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Raiding with ferals, moonkin, shadowpriests, etc


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#21 RK

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 12:33 AM

Just curious as to what peoples opinions were on using moonkin druids for ignite rolling.

An extra fire mage in that spot would do it better (and do more dps).

Answering the OP's questions-

1. Occasionally, but they heal like everyone else when it's needed and they DPS at other times to speed up the run. There hasn't really been any loot problems, the priests are pretty smart about what they take, when they take it, and who they take it ahead of.

2,3. Ferals seem to come and go, while restos stay forever. We have a spot designated for a feral druid (0/30/21 flavour generally), especially since they got innervate, but it's not always used. They heal when necessary, kittyDPS when helpful, and tank in emergencies (shortage of warriors for Vael, multiple green wyrmguards, that kind of thing). Versatility is good in limited amounts.

We don't have a regular feral tank for raid bosses though. Besides Jin'do, but that can and has been a resto druid in bear gear.

4. Moonkin are a novelty spec. We do have a guild moonkin. He does occasionally come on raids. He would go moonkin pretty much only if there happens to be a nature or arcane vulnerable wyrmguard to blast.

5. Horde, can't comment.

6. We have a DPS spot for our resident enhancement shaman-with-sulfuras, but he still has a good set of healing gear in his bag for when it's needed (and he would be the first to say- has been the first to say, actually- that enhancement shaman trying to DPS with anything less than that can't do enough damage to really justify a spot. He was full resto until he got his Eye. Our ex-High Warlord shaman can probably do enough damage to justify it too, but just takes a normal healer shaman spot and does DPS on trash). DPS on trash where less healing is needed is, as with priests and druids, fine to speed up the run as long as you know when to switch jobs if something goes wrong.

Shaman who NEVER heal (PvE or PvP) are worthless, it's just ignoring a powerful aspect of the class.

#22 Pandul

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 01:23 AM

1. Do you have any Shadow Priests in your raid? Does it help to have one, for added Warlock DPS?

We currently have one. A Shadow Priest who is willing to be flexible and play in a hybrid fashion is of great use IMO. Apart from contributing decent DPS, Shadow Weaving is great for the warlocks, and VE saves a lot of spot healing.

Having said that, I would consider it highly unwise to ever take more than 1 on a raid.

2. Do you have any Bear Tanks? Do they tank raid bosses?

No, and no.

3. Do you have any Cats? Would you take a Cat over a Rogue? Why (not)?

No. No, I wouldn't. They have neither the DPS nor the threat control to justify taking a rogue spot.

4. Do you have any Moonkin? Does the +3% spellcrit aura compensate for the lower DPS?

We do sometimes. A well played moonkin in a group with 4 mages is a decent investment. You may not get as much DPS total, but you get 4 happy mages :-)

5. Do you have any Protection Paladins? Do they actually tank Big Stuff?

Horde.

6. Do you have any non-healing Shamans? What do they do? (I'm alliance, no experience with Shamans, but felt I had to include them here)

Yeah, we have a number of non-resto shammies. One enhancement and a couple elemental I think. Again, it comes back to playstyle. If they're willing to heal where necessary, they're good to have on board.

7. Or do you think any or even all of the above are ridiculous, and you should never have one of these in your raid?

The only non-standard build I really despise are feral druids. As far as I'm concerned they just don't offer anything that other classes can't do much better. I'm not hugely keen on Moonkin either, but they get points for being hilarious and making funny sounds.

#23 CrazyCarl

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 01:36 AM

And you have no problem with Elemental Shamans? I also don't buy the Shadow Weaving argument anymore. I hardly (If ever) see it on a boss. I'm assuming they're too busy trying to heal. Trying to max out Weaving is 5 seconds where you can't do anything else (Global cooldown FTL)

#24 Pandul

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 01:47 AM

And you have no problem with Elemental Shamans?

Admittedly, I'd rather they were resto. But it's far from a guild-breaking issue as long as they know when to heal.

I also don't buy the Shadow Weaving argument anymore. I hardly (If ever) see it on a boss. I'm assuming they're too busy trying to heal. Trying to max out Weaving is 5 seconds where you can't do anything else (Global cooldown FTL)

5 seconds is not a long time in the context of most boss fights. Surely your 'pure' healers can cover the requisite healing for the duration. If you don't see SW up at all times your Shadow Priest needs to be asked some pointed questions about justifying his raid spot.

