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#21 Kazanir

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 01:42 PM

The way Gurgthock proselytizes for the expansion you'd think he was a Mormon missionary or something. ;D

I think the major point made earlier is the "fought over a tower because it was there" statement. World PvP is actually remarkably easy to generate as soon as you get a certain number of people in a place such that you know others will be there. Last night a group of Alliance rolled up outside Orgrimmar and started killing the duelers and within about 5 minutes there was a group of about equal size rolling out the gates of Org to chase them off. This repeated itself about 4 times before I had to log off and do some real work. If the PvP objectives do nothing else, it will give you a way to know that there will be people to fight at those locations, which Light's Hope and Cenarion Hold were good for anyway (especially LHC pre-patch.) I think it's a given that the rewards will not be anything very significant, and that based this, I don't think that the faction imbalance is a huge danger.

In DAoC, if you had significant faction imbalance, it created major endgame issues because it severely impacted the gameplay experience for the other 2 realms. Fortunately, no one faction was ever so imbalanced that they could single-handedly wipe the floor with both other factions at once; and with a limited number of PvP objectives available, the amount of hardcore RvR players on a given server was limited just by the amount there was to do (only so many towers to hold, and so on.) In WoW, with only 2 factions, this could be a much bigger issue, but I don't see this new content giving rise to groups that continually (i.e. more than a couple hours at a time) lock down a given tower or a given zone, even with major population imbalances. Alliance significantly outweighs Horde on Sargeras to my knowledge, and yet Virakar never has any trouble enjoying ourselves in BRM or Silithus, or camping boats on any given Tuesday. If factions were more organized around consistent, continuous domination of PvP objectives, this would be a big issue, but I don't see it happening, especially given reasonably mediocre rewards.

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#22 xkmonkey

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 01:56 PM

I think the biggest problem with world PvP is the honour system. The reason hillsbrad was such a big pvp area before the Battlegrounds came out was because there were other people there. It was a pretty decent spot to grind honour. But once the battlegrounds came out, with bonus honour for winning, there just wasn't any way to compete with that with world pvp.

My fondest memories of pvp before the AV and WSG came out were from the Plaguelands and Felwood. Usually in groups of 2-4 of us going around everywhere running into other groups looking for pvp as well. The hillsbrad zerg was always there, and I did spend a lot of time there, but I found myself more worried about the guards then about the horde. The guard zerg just seemed to be what pushed the front lines more than anything else. I still have no idea why some people still claim those fights as some of their fondest memories of world pvp.

I like that Blizzard is moreso trying to just give a small nudge to world PvP, instead of trying to force it. Unfortunately, world pvp comes down to numbers above all else. Geared and skills groups can overcome certain numerical discrepencies, but given enough opposition, all groups will fall. Which is really the reason I like the concept of battlegrounds so much more than world PvP. Groups are even on both sides to an extent.

If I were to redesign the system, I would add ladder system. To stay at the top of ladder, a team shouldn't have to play all the time, but rather beat all other teams consistently.

Either way, when the patch comes out, I'll probably be in EPL ganking horde because there were more alliance or being destroyed because a raid decided to come take out my small group. Could be fun for a bit, but I'm not sure how long it'll keep my interest.

#23 Oneiros

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 02:03 PM

PVP with a chance of paying repair costs vs PVP with even odds and probably more HK's, probably more CPs(honor).. hmm

the honest system right now is pretty dumb, but i dont know how to fix it so i guess i cant really say much. i do think they need to nerf honor earned in bg's though, to encourage more world pvp.

oh and this will make it exponentially more fun, and by fun i mean not fun, to:
1) farm CC rep
2) farm cultist sets
3) do lords/dukes
4) get to AQ
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#24 malthrin

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 02:25 PM

I think this will be fairly popular on some servers (and totally dead on others). A significant segment of the Battleground population isn't particularly enthused about the Honor system and either has better gear or just doesn't care about exalted BGs; they just want a fight, and right now they play Battlegrounds because they're the only place to find one. These are the players that will be drawn out to these new objectives. As long as both sides can regularly field a competitive force, this should be a healthy niche for people that just like to PvP. On the servers where Horde isn't too whipped to leave Org, anyway.

