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[Theorycraft] Correct Way to Model Non-Static Trinkets mathematically?


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#1 Lurchington

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 06:37 PM

Well, this is something I've recently run into, and in every spreadsheet I've been able to find so far (searching EJ forums for "spreadsheet), hasn't really addressed the issue of modeling certain trinkets.

What I thought I'd do here, was to model a few types of trinkets, and see if there's a consesus on the method used, in order to at least make some the math consistent. As a boilerplate, I don't have access to the wow forums anymore (blocked) so if there's some good information posted in any particular subforum, repost it here.

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On use, static +amount added for X time.

Example, Blessed Prayer Beads, Talisman of Ephemeral Power:

I currently have this modeled as just chain-activating as it leaves cooldown, not realistic, but simplest to calculate:

Blessed Prayer Beads, 190 +healing added for 20 seconds (cooldown is 2 minutes).
190*(20/120)= 31.667 (repeating of course, oh Leeroy)
So if you chain activate blessed prayer beads, you're adding around 32 +healing over the long term. This doesn't address the fact that no one chain activates it, meaning it should be a bit less. However, the fact that it's activated in periods of heavy casting means that it's effectively worth a bit more, so it may be a wash.
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"Unstable Power"

The Zandalarian Hero trinket rewards for the heart of hakkar.

I don't have a good way of modelling this yet, but I suppose I'd do an average of the bonus multiplied by the ratio of which it's up.

The ZH Charm for example adds 400 +heal, subtracting 50 for each use (it runs out after 20 seconds), cooldown 2 minutes.

(400+350+300+250+200+150+100+50)/8 = 225*(20/120) = 37.5

However, The fact that the large bonuses interact so well with multiplicative effects (Arcane Power, etc) mean this should be overall a bit higher in value.

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On use, Scaling event X occurs


Example: Kiss of the Spider, Fetish of the Sand Reaver.

This is when we get into scaling issues, that make this such an interesting mathematical exercise.

Let's say for Fetish of the Sandreaver. which on use has 70% threat reduction.

If we are currently generating threat value X threat/sec, and wish to maintain that same threat value during the use of the fetish.

Xnew threat/sec = (.3 * Xold threat/sec) * 3.333, meaning we're able to multiply our current threat output by 3.333 and maintain the same threat rate.

So, if your DPS is 300, for 20 seconds your new DPS (assuming you aren't increasing your threat at a higher rate than the increase in your DPS) can be up to 1000, so your new DPS can be modeled at (300*160+1000*20) / 180 or 377.778 DPS.

If this is melee DPS, we can multiply the 77.778 DPS difference by 14 to get attack power, yielding 1088.889 attack power on this trinket. I don't have a good approximation on this trinket for +damage however.

That's a few I have, any comments or corrections? Or anyone have other trinkets they have models for?

#2 chalon

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 06:46 PM

Well uh your Fetish of the Sand Reaver calcs are off in that you're assuming that you can suddenly do 3x the DPS just because you aren't threat-limited for 20s.

In any event, the method you describe for Blessed Prayer Beads is precisely what I use for Earthstrike and Slayer's Crest.

As for Kiss of the Spider, I model the haste by assuming you tie it directly to your Blade Flurry. So in the haste table, I have SnD base as 1.3 as 87.5% of your haste, and the Blade Flurry haste of 1.56 at 12.5%. If you have Kiss of the Spider, the Blade Flurry haste jumps from 1.56 to 1.872 for those 15s.

#3 Kalman

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 06:52 PM

The way I would model burst trinkets, especially multiplicative burst trinkets, is by calculating their combined effects, then calculating a weighted average value to determine total output.

E.G.: Earthstrike, Blade Flurry, and Adrenaline Rush. Assume they're always popped synchronously (close enough to true for me, at least), you can gather the following.

Per 360 seconds, you will have:

15 seconds of ES/BF/AR
30 seconds of ES/BF
15 seconds of just ES (the leftover 5 after BF ends from each of the three activations per 6 minutes)
300 seconds of default DPS

So, take 1/24(ES/BF/AR DPS) + 1/24 (ES DPS) + 1/12 (ES/BF DPS) + 5/6 (default DPS), and you have your overall DPS average.

You can modify the weighting factors for different lengths of encounter, as well. It's basically the same method Deathwing uses to handle execute DPS (80/20).
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#4 Fiola

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 07:01 PM

I think a better way of modeling the trinkets is to simply think of them as static bonuses.


Take the ToEP: 175 +dmg/healing for 15 seconds.

Assuming normal spell casts, that's 175/3.5 = 50 bonus DPS/HPS for 15 seconds, or 750 bonus damage/healing done, assuming you cast for the full 15 seconds. (This will be higher if you're using spells with a cast time reduction from talents/gear) This is the equivalent of a 29 +dmg/healing trinket - except that it only takes 15 seconds of casting to get the ToEP's full benefit, whereas you must chaincast for 90 seconds for the 29 +dmg trinket to have the same benefit.

(Edit: DoTs/HoTs will modify this further, since each will get the full damage benefit, but only take 1.5 seconds to cast. ie: 10 renews cast in 15 seconds would yield 1750 bonus healing, vs. 750 from casting direct heals, from the ToEP. )


The ZHC is trickier to model, since it depends on how many spells you cast - but you can come up with a min/max value for it by looking at the slowest and fastest spells you can cast for its duration. Same for the Talisman of Ascendence.