#25 Liandra

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 09:31 AM

A BWL geared tank is allready vastly superior to any bear, due to to superior avoidance, defense and shield block. A tank in everything bwl has to offer will partically never be crit, and if he knows what he's doing - almost never be crushed. That alone brings him above a bear tanks mitigation. Now add in parry and the warrior is so far above the bear its not even worth comparing anymore.

Can you quantify this in numbers?
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#26 Farstrider

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 10:32 AM

A BWL geared tank is allready vastly superior to any bear

Given the number of posts that give good evidence to the contrary, it would be nice if you could post some sort of evidence for your view on this.
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#27 Shik

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 11:56 AM

Competent warriors are using imp shield block to block 60-80% of incoming strikes, which translates directly into a 60-80% reduction in crushing blows. That alone I'd expect to catch up with bear forms extra mitigation in any 10-second period.

A tier 2 warrior will have what... 15% parry?

We have a great feral druid in the guild, epicly geared and he is basically the 7th tank who can also heal. Druids do have a role, good ones offer the flexibility to effectly sub out a healer for a tank, or sub a healer for DPS (not by kitty form, but by filling in the tanking role so a DPS warrior can kill stuff)

That said, armor is only one part of avoidance, and its the only part druids have an advantage on. AQ level tanks can be running over 45% combined parry and dodge, lots of blocking and other tools.


On another note, Paladins either side will remove the inequality between shadow priests on different factions, it'll be interesting to see the consequence of that. On horde-side they just can't sustain the damage long enough to be competitive.

#28 Guest_Adalys_*

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 11:56 AM

A BWL geared tank is allready vastly superior to any bear, due to to superior avoidance, defense and shield block. A tank in everything bwl has to offer will partically never be crit, and if he knows what he's doing - almost never be crushed. That alone brings him above a bear tanks mitigation. Now add in parry and the warrior is so far above the bear its not even worth comparing anymore.

Can you quantify this in numbers?

http://forums.worldo...mp=1#post781672

What's a Bear druid's strengths?
High AC?
AC reduction is hard capped at 75%, 16,500 for even level mobs, 17265 for level 63 mobs.
( Here's a warrior with 15.5K AC, no Naxxramas gear - http://www.chevhell....wow/acwhat2.jpg ) Only 2k away from max AC. Doesn't seem like a huge selling point anymore.

High Stam?
Heart of the Wild: adds 20% stam for 5 talent points deep in the feral tree.
Shield Slam - Soon to be revised to add 10% HP (still a 10 point prot talent?)

Can't be polymorphed?
- Stack warriors? Problem solved.

Check this out: http://wow.allakhaza...l?entryid=66903 (the original Cenarion Belt):
113 Armor
+20 Intellect
+7 Spirit
+8 Stamina
+10 Strength
+6 Nature Resistance
Classes: Druid
Requires Level 60
Equip: Increases damage done by Arcane spells and effects by up to 21.

I don't know what kinda point I'm trying to make. It's a terrible belt for preist in leather. It's disgusting. Nasty piece of hybrid garbage. The rest of the set was just as bad; int, stam, str, agi +spell damage +healing. /sarcasm off.

The original intent of the druid class has changed. I don't know if it's because they fired the original devs or what. Probably. Port to moonglade. Go to the south east corner. Find the Great Cat Spirit. Say "Why the hell is there a Great Cat Spirit, but no level 20 quest for Cat form?" The NPC is already there, it's been there since Beta. The least they could do is make a 'go talk to the cat and learn cat form' quest. It would take 3 minutes to code and it wouldn't make the class so glaringly incomplete. I've waited for that quest since Beta. I've waited for the "place holder" travel form cheetah to be upgraded like they promissed, also in Beta. I just did the level 20 poison quest on my rogue. So I'm kinda sore about that. I appologize.

Blizzard in thier infinate wisdom decided that they should restrain druids through itemization. You've seen it on the forums, a druid can dps, heal, or tank, but not at the same time. About needing different sets of gear for different roles.

But despite the complaints about all the druid crap in the game... by thier own logic it's not enough. You need one set for cat, one for healing, one for nuking, one for bear. That's 4 druid drops for every other classes 1 drop. Hugehoss said something to the extent that with a full set of Hive Tunneler gear a bear tank could be viable in Naxx. But it's all theory craft. The gear's just not in the game.

