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[Fury/Arms] Rawr.DPSWarr Thread


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#1 ebs2002

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 06:29 PM

Current Release: Rawr 2.2.20

Why should I use Rawr?
Rawr is not meant to replace Landsoul's sheet. It is meant to be used in conjunction with it. Any major discrepancy between Rawr and Landsoul's sheet should be reported to me for investigation before you move on and waste gold/time/materials on what could be a bug. We have not had the exposure that Landsoul has had, and so bugs are still possible.

Landsoul's spreadsheet is fantastic. I'm an avid user of it. However, nothing is perfect, and Landsoul has had bugs in the past. Having a second tool that simulates Warrior DPS will help make both tools better, as discrepancies could mean a bug in Rawr, or it could mean a bug in Landsoul's sheet.

Also, there are a lot of features that come with the Rawr package that you just can't get in a spreadsheet due to technical limitations. For one, Rawr will let you flag all the items/gems/enchants/buffs that you have available, and automatically optimize itself to tell you the best items to wear and the best way to gem/enchant them. It removes a lot of the guesswork needed by finding the best solution for you. You can also set parameters that you want to optimize on, such as maintaining a certain buffed health, crit chance, miss/dodge/parry chance, or resist rate.

Rawr also has custom combat options you can set if you're optimizing for a specific fight. You can set how long you're attacking the boss from behind, how often you need to move out of combat range, how often you may be feared/stunned, and how often you're able to hit multiple targets. It also provides custom calculations for maintaining buffs or debuffs on the raid. If you need to maintain Sunder Armor or Demo Shout, Rawr will replace global cooldowns with those abilities, decreasing your DPS and providing value to talents/glyphs that increase their duration (and in the case of Thunderclap and Demo Shout, spell hit buffs are given a value).

Rawr does not use SEP in its gear ranking. When it's telling you how much of a DPS increase each item is, it does so by actually swapping the item into your current gear and calculating how much your DPS increases. It also has a feature to evaluate the strength of an upgrade based on other items you may have sitting in your bags (ie, you're at the expertise cap already, but if you pick up that new belt with expertise, you can swap out your expertise/hit gem and your expertise ring for a larger upgrade). This takes only a few clicks; no more manually swapping your gear around to find out if that new belt is an actual upgrade!

Lastly, Rawr is not plagued by #N/A or #DIV/0 errors that are easy to get when you're using landsoul's sheet.

What Rawr Doesn't Do
It wouldn't be fair to landsoul if I touted all the things that Rawr does better without also explaining what landsoul's sheet does better.

1) It is much easier to make changes to landsoul's sheet than it is to make changes to Rawr. Rawr is open source, but it's written in CSharp; if you don't know CSharp or you don't have Visual Studio, you won't be able to make changes to the actual calculations. However, you can still create new items or change procs/trinket use effects to your hearts content.

2) It's more difficult to find specific errors in Rawr for the same reason as it is to make changes (see #1). If you have a CSharp IDE and can step through code, it's very easy to find/fix bugs, but if you do not then Rawr will be more of a black box than landsoul's sheet is.

3) Landsoul's rotation is more intelligent than Rawr's is right now. We've been working on a way to create dynamic rotations in Rawr (ie, "Slam if there is more than 1.23 seconds on Bloodthirst's cooldown"), but this is not in yet. Fury's rotation is a simple 1xWW, 2xBT and 1xSlam every 8 seconds. Arms uses a priority list based on ability cooldowns and whack-a-mole chances)

4) Landsoul is the author of both the Arms and Fury warrior modules of his spreadsheet. I am the Fury programmer for Rawr, and Jothay is the arms programmer for Rawr. We both work on the code shared between the two (like white attacks and the like). Because of this, we occasionally have a change in Arms that creates a bug in Fury, and vise-versa. We've been working very hard to prevent these from occuring, but it's still a real concern.

Conclusion
I'd like to start gathering feedback from the community. Do people find this utility useful? What bugs have you found? What new features would you like to see?

Please specify between Fury and Arms bugs, and please keep in mind that they are developed separately: bugs in Fury do not necessarily mean that Arms is broken, and vise-versa.

---------------------
Notes about current release
- Armor Penetration nerf from 3.2.2 is included
- Sword Spec buff from 3.2.2 is included, although you will need to check the "PTR Mode" box in the options panel

Known Bugs
- Fury rotation could use improvement
- Fury does not implement all of the Combat variables (such as stunning targets); Arms does

#2 Jothay

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 06:53 PM

Please feel free at any time to ask questions here on this thread regarding Rawr.DPSWarr (base Rawr has a thread in the main Class Mechanics forum). However, before doing so, please note that we have several resources at our disposal that may be able to answer your question before publicly asking it.

