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Raiding with ferals, moonkin, shadowpriests, etc


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#41 Sapphrina

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 03:52 PM

We had a shadow priest, he was doing oke, but he started "not noticing" when we asked him to stay out of shadowform and heal, and stopped bidding on healing gear, so we kicked him. He was tolerated until then though, mainly because we usually have more than average number of warlocks in our raids.

We have a pure beartank specced druid and an omen/lotp one. They're happy to sit in heal gear and do what the other druids do, and happy to tank when asked to. We use them to tank on several fights, among others the bwl drakes (including vael), broodlord, sartura and fankriss. Funny thing though, on emps the ferals are healing, and seem to be a lot better at dodging blizzard and so on.. It's a general tendancy for these people to be better at adapting, especially in mobile fights. And anyways, it makes feral loot like malfurion/ghoul skin less wasted to have them along.

Our omen/lotp druid does dps on trash and easy bosses. Usually put in group with our 2 sealfate rogues.

We have no shamans, period, for obvious reasons (until BC at least).

Optimal builds for specific raid roles is nice, but it's the person behind the keyboard that counts really. We're a couple bosses into naxx, and still haven't reached a point where slightly less healing/mana from 1-2 druids has made us unable to complete an encounter.

On a side note, we've had a pala tank all of zg. Had no ferals and only one warrior in the raid, and he just completed his sulfaras 15mins before joining the raid, so he wanted to test it. Obviously that was rather interesting. Would never use pala tank on higher level stuff though.
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#42 Rane

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 03:55 PM

1. Do you have any Shadow Priests in your raid? Does it help to have one, for added Warlock DPS?

No. We only bring two locks to instances nowadays and their DPS doesn't exactly validify losing another healer. Not to mention I'm extremely opposed to letting 1 person get the "fun" spec when the others have to bring the raidspec. It's not like we force specs and our healers love their jobs I'm sure, it's just that it only takes a little flame :)

2. Do you have any Bear Tanks? Do they tank raid bosses?

Not in spec or much in gear preferance, but we do employ Bears when we need them to fill temporary tank roles. We had a few good tanks leave and had to recruit some that weren't exactly up to par yet for tanking e.g one of Faerlina's followers. Rather have a Bear do it temporarily than potentially lose a good source of DPS. I think the best they've tanked is Garr, tho ;p. Horde doesn't get many variables for endgame raiding, BoS and Fear Ward do quite a bit in favor of Bears.

3. Do you have any Cats? Would you take a Cat over a Rogue? Why (not)?

Nope. Nope. It'll always be better to bring another rogue or another healer.

4. Do you have any Moonkin? Does the +3% spellcrit aura compensate for the lower DPS?

Nope. Nope. Our Druids all have warrior, mage, rogue or hunter alts already anyway :)

5. Do you have any Protection Paladins? Do they actually tank Big Stuff?

Not until the expansion. I doubt they'd get preference over Bears, either. Bears have loads better aggro generation and it doesn't take them their whole mana bar to do it either.

6. Do you have any non-healing Shamans? What do they do? (I'm alliance, no experience with Shamans, but felt I had to include them here)

We have a few Enhancement specced, but only for the better Windfury totems. They get put with the rogs and fury warriors. They heal like every other Shaman, tho :)

7. Or do you think any or even all of the above are ridiculous, and you should never have one of these in your raid?

I'm under the impression that there are no hybrids in this game. Going feral spec or elemental spec isn't exactly promoting your "hybrid-ness" either. However, with an extra healer on each side in the expansion, things may look up for Druids, Shamans and Paladins. I still don't think true endgame guilds will make space for "alternate" specs though.

#43 Andon

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 03:56 PM

We have one Moonkin Druid. In theory, they work well in tandem with Holy Paladins, but since you need to spread Paladins out for Auras, I tend to stick Mages in the Moonkin's group. But then the Mages complain that they never get heals. :laugh:

Erh...your healers must really suck if they only heal their own group. For me personally as druid the group of someone is totally irrelevant, I heal whole raid, tanks or whatever my job is regardless of group.

