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Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything


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#21 ghou2008

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 11:27 PM

Is it possible to include stats weight for weapon speed? thanks

#22 Burglekutt

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 12:34 AM

"this spec will beat out any competitors by several hundred DPS"

Quite the claim, are you referring to other unholy specs or all DK dps specs? Some proof in an EJ thread of this claim would be nice instead of simple hearsay.

#23 diospadre

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 12:37 AM

Unholy.

#24 Consider

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 12:48 AM

Yes, Unholy competitors (and when you still have SotVH and 2p t8, 0/17/54 is definitely at least 150 dps boost over the alternatives. I can link sim/parse evidence if necessary, but I don't think anyone will disagree with that). I edited it to make it a bit more clear.

Is it possible to include stats weight for weapon speed? thanks

Yeah, I put them up there. The reason I didn't bother adding them originally, despite already having them calculated, is due to most people having trouble undertanding exactly what they mean. That, and almost all 2h weapons have the same speed. But, regardless, it's now there.

#25 holycricket

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 01:18 AM

great job Consider!

Im curious though, does the amount of ARpen you have ever push 3/13/55 above 0/17/54 with the new sigil? or will it simply always be inferior until you have 4 piece tier9?
Do i need a special simulator to find this out? or is the difference only in application?

#26 Consider

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 01:40 AM

It's not that 4 piece tier 9 pushes 3/13/55 above 0/17/54. It's that the lack of 2 piece tier 8 - which you won't actually lose until 4 piece tier 9 - does the trick. Just a slight clarification.

But, yes, there is a point with ArP where 3/13/55 will do more dps, even with 2 piece tier 8. What that exact point is, however, has yet to be determined. You're welcome to use Kahorie's (linked in the OP) to calculate it yourself.

I have about ~280 ArP, and 3/13/55 does about 25 dps less in the last time I ran the sim, for what that shows.

#27 Guest_Aeixious_*

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 01:47 AM

Great job :>

#28 Leperchaun

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 01:51 AM

Excellent job Consider, it really needed the update.

One quick question about the rotation though, is there a reason you have OB before BS? I just figured it was just assuming you had desolation up. But on the initial cast, wouldn't you want to make sure it's up before you OB?

#29 Consider

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 02:06 AM

It's 200 strength (via Sigil of Virulence) to your first two Blood Strikes and an auto-attack or two or 3-5% damage (depending on how many points you have in Desolation) to your first Obliterate and an auto-attack.

I can't honestly say which is superior. The difference is probably quite minor, if there is a noticeable one at all (Over the course of an entire fight, it's maybe a single digit dps difference. Maybe. Remember, whichever order you choose, it will only make a difference that very first rotation. Thus even if doing one order over the other is a 2,000 damage gap - extremely doubtful - over the course of a 6 minute fight? That's 6 dps).

What I can say is that the simulator does Obliterate first (due to how the priority works) and that SoV will have a slightly higher uptime if you do Obliterate first (due to how the ICD interacts with when your other Obliterates happen after that first one). Thus the reason I list the rotation as it is. Doing your Blood Strikes first, however, isn't wrong, and I would be surprised if you noticed any difference.

#30 Sellout

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 05:26 AM

Fast questions I figured I would pop this out there for the math dudes.

In terms of DPS pots to pop, wouldn't the Insane strength potions outweigh the speed potions during a heroism? If I am not mistaken, haste from gear [which is dk by dk prolly 5% to 10% on avg] and the heroism already push the Gargs cast time down to 1 second and you cannot push it below that due to global cool down restrictions. Just wanted another set of eyes on this in case I am missing something.

Second question [and a great deal less important given the circumstance] would be, if lets say I just proc a comets trail and do not have access to heroism. Does that get me close enough to the 1 second cast to merit using an insane str potion over a speed potion?

#31 NaeblisHyjal

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 06:14 AM

I was curious which spec would win between the two if each of them had BiS gear, DW Frost or Unholy Obliterate.

I took the gear posted in the Optimal BiS Gear thread, added up all the stats, enchants, gems, and my base character stats. Then I created a character in Kahorie's DK Simulator with that information.

