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Playing a Fire mage?


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#1 Hober

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 01:46 PM

Recently in my guild we've had 5 mages who used all be frost respec into fire for a bit of a change from boring old frost :P
It was a joint decision due to the fact that the more fire mages you have, the higher and longer to can get ignite to tick for resulting in some insane and rather disturbing damage.

Spec: http://tinyurl.com/zqe3s

Reasons for blastwave/pyro over flamethrowing: I like to pvp a bit and have full NW so a pyro off a 2nd NW focus (too difficult to stop when chain casting to get a pyro off on the first proc)



Gear: http://ctprofiles.net/62289
http://wow.allakhaza...le.html?1276245
Full nw and a selection of pretty decent +dmg from bwl (currently have both sets of gloves +20 frost because im a cheap bastard :P )



After a short experience in Naxx last night, the mana issue was a real concern. I could cast scorch infinitely but would end in some rather disappointing damage or I could cast fireballs after getting imp. scorch up but it would end in me absolutely rinsing my mana.



- All the mages have combustion one way or the other and activate it at the same time to benefit the most from it. Is this the right thing to do or is better to stagger them?

- What sort of casting chain should I be using on:
~ stationary target
~ additional adds á la Anub/Noth

- Should I use lower rank fireballs to conserve mana?

- I'm using Cirk's Fastcast currently and while it allows me to power out the fireballs/scorches it isnt very forgiving when it comes to clearcasts, now alot of people have said to scorch until you get a clearcast but its nigh on impossible to stop on time to utilise the clearcast. Is there another solution to this?

- I can pump my spirit up to 344 with food buffs, so would it be worthwhile going 3/3 arcane med and dropping one in elemental precision?

- How does ignite stack in practise, the debuff stops at 5 but does it continually build up from that with further crits or is there a cap for an ignite tick?


As it stands I find fire so much more fun, it's actually a spec where it requires you to put in some sort of thinking compared to frost where you could chain cast in a 10-15 minute fight and rarely run out of mana. The lack or survivability is a bit worrying but I'm sure with a few more raids I'll deal with it.

Any help is much appreciated, cheers.

<edit: fixed spec>

#2 Hober

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 03:02 PM

The thing with using 8/8 nw is that it has quite a nice bit of spirit and while the other assortment of equipment I have offers 583 fire damage opposed to 538 in 8/8 nw I think I will still keep using 8/8 until I get a few more nice bits of +dmg stuff.
But I'm stockpiling dkp atm for a tear off nefarian, I'm just hoping our luck continues and we get another next week.
4 tears in a row and counting ;)

#3 Hober

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 07:38 PM

Any more opinions/advice on this? :<

#4 Navaash

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 08:11 PM

4 tears in a row and counting ;)

Tamuf and Zibro are on the way over to murder you now

#5 Quigon

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 10:00 PM

What matters most on fire vs frost is your faction.

#6 Fury

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 01:49 AM

I too am in a similar boat. I am sitting at 7/8 NW now (minus the boots for 6 months now) and have close to 580 in +dmg with about 7% in crit gear. I made most of my gear choices before the mage patch was even in the works and decided to go for NW 8/8 instead of a full damage suite along with choosing to reduce my crit rate for +dmg gear when possible to be able to manage agro better for BWL. Sadly after 1.11 I am regreting my gear choices to a significant degree as NW 8/8 is very restrictive. But alas after putting in all this DKP, I am kinda stuck with it till the next tier of gear. I am alliance and have been frost spec (basically 28/0/23 with short experiments with arcane power and icebarrier etc) for over a year now and feel kind of bored with it. I was considering going back to 10/38/3 or 15/33/3 but the mana requirements of fire are keeping me away from it. If there is a mage out there with NW 8/8 who is fire specced please enlighten me =)

#7 arch

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 02:14 AM

Well I never had more than 3 nw but I can tell you that lots of our longtime frost specced mages never looked back after they tried fire now.
There's hardly any reasons at all to be frost as alliance if you ask me, and you get alot more options as fire. They all said that they had alot more fun with their mage overall after going fire.

Being frospecced while clearing Molten core and BWL is very common, though I´ve personally only been frostspecced for about 3 hours in 130 days played. BWL and MC alone doesn't motivate going frost, I never ever went frost during our progression in bwl, and I did just fine.
Once your guild starts spending more and more time in any instance that is not BWL and Molten core - go for it. I'm not saying that because frost is that much better in BWL and MC, but because those instances gives a terribly skewed picture of fire.