Hopefully the Honor doesn't surpass Battleground honor. If it does, both the previously described segment and the honor farmers will be out in full force, which will likely drop the full weight of the population balance onto the system and smother it before it can start to build a community.

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#25 TheRealJon

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 02:27 PM

I don't know about anyone else but my guild has a blast rolling the top alliance guild on our server sitting in front of the entrance to AQ40, trying to keep us out. I'd love to maybe see some kind of "King of the Hill" type thing in the same vein ... rethinking it, the premise sounds dull, but it will get people out there and that may be all the spark needed to start some type of fire, the more stuff you put out there, the more inclined people will be to take advantage of it ... arena events, world bosses, etc.

#26 Cth

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 02:37 PM

its sounds almost like the notum wars system in anarchy online (which failed). the underpopulated side (on the server i played) just gave up while the big zerg faction runs around with their nice buffed stats (and the more bases you had across zones the bigger you XP modifier was, which resulted in more people starting on the "winning" side). i wonder why someone like blizzard tries to steal an allready dead horse.

maybe its just me, but i think wow just reached the stale point in content, this was a lot faster than in any other mmorpg. blizzard must stop copying/polishing content from other games and invent their own stuff.

#27 frmorrison

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 02:44 PM

Copying/Polishing other's content is fine, as long as it is changed to fit your game. You say Notum Wars failed due to imbalances, who is to say that the Horde (or Alliance is they are the losing side) gets guards to help them? I am sure there are other ways to make a balance, the devs are learning.

What before the final changes before saying content is stale.

#28 Malan

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 02:49 PM

Blizzard doesn't want to force world PvP on anyone, particularly on PvE servers. Their attitude in that regard is clear. That's why they limit it to high-level areas, and that's why they've structured the rewards the way they have.

I dunno, Hillsbrad comes to mind immediately, as you brought up before. What in the hell ever convinced them to place a lvl 20s Horde outpost just a few hundred yards away from an Alliance outpost where most players are mid 30s-low40s?

Edit - on a pvp server this sure as heck forced pvp on me! I learned quickly that hillsbrad is not a place to go for lvling.

#29 Zagzil

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 02:54 PM

This change is nothing exciting, but if leads to even some decent World PvP, I'm all for it. Right now the best you can do is camp Blackrock Mountain and Searing Gorge, and hope you get some decent groups running through.

Either way I have high hopes for Outland. Of course if they put in Ladder rankings for WSG I'll be about 10 times more excited for that than this change.

#30 Agrimat

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 03:23 PM

I don't think that I agree with the population imbalance argument. Most servers have more Alliance than Horde, but it seems there are usually more Horde who are interested in PvP. On my server, for example, there are far more solid Alliance guilds than Horde guilds, but Alliance BG queue times are still extremely fast.

I'm generalizing here, of course.

#31 Maledict

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 03:28 PM

Well, all I can say is that from my experiance, on a very average EU PvE server according to the realm stats, is that world PvP was an utter failure. It consisted of 100+ alliance players, at all times of the day, steam rolling 20 horde players into the very middle of Tarren Mill.

Alliance queue times are up to an hour, and Horde are almost instant, which is the average case I believe.

Hate to sound pessimistic, but on my server, I can only see 2 outcomes : i) World pvp resumes, which results in crushing defeats for the horde simply though numbers, or ii) everyone ignores it, and occasionally the alliance get a buff as a group is bored.

I just think there are bigger issues between the factions that need sorting right now, and adding in something which has a clear and obvious potential to further unbalance that isn't a great thing. I know Blizzard are counting on it, but I *really* don't see Blood elves as restoring the balance that much. At best we'll get a bunch of alts that level up slowly.

#32 Farstrider

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 03:48 PM

You want to make world PvP fun again? Make a couple goblin caravans from a horde town to an alliance town one hour, and from an alliance town to a horde town the next hour. Have the goblin sell goodie bags containing potions, trash, and recipes used by raiding guilds for the first 5 minutes after he arrives safely in the city. If he dies. He resets in the other factions town. People have to defend their potions so they can raid at a cheaper cost, while simultaneously nerfing the other factions ability to raid on the cheap.

Give the goblin 400,000 hit points and the ability to be healed. Put em between Duskwood and Stonard. Tarren mill and Southshore. Kargath and Thorium Point. Cenarion Hold and Marshall's Refuge. Basically within one hop flightpoint from any of the major raiding zones.