But really, the dream is dead. It was a bait and switch to trick people into playing healers.
- Mootan quit.
- Hugehoss would have stepped down from MT as <Peekay> got further into Naxx, but the guild fell apart and they're back to Nefarian status instead of pushing into new content. So he lucked out and didn't respec resto.

For those not trolling the druid forums, imagine what the rogue forums would be like if Wodin (aka "The Rogue") posted that Rogue wasn't a viable dps class after all. Mootan and Hugehoss are "the ferals".

http://forums.worldo...mp=1#post979205
Mootan's "I quit" post. It's depressing as all hell. "They sold me a whole area of a class that has no place anywhere." Since shapeshifting is an offspec and all. Hell, atleast I can amuse people with cool and interesting forms. Go me.

That being said, I love my druid. I'm 14 / 31 / 5. Even though Furor is broken. Again. That's fine. They'll fix it again. The blue's posted that they'll get around to it eventually. I heal when needed (which is alot), tank / off-tank when needed (which isn't as much as I'd like), dps when needed (Nobody. Is. Short. On. Rogues. Ever.) I'll probably respec to help my guild through Naxx, but we haven't hit the point where lack of healing is the issue yet.

Wait for the expansion. Hopefully with harder 5 mans people won't want a druid as a healer. GG 30 minute rez.

...


God, this post sounds depressing as all hell.

#29 Judia

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 12:21 PM

To the above poster:
Sorry that is the same "Grass is greener" tripe trotted out by "lolferal" druids all the time and it doesnt even hold water.

Look me in the eye and tell me on day 1 of release your rolled a druid to tank. Noone Ive met can do that, maybe later in the game they realized bearform was fun and viable and they could tank but look me in the eye and tell me you rolled your toon solely to tank. I dare any druid to do that if they rolled they char within a week of release. I rolled my paladin purely to tank and I did purely tank, all the way through 1-60 and all the way through MC and Onyxia, right until the paladin review destroyed that are of the game for me personally. Are you telling me I wasnt hit by a "Bait and switch" ? What about shadow priests, were they "a whole area of a class that has no place anywhere" ?

As for the AC .jpg, He has both inspiration (+25% armor) and Improved LoH (+20% armor) on him and they stack multiplicatively so thats 50% more armor. Its a freak number not one that you would ever try and balance the game about o even use to make a point in an argument if you are at all reasonable.

Yes I read Mootans "I quit post" and its more of the same. Druids are not the only class to need more than one gear set, they do not need "4 druid drops for every other classes 1 drop":
Warriors: Tanking, Dps, FR, NR
Priests: Healing, DPS
Warlocks: DPS, (SR)
Paladins: Healing, Melee DPS, Spellpower DPS, Tanking
And soon everyone will need a FrR set.

All the hybrid classess need multiple sets.

You are not the only class with unfinished quests, paladins still dont have a level 40 mount quest. Infact some classess like priests just have a negligable number of class quests at all. Yours was not the only crappy tier 2, mage and warlock sets wre equally pointless at first, hence all the sets got a review and not just the druid set.
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#30 Judia

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 12:32 PM

To the OP:

1. Do you have any Shadow Priests in your raid? Does it help to have one, for added Warlock DPS?
No, none of our priests will spec shadow for more than a week or two, they feel week and gimped at healing. Ive asked several times so I could see the effect on shadowweaving but none of them are willing to stay shadow.

2. Do you have any Bear Tanks? Do they tank raid bosses?
Yes, and Yes. We always aim for a 8x5 raid balance which necessitates the odd bear tank.

3. Do you have any Cats? Would you take a Cat over a Rogue? Why (not)?
No, and No. If you need more dps use a bear tank and have a warrior DPS. If you dont need any tanks and you dont need healers then cat dps is fine.

4. Do you have any Moonkin? Does the +3% spellcrit aura compensate for the lower DPS?
No its rubbish, we have one balance druid and we mock him mercilessly

5. Do you have any Protection Paladins? Do they actually tank Big Stuff?
Yes and not since the Paladin review. Prior to that I tanked most of MC and Onyxia.

6. Do you have any non-healing Shamans? What do they do? (I'm alliance, no experience with Shamans, but felt I had to include them here)
Allaince.

