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Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything


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#41 Max zero

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 07:11 AM

As requested, I have done a long simulation to determine the stat weights of the DW Obliterate build 0/18/53. Here are the stats I used:


Okay now that is impressive. 9.1k DPS without T9 set bonuses and what looks like Ulduar level gear (if I'm reading it right).

Since your using Blood Presence for DPS you could drop the 2 points in IUP and fill out WP and Deso.

#42 sweberry

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 10:43 AM

@Orlgin: Exactly what build are you using? Seing the post above me I'm curious if you didn't use WP. Octopi stated earlier in the DW thread that he finds WP to be a low dps per point value (~2% 3/3) which surprises me. Using IUP is probably still as always a preference and I would never go without it if I could possibly get it - but is WP really the place to take the points from?

Also impressed by the output from a non-ToT DW build; would love to see a percentage of total damage from each skill (do Kahorie's list this?) to show how much is Obli and how much is DC (again Octopi stated he has around 14% Obli-damage and 24% DC).

#43 Orlgin

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 01:51 PM

There were two sections to that post. The first (stat weights) used the stats listed. The second has sim DPS value that was created using the BiS stats which are listed earlier in the thread.

I used the same setup as the one earlier in the thread for BiS. That includes both 2pc and 4pc T9. I used the setup NaeblisHyjal suggested in his post. I just forgot to do two things: 1) Change the stats a little since the 1H weapons would have different stats than the 2H and 2) Remove the Draenei bonus as he was an Orc. The purpose was to compare Unholy, Frost, and DW Unholy using the same statset which was best in slot. When I have more time, I'll edit the stats to reflect the new weapons, remove the Draenei bonus and post the result.

Edit: What a difference bad 1H itemization makes:

DPS 8829
Total Damage 3178.5m in 100h
Threat Per Second 5781
Generated in 882s
Template: OB001853
Priority: Unholy Oblit
Presence: Blood
Sigil: Virulence
RuneEnchant: FallenCrusader / FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation: True

This suggests that DW and 2H are roughly the same DPS in Best In Slot Gear. Good to know.
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#44 bpcatt1

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 03:47 PM

I've recently started using the 3/13/55 2H spec after reading this post. I've already had several DK's I've raided with ask me about it... so very good job with the content in the OP.

After having great success with a GoD blood and GoD DW frost spec and rotation, I'm going to try it with the aforementioned unholy spec tomorrow in ToC (our 10-man night is Wednesday). If someone has already simulated 3/13/55 with GoD or has tried it and can link parses, I'd love to see them before I start experimenting.

I'll try to get some stuff posted on Thursday so the theory/math guys can look over it and check for any surprises in addition to getting a critique of the damage breakdowns to see if GoD warrants more research.

#45 sweberry

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 04:03 PM

I was kinda guessing that already Orlgin, but I did notice the previous poster didn't so good that you point it out. I'm still curious about the damage-spread between skills though! Is the itemization really that bad when it puts them approx. at the same dps though.

I'm actually curious how RoCinderglacier would do for UH DW, I'm not assuming it'd be at the same dps but still.

#46 bjados

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 04:51 PM

Consider, what source or post are you quoting your stat weights from?

You suggest they are the currently accepted stat weights, but Zerack's Optimizer contains some values which are quite different. Has he and the hive-mind behind EP values agreed upon these weights recently, and simply not updated his app? If this is the case, Norg's BiS list will also currently be incorrect, and linking to it in this thread would be counter-productive, as they use a different weight scale than that which you provided.

This isn't meant to be a flame, I'm just trying to help steer the min/maxing in the right direction. I have great respect for you and the others for their time and contributions toward the topic.

#47 Consider

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 05:06 PM

I simply used the default 2H set in Kahorie's, set it to 1000 hours, and then ran the EP calculations.

I noticed after the fact that they differed slightly from Zerack's, however not significantly so. The ArP values he uses are slightly lower (and that's simply due to the nature of ArP - it depends heavily on how much you already have, and I think Kahorie's default 2H set has 300), and his haste values for 0/17/54 are kinda absurdly high (not quite sure why that's the case), but otherwise, they're all within 10% of one another, and it doesn't change the order of the stats. Make sure you're looking at Zerack's latest version, as his older versions have outdated/incorrect stat weights.

In the end, however, your best bet is to always calculate stats based on your own gear. Although ArP is the most prominent example, all stats fluctuate in value depending on how much of that stat and of others you already have.

I am very confident in saying that whatever weights you personally get, they will resemble these very closely - and these themselves resemble Zerack's (haste aside. Still boggles me why his is so high for 0/17/54. Main reason I didn't use his values, not that I don't trust them - the rest seem fine - but that seems kinda off) almost exactly.

Edit: Also, although I appreciate it, there's really no reason to post "Good guide" and nothing else or those sorts of things. You'll probably just end up getting an infraction. Critcism/discussion/numbers/etc are the sorts of things you should be posting ^^

#48 Meygaera

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 06:33 PM

I've recently started using the 3/13/55 2H spec after reading this post. I've already had several DK's I've raided with ask me about it... so very good job with the content in the OP.