Mana efficiency for fire is not as big of a problem as most frosties would like to believe, I haven't checked the actual numbers but I believe scorch has close to, or better, dpm than frostbolts with frost channeling. 8 piece nw isn't very good for fire PvE-wise since it procs off fireball which is very mana inefficient in the long run, but that shouldn't stop you.
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#8 Mandilo

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 05:20 AM

When comparing 8/8 NW to other gear possibilities, do not use just plus damage, take into account also the %crit and %hit you would be capable of getting from other gear as well. 3 NW for threat reduction + generic plus damage gear or enigma is far better dps than 8/8 NW.

#9 Tempestra

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 07:20 AM

I was a frost mage for around my entire existence (minus levels 1-40, but that's way too long ago). When 1.11 came out and I crunched the numbers on combustion, I was intruiged with the damage output of fire.

Honestly, I don't plan on ever switching back... Sure I'm alliance (ezmode for casters), but scorch's DPM easily balances out with fireball's burst dps. If I want to do comparable damage to frost but cast forever, I'll use scorch. When it's time to lay out the dps, I'll roll with more fireballs. Pretty simple, and more fun to manage (as well as manage my ignites) than drinking-bird spamming frostbolt.

And yes, I *highly* regret having 7/8 netherwind, but I might as well finish off the set if the robe drops, and plan my next set around piecemail gear with frostfire.

edit: My spec is 17 arcane (2/2 subtlety, 3/5 focus, 5/5 absorb, 5/5 clearcast, 2/3 med), 31 fire (pure pve spec, except 1/3 imp scorch with pyro/blastwave), 3 frost.

#10 Maledict

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 09:45 AM

Sob. Every time an alliance mage posts about how much enjoy fire, somewhere god kills a kitten.

On a lighter note - Horde fire mages, are you able to sustain a higher level of damage than frost mages without resorting to demonic runes / major mana pots ever single boss fight?

And for those in AQ40 and beyond - how does the lack of Iceblock and Ice Barrier hurt? I've come to love Ice Barrier more and more since the patch, it's like having an extra 850 hitpoints almost...

#11 Shadout

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 11:04 AM

Fire mage and Horde :O

Anyway, ye, you lack mana quite often, but scorch isnt that bad anymore for decent dmg.
Ofc, its not that great only to do comparable dps to frost, as a fire mage, since you have lost a few good frost abilities by going fire.

I have 8 NW right now, which surely is a bit sad with fire, hopefully it will be changed to frostfire + randoms one day.


I have never had Iceblock. (Before fire i had 31/0/20), and I rarely miss it tbh. Sure, it can save your live against a few bosses, but you can survive anyway, by paying attention.

But sure, if you are only able to do comparable dmg to a frost mage, because mana is a problem, then frost is still better.
Fire is just more fun :P
Beside, some fights mana isnt so much of a problem, and there fire mages will win for sure.

Also remmeber that more fire mages in the raid boost their dmg from sharing ignites. Can really stack up a lot.
Just a shame one person gets all the aggro from the stacks :/

#12 Quixotic

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 11:05 AM

Sob. Every time an alliance mage posts about how much enjoy fire, somewhere god kills a kitten.

On a lighter note - Horde fire mages, are you able to sustain a higher level of damage than frost mages without resorting to demonic runes / major mana pots ever single boss fight?

And for those in AQ40 and beyond - how does the lack of Iceblock and Ice Barrier hurt? I've come to love Ice Barrier more and more since the patch, it's like having an extra 850 hitpoints almost...

Out of all the bosses in Naxx that I've killed (Anub/Faerlina/Maexxna/Noth/Raz/Patchwerk/Grobb/Gluth) the only fights where I'd say mana wasn't an issue was on Razuvious and Faerlina. You can easily sustain more damage, but even as a frost mage, I find myself running OOM with full consumables on some fights with a 28 arcane 23 frost pure pve build. Granted I use 8/8 NW, but when I broke it and went fire, I was having serious mana issues as a horde fire mage with a 31 fire 17 arcane 3 frost build.

I can honestly say that Ice Barrier in Naxx isnt that great... I'd must rather contribute to dps with a 28/23 build than go 18/33 and miss out on PoM (which is nice on fights in which you move) and arcane instability (one of the best raiding talents in the game). Iceblock however, isn't needed but it's saved my life more times than I can count ;p.

All in all, with my current gear, there is no way I could ever sustain as a fire mage, you'd need much more crit to make MoE more useful as a horde mage. If I was alliance, I'd be fire in an instant =/.

#13 Maledict

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 11:17 AM

Shadout, if you haven't ever had iceblock, then I'd advise you to give it a while. It's *much* more than "Sure, it can save your live against a few bosses, but you can survive anyway, by paying attention.".