  • The Rawr Discussions Page: This is easily searchable and answers a lot of questions right off the bat. Chances are, if you are asking it, someone else already has.
  • The Rawr Issue Tracker: Use this to report issues with DPSWarr and the Base Rawr program. Be sure to check both Open and previously Closed issues before posting a new one.
  • The DPSWarr Options Pane in Rawr: In here there's an entire section dedicated to How to Use DPSWarr (for Basic and Advanced Users), Frequently Asked Questions, and the Patch Notes. MANY questions can be answered simply by reading through these.


#3 Vulgrym

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 08:21 PM

I'd like to start gathering feedback from the community. Do people find this utility useful?


I find it very useful and am impressed with the work that has been put in; kudos to the both of you. I've primarily been using the Arms module, but have fiddled with both.

I'd love to see some "SEP-like" relative stat value weightings for currently equipped gear. Yes, the interface is great and it's simple enough to swap gear in and out of the different slots to judge immediate impact, but I like to "eyeball" loot options from lists and seeing how stat weightings are affected by different setups helps to plot multiple gear paths. This is something I value.

I probably don't put as much value into the Optimizer. With loot-systems and other guild nuances factored in to gear, I'm interested in slightly-less-than optimal setups just as much and I end up tinkering with gear inclusions/exclusions to the extent that finally running the Optimizer becomes a moot point.

#4 Jothay

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 08:33 PM

I'd love to see some "SEP-like" relative stat value weightings for currently equipped gear. Yes, the interface is great and it's simple enough to swap gear in and out of the different slots to judge immediate impact, but I like to "eyeball" loot options from lists and seeing how stat weightings are affected by different setups helps to plot multiple gear paths. This is something I value.


Astrylian is very set against us using/including an SEP chart as it's BAD way to really compare gear, 1 point in any stat change and there can be a drastic change in the SEP, so it's not really an accurate way to do things. For those that are desperate for SEP, we do have a Relative Stat Values chart, which basically shows you how 1 more of that stat would change your DPS. Eg- How much DPS do I gain from 1 more Hit Rating vs 1 more Strength, but anything beyond that can have more serious repercussions on the rest of the calculations.

Remember, Rawr does not in any way use SEP. Instead we actually calculate your DPS based upon parameters given (time in movement, boss level, etc.) and your Actual Stats with weighted/averaged uptimes on your Procs (Executioner, Berserking, Trinkets, etc).
Come see the Rawr Project for all World of Warcraft Classes and Specs!
- Astrylian: Project Coordinator, Bear & Cat Dev
- Jothay: Project Coordinator & Arms Warrior Dev

#5 Vulgrym

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 08:56 PM

To be honest, I had never even noticed Relative Stat Values (under Slot: in the Comparisons area) until you mentioned it.

The DPS gain from each additional stat method is sufficient for me; thanks for pointing it out.

#6 ebs2002

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 09:02 PM

I probably don't put as much value into the Optimizer. With loot-systems and other guild nuances factored in to gear, I'm interested in slightly-less-than optimal setups just as much and I end up tinkering with gear inclusions/exclusions to the extent that finally running the Optimizer becomes a moot point.

Well, Optimizing isn't just for finding a BIS setup. It's also great just to determine what the best way to gem/enchant your gear is. Personally, I always optimize whenever I get a new piece, and I make sure I have everything that I have access to selected with a green diamond. This is especially useful when, as an orc, I had KT's axe and a Stormrune Edge and was trying to decide if I should gem for exp and put the axe in the offhand, or put the axe in the mainhand and gem for strength.

Also, I want to give credit where credit is due. Rawr is a team project led by Astrylian, with lots of developers. Jothay and I are just the ones who have done the DPSWarr calculations. But thanks for the kind words :)

#7 BWarner

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 09:39 PM

To derive something that ill come as close as you'll ever get to a set of SEP values in Rawr, take the Relative Stat Values mentioned above, and divide each number in the list by the current value of Strength that you see there. Be aware that this is still not the same as providing clear SEP values, even for gemming. It's been said a number of times, but I'd like to say again: Rawr does not use weighted stat values (eg., SEP) in its internal calculations, and never will. This is by deliberate design decision.

Running the Optimizer never becomes a moot point. The availability of a host of options to set (buffs, selecting gear as available, etc.) makes Optimize eternally relevant. Running Evaluate Upgrade will even show how much of an upgrade each piece is, to compare one drop against another in a significantly more powerful manner than simply equipping it (it essentially equips the piece and then runs an optimize, and when you run the Build Upgrade List, it does this for every single piece of loot available).