After having great success with a GoD blood and GoD DW frost spec and rotation, I'm going to try it with the aforementioned unholy spec tomorrow in ToC (our 10-man night is Wednesday). If someone has already simulated 3/13/55 with GoD or has tried it and can link parses, I'd love to see them before I start experimenting.

I'll try to get some stuff posted on Thursday so the theory/math guys can look over it and check for any surprises in addition to getting a critique of the damage breakdowns to see if GoD warrants more research.


I ran the sim for this scenario a while back in the old unholy thread. That was with an older sim that didn't roll diseases with the highest AP diseases, only the initial ones. The newest version 1.0.7.0 does however. I reran the sim with the following: 100h, 2h ulduar gear template, blood presence, sigil of virulence (the str helps in favor of a GoD spec), FC rune and unholy oblit priority. 0/17/54 was ran with 5/5 necrosis 3/5 desolation 0/2 IUP 0/1 Frenzy. 3/13/55 was exactly the same with the 1 additional pt in unholy spent in desolation. Lastly, the reason I subbed out GotG was because in my previous post in the old thread, subbing GoD for GotG was always more dps than subbing GoDD out.

0/17/54 GoDD,GotG,GoOB
7104

0/17/54 GoD,GoDD, GoOB
7169

3/13/55 GoDD, GotG, GoOB
7101

3/13/55 GoD, GoDD, GoOB
7191


With the new sim, rolling diseases with the highest AP yields higher DPS when using GoD. One final note, the standard 2h ulduar gear template does not have any trinkets selected. Using trinkets with Str/AP procs would help in favor of a GoD build.

#49 bpcatt1

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 06:42 PM

Thank you for the information. I'll swap out GotG for GoD and try to pick up SoV before the raid to provide slightly better test results. Once I get the parse posted, I'll try and be diligent about the various circumstances of the fights so everyone will have a better baseline and look more at timing of events, etc.

#50 bjados

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 07:16 PM

I was more concerned with the Hit (To Spell Cap) value. Under 3-13-55, your value is 0.57 whereas Zerack gives 1.67 for the same spec. This trend is actually common for all the builds you list. Depending on whether I use your or his EP values essentially decides if a build should be capped at hit level or capped at spell level, a difference of three or four pieces of gear with quick simulations. I can't wrap my head around how important it is to make sure you never miss an IT or DC, so I don't know which value to put more faith into. I've tried to use Kahorie's Sim to generate EP values for myself, but I have a fairly limited understanding of how it is calculated, and don't particularly trust my own results.

In the mean time, it still stands that Norg is using Zerack's values, and therefore the BiS gear that he lists do not follow your stat weights. One of them will eventually need to be corrected.

Edit: I just took a look at Kahorie's Google Code page and read * EP Mode: Spell hit rating was evaluated too low. With default 50 hit rating, it would over cap. Problem corrected. For 2H spec, the Spell hit value is doubled. under his very latest release (within 28 hours). I don't know if this was the source of some miscalculations or the coming of some new ones, but I'm guessing EP values may need to be reworked again.

#51 testament0221

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 10:12 PM

So has anyone switched to ob UH from blood that could share their results? Currently blood atm, but was wondering if switching to UH would result in a dps loss? The main reason I'm thinking about switching is to provide the sp buff to casters, as we currently don't have an active boomkin, and I would like the locks to save curse for CoD. So I'm curious if the dps gain from EP to the raid would be enough to offset any personal dps I may or may not lose. In addition, I raid with a enh shaman, so our buffs are a bit redundant atm.

#52 frmorrison

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 10:58 PM

So I'm curious if the dps gain from EP to the raid would be enough to offset any personal dps I may or may not lose. In addition, I raid with a enh shaman, so our buffs are a bit redundant atm.


You would likely go do a few hundred personal dps, maybe more if you aren't used to the spec. However, you would gain raid dps, since CoD is very good dps for Locks and trash pulls would go faster. Also any spriests and other DKs get 30% better disease damage.

#53 Consider

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 11:04 PM

That spell hit error makes sense. Afterall, once you're melee hit capped, it only takes 1% to cap spells, so I can easily see the EP calculator going over. It's certainly something I'll look into and fix asap.

As to the rest of it though, I'm still not completely confident in Zerack's numbers to use them (no offense to him, of course). There's the huge haste outlier for 0/17/54, which seems rather odd. There's the fact that in his calculator 0/17/54 and 3/13/55 both have the exact same value for ArP, which obviously cannot be right since 3/13/55 has a larger portion of its damage as physical - and thus a larger amount will be affected by ArP, making it more valuable than it is for 0/17/54. Similar situation for agility. Opposite situation for spell hit - where it should be higher rated in 0/17/54, but it's equal. So on.