***
My raid group has a fairly "casual" attitude towards specs, but people generally have raid-friendly specs for most part. It's also a bit class-dependant, for example the priests have taken a policy where they enforce certain talents, i.e. full shadow priests are not welcome.

We don't have full feral druids at the moment, but some of us like me have good feral gear, so I can switch to tanking when it's needed. Which is quite often actually since 6th tank is needed particularly in AQ, and sometimes we even fail to fill 5 warrior slots. I have more than 12k armor and 7200 hp with buffs when tanking despite having 31 points in resto. I'd say being a fully capable resto druid which can change to a decent tank in one click (itemrack ftw :D) is much more useful than some full feral druid which would end up healing most of the time anyway. We've had druids with feral spec in the past, and it's been rather silly with me as resto druid tanking and them as feral druids healing (since my tanking stats have been better). We have one oomkin druid, who is nice and all, but more of a mascot than a really useful raider. We don't even take advantage of the aura, he's healing in boss fights. Our druids rarely go cat, I do it for MC trash or something when I feel like it but it has no real use for progression. I don't know much about our paladin specs, but none of them has any real tanking ambitions. Some of them tank in phase 1 Nefarian though, and it's proven to be very useful in our strategy.

#44 castille

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 04:00 PM

1. I was our alliance's raiding shadow priest for awhile. This is/was my setup: http://ctprofiles.net/59986. I've since moved to playing my rogue more, mostly because it's needed, and because another shadow priest has shown he wants to take my place. Basically, we have the one shadow priest as a DPSer and VE'er. This works remarkably well in places that require a consistent pulse of healing on a low-damage-incoming group. Ragnaros, for example, or firemaw/flamegor. In AQ40, Sartura was one of my favorite fights. I took less damage than most of our rogues on whirlwind because of shadowform and inner fire.

I'd say having -one- shadow priest well geared is a boon to the raid. The importance of this priest is not damage, but rather a steady, consistent amount of healing and upping shadow DPS overall. The priest should still be concerned with his endgame goal: providing healing, but this way through a cheap spell combo: mind flay and vampiric embrace. Often, you can get SWP to stick long enough to make it worth it, too.
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#45 Icantregister

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 04:39 PM

Horde doesn't get many variables for endgame raiding, BoS and Fear Ward do quite a bit in favor of Bears.

Fearward: Yes. BoS: No.

Bear specced Druids cause more threat than Warriors :)

#46 Guest_Adalys_*

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 04:51 PM

To the above poster:
Sorry that is the same "Grass is greener" tripe trotted out by "lolferal" druids all the time and it doesnt even hold water.

Look me in the eye and tell me on day 1 of release your rolled a druid to tank. Noone Ive met can do that, maybe later in the game they realized bearform was fun and viable and they could tank but look me in the eye and tell me you rolled your toon solely to tank. I dare any druid to do that if they rolled they char within a week of release.

PvP server! Tank = PvE. I honestly rolled my druid to PvP. I think I started my account on day 8 or 9, Comp USA screwed up the pre-orders. I will admit that my perceptions of this game were tainted by playing Warcraft II & Warcraft III, Druids of the Talon and Druids of the Claw. ( And Malfurian Stormrage. I don't remember him being a healer at all). I was expecting the end game to be alot more Warcraft, and alot LESS Everquest.

I rolled my paladin purely to tank and I did purely tank, all the way through 1-60 and all the way through MC and Onyxia, right until the paladin review destroyed that are of the game for me personally. Are you telling me I wasnt hit by a "Bait and switch" ? What about shadow priests, were they "a whole area of a class that has no place anywhere" ?

1) And I don't think I claimed I wanted to tank. However, now, tanking is the only area where a druid's hybritity comes into play.

I actually leveled mostly balance spec. Pre-Nerfs. You could kill people with JUST roots (and a stack of mana potions). Hurricane used to be an instant cast 10 second AOE. Fire and Forget. You could root people in it. >:)
I switched to feral, once balance was nerfed, to get to 60 as fast as possible. Gotta get to 60 before the hero classes come out! It's gonna be awesome! Started doing PvE outa boredom. There's a whole lot of PvE happenin on my PvP server!