Some things to note:
Talent templates used are the default 17-54 Unholy Oblit and 3-51-17 Frost in Kahorie's DK Simulator
Priorities used are the default Unholy Oblit and Frost priorities in Kahorie's DK Simulator
Both tests are in Blood Presence
DW Test is Fallen Crusader / Razor Ice with Sigil of Awareness
Unholy Test is Fallen Crusader with Sigil of Virulence
I am an orc.
I am a Blacksmith and Jewelcrafter, so I took the Bracer, Belt, and Gauntlet extra gem slots and plugged in +34 Str gems into it.
I used a Nightmare's Tear on items with 1blue/1red with a +6str socket bonus to activate my meta.
I used a 10str / 10crit gem on items with 1yellow/1red with a socket bonus of at least +6str.
Characters have 2piece and 4piece T9 Activated
Characters have Death's Choice and DMC: Greatness Activated
These are 100 Hour tests.

Edit: There are now screenshots of tallied up stat sets under the Optimal BiS Gear thread. These character sheets and results now reflect those screenshots added with the base stats of my orc.


Character stats for 2h ToC:


<character>
	<stat>
		<Strength>2233</Strength>
		<Agility>150</Agility>
		<Intel>32</Intel>
		<Armor>15214</Armor>
		<AttackPower>503</AttackPower>
		<HitRating>370</HitRating>
		<CritRating>807</CritRating>
		<HasteRating>262</HasteRating>
		<ArmorPenetrationRating>300</ArmorPenetrationRating>
		<ExpertiseRating>203</ExpertiseRating>
	</stat>
	<weapon>
		<count>1</count>
		<mainhand>
			<dps>281.7</dps>
			<speed>3.6</speed>
		</mainhand>
		<offhand>
			<dps>0</dps>
			<speed>0</speed>
		</offhand>
	</weapon>

Unholy Obliterate Results:

Ability Total % Landed Hit% Crit% Miss% Average 
Main Hand 583266886 18.1 135353 64.5 35.5 0 4309.2  
Obliterate 528287961 16.4 70659 61.8 38.2 0 7476.6  
Death Coil 432373803 13.4 67289 68.5 31.5 0 6425.6  
Ghoul 393227197 12.2 333601 87.1 12.9 0 1178.7  
Frost Fever 236910740 7.4 107117 100 0 0 2211.7  
Blood Plague 235797270 7.3 107307 100 0 0 2197.4  
Wandering Plague 170450736 5.3 77339 100 0 0 2203.9  
Gargoyle 161314072 5 35524 86.9 13.1 0 4541  
Blood Strike 113933501 3.5 35027 61.2 38.8 0 3252.7  
Blood Caked Blade 92132380 2.9 40609 100 0 0 2268.8  
UB 86474077 2.7 67289 100 0 0 1285.1  
Necrosis 69990684 2.2 135353 100 0 0 517.1  
Icy Touch 62676415 1.9 17568 68.6 31.4 0 3567.6  
Plague Strike 53371602 1.7 17517 55.4 44.6 0 3046.8  
Horn 0  0 16611 0 0 0 0  
DPS 8945 
Total Damage 3220.21m in 100h 
Threat Per Second 5963 
Generated in 112s 
Template: Unholy Oblit 0-17-54 
Priority: Unholy Oblit 
Presence: Blood  
Sigil: Virulence  
RuneEnchant: FallenCrusader 
Pet Calculation: True 

Character Stats for DW Frost TOC

<character>
	<stat>
		<Strength>2036</Strength>
		<Agility>266</Agility>
		<Intel>42</Intel>
		<Armor>15185</Armor>
		<AttackPower>707</AttackPower>
		<HitRating>368</HitRating>
		<CritRating>899</CritRating>
		<HasteRating>225</HasteRating>
		<ArmorPenetrationRating>225</ArmorPenetrationRating>
		<ExpertiseRating>185</ExpertiseRating>
	</stat>
	<weapon>
		<count>2</count>
		<mainhand>
			<dps>216.5</dps>
			<speed>2.6</speed>
		</mainhand>
		<offhand>
			<dps>216.5</dps>
			<speed>2.6</speed>
		</offhand>
	</weapon>