I'm not saying my numbers are perfect or that his are horrible. Obviously neither is the case. What I am saying is that, logically speaking, there are a lot of questions about his numbers, and I would rather not put something in the OP which seems so improbable to be right. My numbers, which may not be perfect, at least make sense in relation to one another, and I know how I came to generate them, thus I have a bit more confidence in them.

Anyways, all of that said, I will do my best to work on some more accurate numbers (or if they are already accurate, then some additional calculations to support them). When I have some time, I'll also generate "CC" stat weights (the current ones are based on end of Ulduar gear, which is what most people are probably at. I doubt most people have more than 1-3 pieces of CC gear at this point of time. With all of CC being out this week, however, I know there are some people who will be rapidly gearing up, so they're need numbers better suited to their gear level).

If anyone has stat weights which seem logical and accurate, by all means, feel free to share them. But for now, Zerack's just don't seem to fit, so I have to rely on my own.

#54 pessadilla

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 03:05 AM

On the BiS thread for 3/13/55, I see Bandit's Insignia; but in T9, I dont see Mjolnir Runestone. Where can I find information on how does Runestone compare with Insignia?

#55 sweberry

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 08:08 AM

Also any spriests and other DKs get 30% better disease damage.


Just _thinking_ about it, no supporting numbers, I think the fact that you have no UH in your raid atm means that the Crypt Fever-gain might actually be enough to cover the dps-drop from switching to blood from unholy. Since it's a buff blood usually has from a fellow unholy DK otherwise etc.

EDIT: This was aimed at testament0221, just had to quote you frmorrison!

#56 forecore

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 01:03 PM

[TABLE]Set Bonus | 0/17/54 | 3/13/55 | 0/18/53 DW
T7-2p | 73 | 77 | 53
T7-4p | 222 | 212 | 157
T8-2p | 88 | 110 | 103
T8-4p | 73 | 144 | 90
T9-2p | 120 | 129 | 138
T9-4p | 489 | 626 | 527[/TABLE]


how could 3/13/55 benefit more from t8-2p than 0/17/54, which has dc as main dmg source?

#57 Consider

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 01:12 PM

If I copied my results over wrong. Knowing my own chance for messing up, however, I screenshotted all of the results and saved them, just in case. Fixed =p.

When I leave for classes/work later today, I plan to run some new EP calculations anyways.

Also, to the above poster looking for trinket information, the proc values are listed over at http://elitistjerks....14/#post1353398 . Those are simply the proc values - so you need to multiply out the passive EP value to add to that number to see which trinket wins out.

Edit: Actually, come to look at it, I'm not sure if those numbers are outdated or not. Greatness averages out to 100 str as its proc, as most people know, so you would think it's EP value to be in the 300s, while it's in the 200s. Could be an isolated thing. Regardless, Runestone is definitely better than Bandit's in terms of its proc - the first scales with gear while the latter doesn't. Bandit's, however, has the superior passive stats.

#58 Sealpup

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 01:53 PM

Lastly, the reason I subbed out GotG was because in my previous post in the old thread, subbing GoD for GotG was always more dps than subbing GoDD out.

0/17/54 GoDD,GotG,GoOB 7104
0/17/54 GoD,GoDD, GoOB 7169
3/13/55 GoDD, GotG, GoOB 7101
3/13/55 GoD, GoDD, GoOB 7191

With the new sim, rolling diseases with the highest AP yields higher DPS when using GoD. One final note, the standard 2h ulduar gear template does not have any trinkets selected. Using trinkets with Str/AP procs would help in favor of a GoD build.


Heya!

Stars may have aligned for me, Death's Verdict dropped and I received it. Since I have been having some success with glyph of disease in both dual wield frost and blood, it makes me wonder how well the diseases would scale when all the procs that take place.

Namely:
2x tier 9 yields 180 strength
death's verdict 450 strength
greatness card 300 strength
sigil of virulence 200 strength
fallen crusader by 15%

Do you know if the simulator calculates the best case scenario with glyph of disease, i.e. it keeps rolling on diseases when all of the +strength procs take place, for the duration of the fight? If not, I wonder if glyph of disease spec for Unholy 3/13/55 would be viable, since the sims you have previously calculated produce already very close results.

Also, if we take into the account that ghoul is close to 10% of our DPS most fights, whereas death coil is roughly 8-9%, would it be more benefitial to sub out dark death for disease instead? (disease + obliterate + ghoul for 3/13/55, 2x t8, 2x t9, greatness, death's verdict, virulence) In addition, invest one point in ghoul frenzy instead of desolation or necrosis.

#59 testament0221

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 03:01 PM

^^^ Given those results, it's obvious that losing GotG isn't that large of a loss, as dps was gained once it was replaced. So what about the possibility of replacing it with GoUB? As it stands now, DC is our #1 dps skill, so this would only buff that even more, coupled with 2pT8, GoDD, SotVH and Morbiity, we would have maximum DC damage.

#60 sweberry

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 03:54 PM

whereas death coil is roughly 8-9%


... What?




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