Here's the main issue behind lolferal bitching:
Blizz ninja changed the druid class description.
It USED to say "Forms may be considered as powerful as thier parent classes but not as versatile". NOW it says "Animal forms are not as powerful as their counterpart classes". They also added "primary healer". I don't know when this was changed. But if I wanted to be a primary healer, I would have picked preist.

You see, there was hope. Blizcon: "Druids are the one true Hybrid". The constant "cat form base dps increased" ect, the +ap weapons meant to close the gap...

Shadow Priests? Iono. Did Bliz ninja change thier class description too?


As for the AC .jpg, He has both inspiration (+25% armor) and Improved LoH (+20% armor) on him and they stack multiplicatively so thats 50% more armor. Its a freak number not one that you would ever try and balance the game about o even use to make a point in an argument if you are at all reasonable.

Have you seen Dreadnaught? 15.5k AC is a rare occurance now... Let's wait a month and see if that's still true.

Yes I read Mootans "I quit post" and its more of the same. Druids are not the only class to need more than one gear set, they do not need "4 druid drops for every other classes 1 drop":
Warriors: Tanking, Dps, FR, NR
Priests: Healing, DPS
Warlocks: DPS, (SR)
Paladins: Healing, Melee DPS, Spellpower DPS, Tanking
And soon everyone will need a FrR set.

I meant it as an illustration on how unrealistic the common "in equal gear a druid can be just as good". We have Caydem to thank for this by the way. The gear simply doesn't exist. I'm too tired to explain this correctly, Hugehoss said something like, a bear tank could keep up if only they had added a hive tunneler set instead of just a few pieces. That's fine for Bear druids. But could you imagine your guild's reaction to having to deal with a moonkin set, a kitty set, a bear set, and healer set dropping in each instance (so that druids could keep equal footing with thier mage/rogue/warrior/preist counterparts)?

All the hybrid classess need multiple sets.

That wasn't what I was going for really.

You are not the only class with unfinished quests, paladins still dont have a level 40 mount quest. Infact some classess like priests just have a negligable number of class quests at all.

Our level 20 quest giver is in the game, with nice little animation prowling around. The quest is ALMOST done. It's part and parcel of feeling like an incomplete class. Ie: Cheetah being a placeholder for two years until it was finally anounced that it wasn't important enough an issue to change any time soon.

Yours was not the only crappy tier 2, mage and warlock sets wre equally pointless at first, hence all the sets got a review and not just the druid set.

Actually, at level 25 the set looked amazing. +str, +agi, +damage. Far from useless. Definately NOT a healbot set.

I beleive the pally tier 2 actually had +STR and +spell damage added to it. The druid set had it stripped away.

#47 Nite_Moogle

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 04:51 PM

7. Or do you think any or even all of the above are ridiculous, and you should never have one of these in your raid?

Every other question can be answered through this one. There are certain specs and ways to play your character that are "best-fit" in the grand scheme of raiding most content. If your raid team embraces this attitude, you have an edge over the people that use pvp or fun specs, and you progress further, faster. People that say you can "make up for it" with consumables are deluding themselves, all those same consumables are available to the people that want to be the best raiders, and there's no way to bridge the gap between two players of equal skill and gear when one has a good raiding spec and one has a shitty raiding spec. There are just some mathematical things that cannot be overcome. Whether or not you care about fast and efficient progression as a guild should nudge people in certain directions for raiding gear and specs.

That said, the raid efficiency of your talent and gear builds simply dictates your rate of progress, it's not the limiting factor of how far you can get (though some would argue the Emps are the break point on this).

Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.


#48 Judia

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 05:20 PM

Here's the main issue behind lolferal bitching:
Blizz ninja changed the druid class description.
It USED to say "Forms may be considered as powerful as thier parent classes but not as versatile". NOW it says "Animal forms are not as powerful as their counterpart classes". They also added "primary healer". I don't know when this was changed. But if I wanted to be a primary healer, I would have picked preist.

The same description said:
"Primary Healers"

While the paladin description used to include the phrases:
"They are tanks overall"
"Powerful melee class"
"Some healing and buffs"

We were also told:
"There will be no support classess in World of warcraft"

Which was then followed up in blue at the time of the Paladin review by:
"Paladins were intended to be a strong support class"

Paladins got it just as bad as druids, arguably worse, and the class description was a MAJOR bitching point.