This kind of thinking is a good start.

I would like to see the following - PvP ranks requiring a certain exceptionally long quest chain of PvP objectives to be achieved.

For Grunt maybe you need to kill the bird who rules that little Night Elf town near the Horde Lumber Camp, for Warlord kill one of the faction leaders. For High Warlord kill them all. etc.

To try and stem the faction imbalance problem here is what I suggest. Each settlement is made up of a number of nodes, with a flag. When you hold a node, it stops spawning enemy guards, and starts spawning your own guards. The spawn rate is faster if there are more zergers around. The balance should be such that a pro group has a chance to make it to Thrall and take him down, but if horde are organised and defend properly, they don't have a chance.

Also, make the faction leaders drop some decent loot - not ilvl 80 stuff, but some interesting stuff that has use in PvP. Some of the items that drop in raids at the moment could easily also drop from faction leaders - the sorts of things that people refer to as PvP toys.

Random alliance/horde patrols of PvP tagged stuff are good, but no reason to ever kill them is bad - I cannot tell you how excited I was when I first ran across the Alliance Outrider Patrol in the Southern Barrens "wow I bet I get a group quest to kill these guys soon" I thought. And how disappointed was I when I realised there was no point in killing them, and even if I did, I wouldn't get jack shit for it.

So many lost opportunities in my opinion, but there you go.

If anyone's got a better idea than mine for reversing faction imbalance I'd love to hear it....
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#33 Malan

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 03:54 PM

Random alliance/horde patrols of PvP tagged stuff are good, but no reason to ever kill them is bad - I cannot tell you how excited I was when I first ran across the Alliance Outrider Patrol in the Southern Barrens "wow I bet I get a group quest to kill these guys soon" I thought. And how disappointed was I when I realised there was no point in killing them, and even if I did, I wouldn't get jack shit for it.
.

I've always wondered wtf those Alliance outriders were doing in Barrens - no quest to kill them ever presented itself.

#34 Falcon24

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 03:55 PM

If you kill them one of them drops a note that starts a small questline

Of course, good luck getting people of your level in the Barrens together to actually kill them in a reasonable fight instead of outlevelling them and killing them solo for the hell of it some time later.

#35 Zwink

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 04:04 PM

From Blizzard's pov it would appear that whether or not this is a success or failure the difference that it will make is marginal. It's just an extra added bonus for players to have one more thing to do. My biggest concern is the population imbalance on PvP servers and raiding guilds trying to zone into AQ/Naxx and the gankfest that it will become, but that's little issue for something new being added to the game that will give us something else to do if we choose to. The only thing I wish they would add was some cool incentives for doing this, besides CP. I think someone mentioned it earlier in the post, teleport runes to LHC and CH would be awesome.

#36 Decker

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 04:22 PM

Horray! Return of the Tarren Mill zerg! :)

#37 Elendril

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 04:38 PM

looks like it's time to do the 'gather at the flight point to head to the raid zone together' song and dance again. world pvp objectives in the two zones containing the current high-end raid content. coincidence? heh.

#38 frmorrison

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 04:46 PM

looks like it's time to do the 'gather at the flight point to head to the raid zone together' song and dance again. world pvp objectives in the two zones containing the current high-end raid content. coincidence? heh.

Well the two outdoor PvP zones are the only 55-60 zones (Winterspring is 58-60?), so that is target range they want to PvP, and the areas are remote, so low level questers are safe.

#39 Digo

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 05:07 PM

I've been mulling over the idea of a Starcraft MMORPG (or more acurately, a MMOFPS) for a while now. I think WoW would be an interesting testing ground for these concepts.

The game would be like Planetside, which was fun, albeit only for two weeks because there were no longer term goals and no real character advancement. The problem was that there was no way to capture and fortify territory aside from simply bringing in more people to defend it. No NPCs. No guards. Nothing.

Throughout the world, there are bases to capture. These bases would be defended by static defenses and NPC guards. Capturing the base would reset the base under the control of the new faction and respawn all the guards and defenses. Controlling bases earns honor and tokens redeemable for training or items.