For the threat reduction trinket, I don't think you can consider it as an AP/+dmg boost. Rather, for the time period it's up, it allows you to push as much DPS as you can at a highly reduced level of threat. Say you can do 500 DPS going all out. When the trinket is activated, you can go at your 500 DPS potential, and generate threat as if you're doing 150 DPS. You essentially get 350 DPS* (trinket duration) of threat free damage - great for an aggro sensitive fight, and worth more the higher your max DPS is. Assuming, of course, that you can't reach your max DPS due to threat ceilings.

#5 Lurchington

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 07:07 PM

Well uh your Fetish of the Sand Reaver calcs are off in that you're assuming that you can suddenly do 3x the DPS just because you aren't threat-limited for 20s.

In any event, the method you describe for Blessed Prayer Beads is precisely what I use for Earthstrike and Slayer's Crest.

As for Kiss of the Spider, I model the haste by assuming you tie it directly to your Blade Flurry. So in the haste table, I have SnD base as 1.3 as 87.5% of your haste, and the Blade Flurry haste of 1.56 at 12.5%. If you have Kiss of the Spider, the Blade Flurry haste jumps from 1.56 to 1.872 for those 15s.

I know that, but I guess I was trying to put down the max you could do without increasing your aggro generation rate.

You can't simply convert 14ap to 1dps. After skills, haste, procs, etc it ends up being much more. For instance I require about 5ap for 1dps increase.

That I did not know. I guess I'd have to start looking at the ammount of damage added to each auto-attack swing via attack power.

I think a better way of modeling the trinkets is to simply think of them as static bonuses.

I think that matches up to what I have down.

#6 Lurchington

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 05:13 PM

I'm experimenting with using two parameters to encapsulate the fact that oftentimes, you burst cast on use of a timered trinket.

Is there a mathematical basis for:

Casts_Per_Minute
Burst_Casts_Per_Minute

for something like Blessed Prayer Beads?

If I say that "normal" CPM is 12 and BCPM is say, 20

Then I could model (Heal_Bonus)*(BCPM/ACTIVE_TIME_PER_MINUTE) / (CPM * Minutes_Of_Cooldown)

as 190*(20/3)/(2*12) = 52.778 +healing bonus.

This looks like it's going to always overvalue on use trinkets, but is there a good way to account for the way people change their activities based on cooldowns?

#7 Fiola

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 05:51 PM

This looks like it's going to always overvalue on use trinkets, but is there a good way to account for the way people change their activities based on cooldowns?

Me, I'd just calculate what the maximum possible benefit from a trinket is, and then mebbe throw in a "realistic" scenario. (PvP preventing you from standing still, etc), just so you just get an idea of how useful a given trinket is.

The whole situational use of trinkets makes it tough to compare them with just math, since it depends on so many variables. = P

#8 Avellyr

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 07:10 PM

It gets even more interesting with trinkets like the Jom Gabbar, where you basically have to map out exactly what you're going to do for those 20 seconds to get maximum effect out of it. It's good to be a hunter, because you can freely swap trinkets in combat, which forces me to take into account the 30 second equip timer on top of everything else, but allows me to use a superior static trinket when my earthstrike is on cooldown.

#9 Lurchington

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 07:12 PM

It gets even more interesting with trinkets like the Jom Gabbar, where you basically have to map out exactly what you're going to do for those 20 seconds to get maximum effect out of it. It's good to be a hunter, because you can freely swap trinkets in combat, which forces me to take into account the 30 second equip timer on top of everything else, but allows me to use a superior static trinket when my earthstrike is on cooldown.

Do you use itemrack for this? And if so, is it as simple as queuing up the new trinkets and it swaps automatically when you have that split-second of being out of combat?

#10 Flavahbeast

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 07:39 PM

It gets even more interesting with trinkets like the Jom Gabbar, where you basically have to map out exactly what you're going to do for those 20 seconds to get maximum effect out of it. It's good to be a hunter, because you can freely swap trinkets in combat, which forces me to take into account the 30 second equip timer on top of everything else, but allows me to use a superior static trinket when my earthstrike is on cooldown.

Do you use itemrack for this? And if so, is it as simple as queuing up the new trinkets and it swaps automatically when you have that split-second of being out of combat?

the trinket mod bundled with equipmanager (lol) does this, the trinket mod bundled with itemrack didn't last I checked

#11 Kir

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 10:23 PM

You can't simply convert 14ap to 1dps. After skills, haste, procs, etc it ends up being much more. For instance I require about 5ap for 1dps increase.

Does anyone have an excel formula that will calculate this? I'd hate to have to do this math every few weeks when I've made equipment upgrades.
I'm SS/combat spec, but if you also have it for combat dagger, my fellow rogue guild members would like it I'm sure.
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#12 Kalman

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 10:28 PM

Kir, check out Chalon's combat daggers/Valar's combat swords spreadsheets. You can get the values you're looking for out of those by manual manipulation of a couple values.
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#13 Kir

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 10:48 PM

Yea... I was just thinking that, but didn't have those on my work computer here. I have those spreadsheets.

I think I'll spend a little bit of time figuring out some of the break points, like once your 900 atk power and 26 crit, Z atk power = 1 dps and just make a little chart. We have an officer awarded loot system, and had to have this discussion with an officer who had made a calculuation error in determining how good an item was for a guild member.
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#14 Avellyr

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 11:39 PM

Do you use itemrack for this? And if so, is it as simple as queuing up the new trinkets and it swaps automatically when you have that split-second of being out of combat?

Yes, Itemrack will do it. I just modified the script that comes with the mod for swapping your PvP trinkets to work for my trinkets.




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