DW Frost Results

Ability Total % Landed Hit% Crit% Miss% Average 
Obliterate 806636892 25.8 67989 35.4 64.6 0 11864.2  
Frost Strike 694700071 22.2 75586 49 51 0 9190.9  
Main Hand 417324119 13.4 161693 50.7 36.4 12.8 2581  
Off Hand 240607626 7.7 161764 50.9 36.3 12.8 1487.4  
Howling Blast 168860141 5.4 15162 11.2 88.8 0 11137.1  
Blood Strike 147851200 4.7 33342 51.3 48.7 0 4434.4  
Blood Plague 141443372 4.5 111406 100 0 0 1269.6  
Frost Fever 133181729 4.3 111457 100 0 0 1194.9  
Necrosis 131580157 4.2 323457 100 0 0 406.8  
Icy Touch 75439517 2.4 17251 39.8 60.2 0 4373.1  
Ghoul 55493211 1.8 65262 87 13 0 850.3  
Blood Caked Blade 55209230 1.8 64748 100 0 0 852.7  
Plague Strike 54017748 1.7 17283 54 46 0 3125.5  
Raz 1779404  0.1 161764 100 0 0 11  
Horn 0  0 5001 0 0 0 0  
DPS 8678 
Total Damage 3124.12m in 100h 
Threat Per Second 5148 
Generated in 87s 
Template: Frost 3-51-17 
Priority: Frost 
Presence: Blood  
Sigil: Awareness  
RuneEnchant: FallenCrusader / Razorice 
Pet Calculation: True 

As you can see based on the BiS gear posted in the Optimal BiS gear for each spec Unholy Obliterate wins 8945DPS to 8678DPS. I was under the impression the DW Frost was supposed to win in the end, but the sim shows other wise.

If anyone else has tried this, gotten different results, or find that my math on character stats are wrong please feel free to let me know.

I just wanted to post my findings here, and I am sorry if this was already posted.

#32 dr_AllCOM3

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 12:27 PM

Oddly enough, Unholy outperforms Blood in Kahorie's sim, both pre and post 4p t9. It probably undervalues Hysteria, DRW, and cooldown stacking in general - one of Blood's strengths. It's certainly undervaluing (or overvaluing) something, as there's yet to be any parses reflecting the type of lead the simulator hints at.


It must be the cooldowns. My dps usually skyrockets when I get a good combo like BL+DRW+Hysteria. In almost every fight there are small interruptions and they often fit the DRW timer very well. The sim doesn't stack them.

#33 haley

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 12:44 PM

Contents
[TABLE]Set Bonus | APE
T7-2p | 77
T7-4p | 212
T8-2p | 110
T8-4p | 144
T9-2p | 133
T9-4p | 626[/TABLE]


Well, this is confusing. Would a rule of thumb look like this (according to this table) ? :

T9 4P > T9 2P + T8 2P > T7 4P > T8 2P + T7 2P > T8 4P

#34 Damyou

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 01:05 PM

I've had a read through this thread and I have to say, I'm switching back to unholy now to give this a try so thanks for the solid info on it.

One question though, why 4/5 Necrosis when it has been documented as a fairly low increase in dps compared to other talents. My suggestion would be that since auto-attack is such a big proportion of the dps in this spec then would it not make sense to drop the 2 points that you can spare out of necrosis into Icy Talons?

Feel free to tell me if i'm wrong as I don't have the inclination to do sim tests etc but I would have thought that the extra melee hits would be an improvement?

#35 Consider

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 01:27 PM

Icy Talons does not stack with Imp Icy Talons from a frost DK or Windfury from a shaman. Since it's assumed you have one of those two buffs as is, putting a couple points into IT is rather useless.

Well, this is confusing. Would a rule of thumb look like this (according to this table) ? :

T9 4P > T9 2P + T8 2P > T7 4P > T8 2P + T7 2P > T8 4P


What's confusing about it? T7 4p has always been an amazing set bonus. Remember, those APE values are only the set bonuses, not the set bonus plus the stats (hence why T8 2P + T8 4P does actually beat T7 4P or T8 2P + T7 2P).

In terms of DPS pots to pop, wouldn't the Insane strength potions outweigh the speed potions during a heroism? If I am not mistaken, haste from gear [which is dk by dk prolly 5% to 10% on avg] and the heroism already push the Gargs cast time down to 1 second and you cannot push it below that due to global cool down restrictions. Just wanted another set of eyes on this in case I am missing something.