7. Or do you think any or even all of the above are ridiculous, and you should never have one of these in your raid?
We only have 1 hard rule. Whent he raid leaer tells you to do a job you do it, if you cant do it because of your talents/gear then your place in the raid comes under question. If you a dps warrior is told to tank an add they sure as hell better strap on a shield and do it, same for paladins/priests/druids told to heal and so on.
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#31 Grimmlokk

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 12:47 PM

We've always had 2 druids tank Fankriss. We don't run with a lot of warriors and they handle the buggies a lot better. It's worked like a charm since the 1st kill. Don't think we've wiped once.

As for cat: We have 1 full Feral druid who gets to DPS semi-often. They just can't hang though. He's useful as a fill in tank(tanks surprisingly often), but for DPS they just can't compare. Still, as long as it's not holding the raid back somehow, having 1-2 around can't hurt as long as they're not shitheads about healing.

We have a few non-mana tide shaman, but they have healing gear and 99% of the time that's their job on raids.

While I wouldn't mind stacking warriors up to 8 per raid like most seem to do, I'm just not sure there's 8 warriors on Kilrogg I'm confident enough in to make someone in the guild lose a spot. Maybe raiding with 3-5 will stop us from progressing some day, but until then we're not going to be lowering our standards just to get another warrior.

#32 Rodent

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 12:58 PM

A BWL geared tank is allready vastly superior to any bear

Given the number of posts that give good evidence to the contrary, it would be nice if you could post some sort of evidence for your view on this.

As I have posted before, this is my profile: http://ctprofiles.net/1604. I realise this is quite a lot more than what BWL offers, but raidbuffed without pots Im sitting on around 20% dodge and 20% parry. that there is 20% more avoidance than a bear can ever hope to achive. A BWL tank would be able to achive something around 20%/15% or so. As someone has mentioned earlier, keeping shield block up (asuming you have specced 1 imp), you will block 60-80% of all incomming attacks, which removes almost all crushing blows. I'm sitting on 450+ defense in my normal raid gear, making me immune to crit. This all means that a warrior will over time take less damage than a bear, even if the bear's AC is vastly superior.

We've always had 2 druids tank Fankriss. We don't run with a lot of warriors and they handle the buggies a lot better. It's worked like a charm since the 1st kill. Don't think we've wiped once.

Fankriss hits like a girl, so he isnt at all a viable test for bear vs warrior. We use our dps warriors.

#33 Rodent

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 01:08 PM

http://ctprofiles.net/2715132 <- Tank in BWL gear. 17.7% dodge, 17.2% parry, 25.2% block and 430 defense.

#34 berg

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 01:21 PM

1. Do you have any Shadow Priests in your raid? Does it help to have one, for added Warlock DPS?

We do have shadow priests though not in shadowform. Shadow priests can still heal adequately and keep shadow weaving up between heals.

2. Do you have any Bear Tanks? Do they tank raid bosses?

We have well geared bear druids. Tanking bosses? only in MC and we have not been there in a few months. In Nax we have a bear tank help play 'goalie' on noth and they are often used on large trash pulls.

3. Do you have any Cats? Would you take a Cat over a Rogue? Why (not)?

Not really. Would we take one over a rogue? Ofcourse not. Worse damage worse aggro etc.

4. Do you have any Moonkin? Does the +3% spellcrit aura compensate for the lower DPS?

No moonkin. That tree is a trainwreck. I do not think our druids would spec moonkin even if we wanted them to.

6. Do you have any non-healing Shamans? What do they do? (I'm alliance, no experience with Shamans, but felt I had to include them here)

Out of 8 or so shaman I believe that we have 1 with mana tide but I believe all 8 have natures swiftness. I do not care what spec my guys bring to raids but I would not actively select a shaman with a stormstrike build as a full enhancement shaman brings much less to the raid then hybrid shaman do.

7. Or do you think any or even all of the above are ridiculous, and you should never have one of these in your raid?

We are pretty open with talent builds. That said we use a 'sane' loot council so nonsense like cats getting belt of agony from C'thun is not going to happen.

#35 Creediki

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 02:21 PM

Ever since we started Naxx we've had one of our druid spec feral.
For some fights we have found ourselves with some slack in healing, and he has helped out on dps.
Just depends on the fight. The only one, really, so far where having one person as feral has hurt has been patchwerk.

It depends though, if you have a line of warriors and rogues waiting outside your instance to get in.. perhaps you can completly specialize.
As a guild that runs a bit tighter, being able to have a bit of flexibility has really helped at times.
Short warriors for Faerlina one day, the druid tanked.

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#36 Sherm

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 02:58 PM

just on the issue of protection paladin.