To address population imbalances, the guards grow stronger or weaker depending on the realm population and number of bases controlled. So if Terran is the dominant faction on your server, the terran NPC guards are far weaker than Protoss guards, since they are the minority faction. I'm not talking one or two degrees weaker, I mean assrape degrees of difference between the guards. If you have three times as many people, you should be able to deal with more and tougher NPCs. If the population evens out, the guards thin out.

But what is to stop people from only focusing their energies on a single base and making that the center of all warfare? (Sup, Emain Macha and Tarren Mill.) If a base remains captured for an extended period of time without being challenged, NPCs from the opposing factions start spawning and sieging the base. Over time, if players do not interfere, the NPCs will grow increasingly stronger and more numerous to the point that they overrun the base and capture it without the aid of players.

When I say NPCs spawn, I don't just mean waves of footmen. I mean full-scale invasions. Say the zerg are the minority faction and there's a far-off Terran base that hasn't been touched in a while. At first, zerglings start spawning and hurling themselves against the gates. They die, predictably. Six hours later, still no players have bothered to show up. More zerglings spawn, and Hydralisks show up. Six hours later, still no players. Mutalisks and Ultralisks show up. You get the idea.

The problem is, this would only work in a next-gen game engine. The current WoW technology can't handle hundreds of units onscreen at once, evidence the AQ war. Hopefully, whatever game comes next finds a way around this limitation. Hell, RTS games are already doing it.

#40 SquattingCow

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 05:43 PM

I've been mulling over the idea of a Starcraft MMORPG (or more acurately, a MMOFPS) for a while now. I think WoW would be an interesting testing ground for these concepts.

The game would be like Planetside, which was fun, albeit only for two weeks because there were no longer term goals and no real character advancement. The problem was that there was no way to capture and fortify territory aside from simply bringing in more people to defend it. No NPCs. No guards. Nothing.

Throughout the world, there are bases to capture. These bases would be defended by static defenses and NPC guards. Capturing the base would reset the base under the control of the new faction and respawn all the guards and defenses. Controlling bases earns honor and tokens redeemable for training or items.

To address population imbalances, the guards grow stronger or weaker depending on the realm population and number of bases controlled. So if Terran is the dominant faction on your server, the terran NPC guards are far weaker than Protoss guards, since they are the minority faction. I'm not talking one or two degrees weaker, I mean assrape degrees of difference between the guards. If you have three times as many people, you should be able to deal with more and tougher NPCs. If the population evens out, the guards thin out.

But what is to stop people from only focusing their energies on a single base and making that the center of all warfare? (Sup, Emain Macha and Tarren Mill.) If a base remains captured for an extended period of time without being challenged, NPCs from the opposing factions start spawning and sieging the base. Over time, if players do not interfere, the NPCs will grow increasingly stronger and more numerous to the point that they overrun the base and capture it without the aid of players.

When I say NPCs spawn, I don't just mean waves of footmen. I mean full-scale invasions. Say the zerg are the minority faction and there's a far-off Terran base that hasn't been touched in a while. At first, zerglings start spawning and hurling themselves against the gates. They die, predictably. Six hours later, still no players have bothered to show up. More zerglings spawn, and Hydralisks show up. Six hours later, still no players. Mutalisks and Ultralisks show up. You get the idea.

The problem is, this would only work in a next-gen game engine. The current WoW technology can't handle hundreds of units onscreen at once, evidence the AQ war. Hopefully, whatever game comes next finds a way around this limitation. Hell, RTS games are already doing it.

RTS Games are a little different. The per unit polygon counter is lower, and the complexity of the interactions between the mobs is much lower too. Fast forward to WoW. Classes have a bazillon polygons. Almost every class has an AoE spell. And the problem when you're computing on either server or client side is that when you do things like AoE/range checks, collsions etc, the more people you get, the more computational power required to process this stuff. When you get more people on screen, the bandwidth and CPU power needed to process everything scales exponentially, not linearly.

That said, you CAN throw more CPU power at it, but there are limits to this kind of stuff with current linear processing models...

Anyway, back on track: I don't know what to make of this. I'm happy there's nothing to grind towards: everytime something like that comes out, if feel like im behind the 8ball again. It sounds to more more of an encourangement for people to rock up to the zone and go bash stuff rather than really get involved ala bgrounds, but it's a starting point. Might be an idea to get the silithus stuff finished now though...

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