I want some justification for dropping frosts innate defenses basically - scorch spamming is as mana efficient as frost, but deals roughly the same damage as frost. If mana is going to be a major issue, and I don't have time to farm enough major mana pots for *every* single fight, and demonic runes, then as a Horde mage it seems I'm better off as frost.... :(

#14 Shadout

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 01:52 PM

Ye I know iceblock got its uses. Still its not a skill i care much about, if I went frost I would take it now (since Arcane isnt worth it now), but its just a little bonus imo, not something big.

But no its not easy to find any justifications for being fire. Frost is still better because of the diversity it offers.

Fire got higher damage potential for a few fights. Though I havent been there yet, I guess Patchwerk is one of those. But as horde, ye, you need to eat lots of pots. I don really feel Major mana pots is required for everything though :) Just switch a bit between fireball and scorch (someone needs to refresh the Scorch debuff anyway).
However, im not really specced fire right now because I think its better (especially not with the NW proc), but with more +crit it will get better for sure.

Its a bit required that you got more fire mages in the raid to be useful though. I've both tried to be only fire mage in a raid, and be with 2 others, after 1.11. And the difference in dmg is quite huge.
Frost doesnt really have that advantage, you only need someone who can keep up Winters Chill.

#15 Zagzil

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 03:49 PM

Sob. Every time an alliance mage posts about how much enjoy fire, somewhere god kills a kitten.

On a lighter note - Horde fire mages, are you able to sustain a higher level of damage than frost mages without resorting to demonic runes / major mana pots ever single boss fight?

And for those in AQ40 and beyond - how does the lack of Iceblock and Ice Barrier hurt? I've come to love Ice Barrier more and more since the patch, it's like having an extra 850 hitpoints almost...

Out of all the bosses in Naxx that I've killed (Anub/Faerlina/Maexxna/Noth/Raz/Patchwerk/Grobb/Gluth) the only fights where I'd say mana wasn't an issue was on Razuvious and Faerlina. .

I'm surprised you say that - recently all of our mages respecced fire and haven't complained of mana issues much at all (Patchwerk being the exception). I think the major problem with Fire as Horde is that in nearly every fight, whoever gets lucky on ignites seriously might die. We had a mage pull aggro on Grobbulus about 30 seconds into the fight because of a huge ignite roll. The best part was - we knew he was about to die before Grobbulus even came to him. Pretty much every Gluth we do - whatever mage gets a big ignite roll, dies fast. Personally, that's major danger of being fire as Horde, otherwise just be prepared to use consumables a little more often than as Frost, and die a bit more.

#16 Kypreos

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 04:02 PM

I just respecced fire after being arc/frost since release.

I am easily doing more damage than ever before, and I'm not really noticing the mana problems. Patchwerk obviously stretches it, but its still manageable, and i dont think "hey its more mana efficient" is a good enough reason to bring a frost mage to that fight.

one thing that IS hard to adjust to is ignite damage. I have died a couple times due to not managing aggro properly with the added damage. When you see that 3k ignite ticking away its easy for my eyes to light up as i go nuts trying to maximize damage, rather than just laying back and praying to not get aggro. but on non aggro fights we've been playing with ignite rotations, and its pretty fun to see those big numbers.

#17 Darkchani

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 05:02 PM

being fire on horde is definitly more of a "challenge", and alot more interesting

with consumables and adapting the number of fireballs between scorches tho, you can keep dpsing on any fight, its just harder than just frostbolt spamming until oom or well, being alliance

#18 Quixotic

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 01:01 AM

I'm surprised you say that - recently all of our mages respecced fire and haven't complained of mana issues much at all (Patchwerk being the exception). I think the major problem with Fire as Horde is that in nearly every fight, whoever gets lucky on ignites seriously might die. We had a mage pull aggro on Grobbulus about 30 seconds into the fight because of a huge ignite roll. The best part was - we knew he was about to die before Grobbulus even came to him. Pretty much every Gluth we do - whatever mage gets a big ignite roll, dies fast. Personally, that's major danger of being fire as Horde, otherwise just be prepared to use consumables a little more often than as Frost, and die a bit more.

Unless your whole raid is fire, and had the gear to support it (hint the entire NW set sucks for fire), then it's not worth it as horde. When I was fire, we had 2 fire mages, and 4 frost mages on raids. The mana efficency of scorch doesn't outdamage just pure frostbolt spamming until you have around 4-5 fire mages in your raid.

#19 Hamoshin

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 01:12 AM

If multiple fire mages land crits, does anyone know how to determine which mage will get credit for the Ignites as they stack?
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#20 Thrillho

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 01:15 AM

If multiple fire mages land crits, does anyone know how to determine which mage will get credit for the Ignites as they stack?

The first one to land the ignite that's getting stacked.

Example:

Fire Mage 1: Crit
- Ignite Ticks for 200 for Fire Mage 1
Fire Mage 2: Crit (less than 4 seconds later)
- Ignite Ticks for 400 for Fire Mage 1




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