I haven't heard of any tanking post patch. It wasn't that blizzard completely destroyed our viability in the protection tree, though they did hurt it a fair amount. Moreso, the thing that killed the protection paladin was how viable they made the holy tree in raiding. It is just too much to give up, both gear and spec, to become a nearly viable paladin tank. And I don't think you would have any chance tanking past MC/Ony and maybe early bwl. There are too many factors that work against paladin tanks (limited mana pools, limited tank gear that you're taking from warriors sometimes, limited holy dmg and threat generation) that hurt their viability. The tree is only there for kings and sanctuary and about 40 points of fluff as far as raiding is concerned.

#37 Zagzil

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 03:04 PM

The problem with including a bunch of feral loot in an instance is that it pisses every non-druid off (see: AQ).

On a side note we're considering letting an Enhancement Shaman DPS with Nightfall if we can get one made, just for fun.

As for druids v. warriors, warriors can get a ridiculous amount more avoidance - one of our tanks has something like 25% Block, 24% dodge, and 20% Parry.

#38 subscience

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 03:17 PM

1. Do you have any Shadow Priests in your raid? Does it help to have one, for added Warlock DPS?

We have 2 and at least 1 is present each raid. On average, we have 4-6 Warlocks so the added DPS increase is always welcome.

2. Do you have any Bear Tanks? Do they tank raid bosses?

We have a few Feral Druids but they haven't tanked much outside of Firesworns and Flamewakers and such.

3. Do you have any Cats? Would you take a Cat over a Rogue? Why (not)?

No Cat DPS Druids.

4. Do you have any Moonkin? Does the +3% spellcrit aura compensate for the lower DPS?

We have one Moonkin Druid. In theory, they work well in tandem with Holy Paladins, but since you need to spread Paladins out for Auras, I tend to stick Mages in the Moonkin's group. But then the Mages complain that they never get heals. :laugh: We don't force specs, but Moonkin really do suck.

5. Do you have any Protection Paladins? Do they actually tank Big Stuff?

We had one and, surprisingly, he tanked his fair share of stuff including Rajaxx adds, those stinger packs in AQ20 and even Onyxia once when both MTs died (the last 8ish percent).

6. Do you have any non-healing Shamans? What do they do? (I'm alliance, no experience with Shamans, but felt I had to include them here)

My guild is Alliance.

7. Or do you think any or even all of the above are ridiculous, and you should never have one of these in your raid?

Not at all except maybe a Moonkin Druid. :laugh:

#39 Decker

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 03:20 PM

I don't understand why people don't want to play their class the way it should be played. Melee hunters? Sure..that'll fly.

I started tanking as a joke of sorts, but then found some utility to it, but it's never something I look to do often. I've been selling the idea of dodge tanking for a while. Survival hunters are good for something! :P

#40 fivehundred

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 03:24 PM

1. No. We only field 2 maybe 3 Warlocks, no point to have a Shadow Priest. I'd rather bring another Mage, Hunter, or Rogue if I want DPS. And without a doubt, a Holy/Disc or Disc/Holy priest is a far better healer than a Shadow one.

Sorry for the late reply on this, I somehow missed this thread yesterday.

I think this quote totally misses the point of bringing a shadow priest. The point is not to simply add dps. If it was, of course a mage / hunter / rogue / dps warrior would be a more appropriate choice. The point is a shadow priest can augment your raid in different ways. Unless you need every priest maxed out on healing (Patchwerk comes to mind) a shadow priest can offer a number of attractive things to a raid.

Unlimited warlock life tap
Shadow weaving
Increased dps (comes in handy for race fights like Maexxna, Faerlina and general trash clearing)
A shadow priest can very easily sustain a group taking incidental damage through VE.
Viable healer if the situation calls for it
Silence can be handy from time to time (C'Thun)
Spell resist reduction talent (comes in handy for MC in Naxx -- at least I think it would, have not actually tested)

Obviously the classes you mentioned are more attractive than a shadow priest if you are only concerned about dps.
Obviously a disc holy priest plays the pure healing role better.

I think a well played shadow priest can be very versatile and offers skills to a raid that are very attractive. Unfortunately, while learning instances people generally seem more comfortable with everyone playing "normal" roles. Patchwerk is the only fight thus far in Naxx where I think all the healers actually need to be specced for max healing. (I've only had experience with 6 fights, so future bosses may prefer the holy disc spec from priests.




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