I don't believe haste from gear and heroism already push the Gargoyle down to the gcd (50% haste on a 2 second cast does not make for a 1 second cast time, remember) or, if it does, that the Gargoyle actually has a 1 second gcd limit. I could be mistaken, though. Haven't really seen much testing on the subject, but it would be interesting to know.

Regardless, It's not all about the Gargoyle. 500 haste is far, far, far more dps for your personally - and for your Ghoul - than 120 Strength. It's the equivalent of ~750 AP compared to ~350 AP, which is a huge gap. Even if your Garg benefits from the latter over the former, you benefit from the former much more. And since you will always be your highest source of damage, it's a no brainer.

#36 Grigori

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 03:12 PM

The 1 second rune refresh reduction in IUP doesn't provide as much dps as one would expect it to in PvE due to the grace period of runes.

Hard to explain, but hope this helps: When a rune refreshes itself, you essentially have a two second window where as long as you use it in those two seconds, it will come back up ten seconds from when it originally refreshed - not ten seconds after when you actually used it. Think of it as below:

For purposes of this example, let's say all of your runes except one Blood rune are ignored.
0 seconds - Blood Strike, Blood rune goes on CD
10 seconds - Blood rune comes off CD
11 seconds - Blood Strike, Blood rune goes on CD
20 seconds - Blood rune comes off CD

You see, in that example (which is exactly how it works), the rune actually refreshes in nine seconds after the first use. Thus a rune will refresh in 8 to 10 seconds, depending on how long after it comes off CD you use it. What IUP does is make a rune refresh in 8 to 9 seconds, depending on how long after it comes off CD you use it. So in the scenario above, it would refresh one second quicker initially, but that's all. So it does give some benefit, but it's not actually as much as you think - it's certainly not 11% more rune based damage/11% runic power generated. If it was, that on top of the haste would make it actually be worth using as Unholy.

Or such is my understanding of it.

For IUP (and haste in Cataclysm) to be truly effective, that grace period needs to scale as well. The grace period is essential (otherwise you're punished if you are mid GCD when a rune comes up, or if have even the slightest bit of lag, and so on), and the fact that it actually gets smaller with IUP is kinda nonsensical.


Your description of the IUP mechanics is accurate, but your interpretation (bolded above) is not. IUP will reduce your rune cooldown by 1 sec on every rune cooldown, not just the initial. In the above example, your Blood rune will come back 18 sec after its initial usage with IUP. The catch is that the reduced 1-sec grace period means that if your rotation uses runes asymmetrically between rune sets (most commonly BS+BS/OB and PS+IT/OB for Unholy), you have no leeway for latency/reaction delay (so if you have a 0.5-sec latency/reaction delay, your rune will effectively cool down in 9.5 sec instead of 9).

Rotations with symmetrical rune usage between rune sets, on the other hand, will have a 1-sec grace period for latency/reaction delay to get the full benefit (9-sec runes) out of IUP. Currently there is only one known competitive spec/rotation (Unholy DW DC spam) that has symmetrical rune usage to take full advantage of IUP; unfortunately, it is the one spec/rotation Blizzard intends to kill off (Ghostcrawler quote from his recent one-line post: "Die Shadowfrost die!").

#37 Sellout

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 06:13 PM

I don't believe haste from gear and heroism already push the Gargoyle down to the gcd (50% haste on a 2 second cast does not make for a 1 second cast time, remember) or, if it does, that the Gargoyle actually has a 1 second gcd limit. I could be mistaken, though. Haven't really seen much testing on the subject, but it would be interesting to know.

Regardless, It's not all about the Gargoyle. 500 haste is far, far, far more dps for your personally - and for your Ghoul - than 120 Strength. It's the equivalent of ~750 AP compared to ~350 AP, which is a huge gap. Even if your Garg benefits from the latter over the former, you benefit from the former much more. And since you will always be your highest source of damage, it's a no brainer.



Thank you for the clarification. I think part of the thing that created a question on my part was the cast time which I assumed to be 1.5 seconds from wowhead, so there's where the oversight occurred.