As I said its a whole bunch of "Grass is greener" rubbish, and the two druids you cite as "The ferals" should have rolled warriors. They were not "Embracing their hybridity" they want to tank, they wanted to tank every fight all the time 100% of encounters except where blizzard made it excessivley difficult (Nefarian). When they could no longer tank, did they "embrace their hybridity"? No, instead one quit WoW. Yes they are very good players, but in the end Mootan was just another LoLferal who quit when he was told to heal. Hugehoss talks alot more sense and I take his opinions more seriously.
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#49 chalon

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 05:48 PM

Unlimited warlock life tap
Shadow weaving
Increased dps (comes in handy for race fights like Maexxna, Faerlina and general trash clearing)
A shadow priest can very easily sustain a group taking incidental damage through VE.
Viable healer if the situation calls for it
Silence can be handy from time to time (C'Thun)
Spell resist reduction talent (comes in handy for MC in Naxx -- at least I think it would, have not actually tested)

A Shadow Priest does give you flexibility, I'll give you that. But again, if you're only fielding 2-3 Warlocks, the benefit of Shadow Weaving and VE is marginal. Again as I said in my original post, if I want more healing I'll bring a healing-specced healer, and if I want more DPS I'll bring a DPS class. A Shadow Priest can do both, but in a more limited capacity.

#50 Shalas

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 07:12 PM

Look me in the eye and tell me on day 1 of release your rolled a druid to tank. Noone Ive met can do that, maybe later in the game they realized bearform was fun and viable and they could tank but look me in the eye and tell me you rolled your toon solely to tank. I dare any druid to do that if they rolled they char within a week of release.

We had two druids who started playing the day WoW came out who rolled thier druids to be tanks. One of them didn't even train cat form until a few months after hitting 60 because he wanted to be a bear, not a cat.

#51 Judia

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 07:55 PM

Look me in the eye and tell me on day 1 of release your rolled a druid to tank. Noone Ive met can do that, maybe later in the game they realized bearform was fun and viable and they could tank but look me in the eye and tell me you rolled your toon solely to tank. I dare any druid to do that if they rolled they char within a week of release.

We had two druids who started playing the day WoW came out who rolled thier druids to be tanks. One of them didn't even train cat form until a few months after hitting 60 because he wanted to be a bear, not a cat.

Which raises the question.
Why didnt they roll a warrior if the wanted to do nothing but tank ?
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#52 Icantregister

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 08:32 PM

Look me in the eye and tell me on day 1 of release your rolled a druid to tank. Noone Ive met can do that, maybe later in the game they realized bearform was fun and viable and they could tank but look me in the eye and tell me you rolled your toon solely to tank. I dare any druid to do that if they rolled they char within a week of release.

We had two druids who started playing the day WoW came out who rolled thier druids to be tanks. One of them didn't even train cat form until a few months after hitting 60 because he wanted to be a bear, not a cat.

Which raises the question.
Why didnt they roll a warrior if the wanted to do nothing but tank ?

I don't quite understand why you ask that, seeing that you rolled your Paladin just for tanking, too?

#53 Judia

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 07:00 AM


We had two druids who started playing the day WoW came out who rolled thier druids to be tanks. One of them didn't even train cat form until a few months after hitting 60 because he wanted to be a bear, not a cat.

Which raises the question.
Why didnt they roll a warrior if the wanted to do nothing but tank ?

I don't quite understand why you ask that, seeing that you rolled your Paladin just for tanking, too?

Mhm,
I played alot of games prior to WoW, and the general palaidn template was a class that tanked as least as effectively as a warrior, but which had no option to deal damage. Instead of a DD option paladins came with a small number of buffs or a very inefficient heal. When I read the description of hte WoW paladin it seemed to match up so on day 1 I rolled my paladin and played it as a tank, very sucessfully, until I hit MC. At that point It bacame clear that I wasnt rally a tank class, although I was able to tank and help out ocassionally. I adapted and aceptd my role because I didnt have the time or inclination to reroll a warrior.

Essentially I rolled a paladin to be a tank, somewhat in ignorance, and somewhat decieved by the fact paladins could tank at the time pretty damn well with the exception of bossess that needed a taunt. The same simply isnt true of druids, druids were NEVER sold as tanks, they were sold as primary healers with some shape-shifting ability, druids have no background in previous games as tanks either, there is no presidence of a game where druids are the second best tanking class to my knowledge.

Basically, druids who rolled on day 1 of release had no reason to presume they would be as good at tanking as they are, certainly not to the extent they would play their class almost as if it only had bearform, which some posters (Mootan) appear to do. So why would they roll a druid to tank and nothing else ?
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#54 Guest_Adalys_*

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 04:36 PM

druids were NEVER sold as tanks, they were sold as primary healers with some shape-shifting ability, druids have no background in previous games as tanks either, there is no presidence of a game where druids are the second best tanking class to my knowledge.

Basically, druids who rolled on day 1 of release had no reason to presume they would be as good at tanking as they are, certainly not to the extent they would play their class almost as if it only had bearform, which some posters (Mootan) appear to do. So why would they roll a druid to tank and nothing else ?

At the risk of Thread Necromancy, I hesitantly put forth the theory that a little known game called Warcraft III
might be semi responsable for this.

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 08:46 PM

As an attempted PVE shadow priest, I'll throw my 2 cents in:

There is definitely use for shadowpriests in raids; however, it's unreasonable to expect that as a shadowpriest you be DPS in every fight. If you want to do that, roll a pure DPS class. Shadowpriests have their advantages and disadvantages; yes, mana is an issue that is only partially alleviated with consumables, etc.. But, especially as horde, there are many encounters where you are more useful in another role, be it healing, dispelling, etc.. The question is really what can you do that best benefits your raid, and the answer is often not DPS. The advantage of bringing a shadowpriest to a raid is flexibility - your raid leader can decide how best to use the shadowpriest on a particular encounter. A shadowpriest DPSing during the Huhuran 30% enrage would probably be useful (depending on how healer-heavy the raid is), a shadowpriest DPSing on Chromaggus is probably a bad idea. There are fights where you can do both: for example, DPS during phase 1 of Nef and then drop shadowform to heal during phase 2. So in my opinion, the reason to bring a shadowpriest to the raid is not pure DPS or pure healing, but rather having the option of being able to use him as either one depending on what the encounter calls for.

#56 Lord BEEF

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 09:09 PM

Basically, druids who rolled on day 1 of release had no reason to presume they would be as good at tanking as they are, certainly not to the extent they would play their class almost as if it only had bearform, which some posters (Mootan) appear to do. So why would they roll a druid to tank and nothing else ?

While I believe anyone who rolled their druid to perform a single role is a bit silly, it's a fair assumption to think that Blizzard had the intention of making them viable tanks due to their class description. The same goes for Paladins really, but Paladins got hosed in that regard.
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#57 Zellyn

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 12:39 AM

I think a lot of classes got hosed when it comes to raiding.

Warlocks: Supposed to be super debuffers, but they become little more than shadowmages with more DoTs.
Druids: Jack-of-all-trades that becomes either a healbot or a gimmick.
Paladins: A different kind of jack who become healbot uber-buffers.
Rogues: The supposed number one DPS class that ends being matched by most other DPS classes and offers little else to the raid.

It comes down to this: I can do one job very well, or I can try to do what another class does better.
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#58 Starks

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 12:43 AM

I think a lot of classes got hosed when it comes to raiding.

Warlocks: Supposed to be super debuffers, but they become little more than shadowmages with more DoTs.
Druids: Jack-of-all-trades that becomes either a healbot or a gimmick.
Paladins: A different kind of jack who become healbot uber-buffers.
Rogues: The supposed number one DPS class that ends being matched by most other DPS classes and offers little else to the raid.

It comes down to this: I can do one job very well, or I can try to do what another class does better.

You're gonna put a paladin on the list for classes who get hosed for raiding but not shaman? /boggle

#59 Zellyn

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 12:46 AM

I'm sure that you could make a list with nine entries, but I was mostly working with the classes I know best.
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#60 Quigon

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 12:54 AM

Min/maxing for the win.




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