#38 Orlgin

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 01:21 AM

As requested, I have done a long simulation to determine the stat weights of the DW Obliterate build 0/18/53. Here are the stats I used:

<character>
<stat>
<Strength>1585</Strength>
<Agility>326</Agility>
<Intel>58</Intel>
<Armor>14431</Armor>
<AttackPower>613</AttackPower>
<HitRating>327</HitRating>
<CritRating>641</CritRating>
<HasteRating>372</HasteRating>
<ArmorPenetrationRating>30</ArmorPenetrationRating>
<ExpertiseRating>201</ExpertiseRating>
</stat>
<weapon>
<count>2</count>
<mainhand>
<dps>178.9</dps>
<speed>2.6</speed>
</mainhand>
<offhand>
<dps>179.0</dps>
<speed>2.5</speed>
</offhand>
</weapon>
<EP><base>50</base></EP>
<Set>
<T72PDPS>0</T72PDPS>
<T74PDPS>0</T74PDPS>
<T82PDPS>1</T82PDPS>
<T84PDPS>1</T84PDPS>

Trinkets include Greatness and Old God. Chaotic Skyflare Diamond was used.

EP:50 | AttackPower | 100
EP:50 | Strength | 327
EP:50 | Agility | 91
EP:50 | CritRating | 140
EP:50 | HasteRating | 216
EP:50 | ArmorPenetrationRating | 144
EP:50 | ExpertiseRating | 226
EP:50 | BeforeMeleeHitCap<8% | 337
EP:50 | AfterMeleeHitCap | 239
EP:10 | WeaponDPS | 475
EP:0.1 | WeaponSpeed | 19672
EP: | 2T7 | 5333
EP: | 4T7 | 15666
EP: | 2T8 | 10333
EP: | 4T8 | 9000
EP: | 2T9 | 13833
EP: | 4T9 | 52666
| Template | OB001853
| Priority | Unholy Oblit
| Presence | Blood
| Sigil | Virulence
| RuneEnchant | FallenCrusader / FallenCrusader
| Pet Calculation | True

As you can see, the stat weights for the DW Unholy are different from the 2-Hand Unholy versions. Haste is very strong. A version that has more ArP will have a higher Armor Penetration weight.

Using the 2H stats listed for BiS on this thread, using 200ms latency, this was my sim result:

DPS 9144
Total Damage 3291.92m in 100h
Threat Per Second 5991
Generated in 913s
Template: OB001853
Priority: Unholy Oblit
Presence: Blood
Sigil: Virulence
RuneEnchant: FallenCrusader / FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation: True

Edit: I realize that the DW weapons would have different stats than the 2H that was used. I just copied the stats and used Frost's weapons instead. A better comparison would alter the stats based on the change of weapons. My apologies for that bit of inaccuracy. I also forgot to remove the Draenei bonus from the buffs section.

Edit2: The corrected version is further down the page in a later post.
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#39 Consider

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 03:41 AM

DW Stat Weights added. Also fixed an error in the haste stat weights for the previously listed numbers which was undervaluing haste.

@Sellout | Gargoyle Strike - Spell - World of Warcraft is the Gargoyle Strike you want to look at on Wowhead. The others, some of which are indeed 1.5s cast times, belong to various npcs - Gargoyles in Naxx, Auchenai Crypts, etc.

@Grigori | Yeah, I knew there was something wrong in that post about ten seconds after I posted it. I just wasn't quite sure what. Thanks for pointing out my obvious (in hindsight ><) error. Regardless, that is the reason why I did not include it here. The primary problem with Shadowfrost and such variants isn't so much IUP as it is Glyph of Icy Touch (in combination with Chill of the Grave). It's that mass RP which continues to cause issues. 25 RP from 1 rune is flawed in many ways.

#40 Sellout

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 03:49 AM

@Sellout | Gargoyle Strike - Spell - World of Warcraft is the Gargoyle Strike you want to look at on Wowhead. The others, some of which are indeed 1.5s cast times, belong to various npcs - Gargoyles in Naxx, Auchenai Crypts, etc.


Yup that's exactly where the confusion came from, the multiple listings etc. Thanks for helping sort that out, its always good to have a second set of eyes on things.




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