I think you two already know how much I value Rawr as a tool for comparing gear and building gear sets, and I personally appreciate the time and effort you have both put into the project.

Now, about Markovian processes... >=)

#8 Charmath

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 09:53 PM

I have used Rawr quite a bit and it's been fun to see how the DPSWarr module has improved over the last few months. It's very user friendly to people who have just started trying it out, yet very powerful for experienced users. I have a few minor suggestions and all of them might not be specific to the DPSWarr, but to the program its self:

  • Nothing major, but when you load from armory, could the region/realm/character be set as default once you've typed it, so you don't have to type it each time you load your character?
  • I saw the relentless meta got added to the gemming templates, which is nice. It can get a bit tedious to add new custom templates with each new release so I would also like to see templates with hit and expertise (I tend to add those myself).
  • One thing I would really like to see is not only the red lines which indicate how much of an upgrade a specific item, enchant or gem is, but also a numerical value, so you don't have to swap between "Direct Upgrades", Gems and Buffs to see how much of an upgrade it actually is. I know I can select "Gear: Slot>Head" etc and get a relatively quick estimate, but would also like to see the value when you click the items in your gear.
  • When I deselect the filter for heroic Totc25, the iLvl258 tier items still show up.
  • No biggie and I know I can select it myself in "Refine types of items listed", but when you choose the fury calculations, perhaps Polearms could be de-selected automatically.
  • Armor penetration shows as an averaged percentage atm. I understand it's probably the easiest way to deal with it, but I would like to see the percentage with gear/buffs and proc(s) seperately, so you know what your "base" ArP is and how far you are from soft cap.

That's all the concerns I have for now. I hope most of it made sense. I'll add stuff as I run into it. Thanks for a wonderful tool and keep up the great work!

#9 BWarner

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 11:16 PM

No need, as you should be using a character profile for any persistent character that you're dealing with (an Arms spec, a Fury spec, a general Prot spec, a Block Prot spec, whatever). These are saved locally (on your own machine), and you can maintain your settings/items from session to session.

No need to add full gemming templates as default, only the most common. The Optimizer does not use just the gems in the Gemming Templates, but also the ones you select as available in the Slot: Gems > Normal section. These are attached to your Character Profile, so again, these persist from session to session, and usually from version to version.

The 258 Tier Items are from chests, and chest items are not attached to any particular version of an instance, because there is not distintion made from Armory/Wowhead data. Looking for a fix for this now.

I tentatively like the deselecting Polearms idea, though it's probably not necessary. I've noticed recently (last few updates) that Fury is starting to recommend Polearms while Dual-wielding as Fury, and fixing this issue would fix Polearms for Fury as a whole.

ArP on the stats pane shows as an average, but it calculates single ArP-proccing trinks correctly (ignoring any ArP over the effectiveness cap when procced). It would be nice to separate the passive ArP from the procced ArP on the ArP line in the Stats tab, though.

#10 Artrigis

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 05:12 AM

Hey, I noticed that there aren't any pvp weapons on the gear list. Are you planning on adding these weapons soon? Specifically the 1800 required weapons.

#11 BWarner

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 05:49 AM

Rawr will never "Add" items, as the developers of Rawr do not manually create the items, but rather, import the data from the Armory or Wowhead.

Specifically to Warriors, ensure that you do not have "Hide Bad Items" checked in the Options panel, as the Resilience probably flags this as a "bad item".

I think this is simply a matter of Filters. Check that you have enabled "PvP" in your item filters, if you want to compare items that come from, well, PvP.

For your particular issue, if it turns out that you do not in fact have this item in your cache, there's three ways of going about this. One is super simple: "Tools > Load Possible Upgrades From Armory / Wowhead". The second is pretty easy, too: If you notice any single item missing from the default cache, you can use the "Tools > Edit Items... > Add..." function to manually force any particular item to be loaded. The third isn't much harder: Tools > Import from Wowhead Filter. I created a Wowhead filter to include all ranged and two-handed weapons, Rare quality and above, iLvL187 and above. qu=3:4:5;sl=17;ty=6:1:5:8:2:18:3:16;minle=187 To get items from a Wowhead filter, create the filter you would like through Wowhead's database search, apply any filters you like (remember that Ctrl-click selects multiple items at a time), and hit "apply filter" to generate the filter in your address bar.

#12 Essequibo

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 09:26 AM

I somehow can't equip my 245 item level Dual-blade Butcher. It does not show up in the drop down menu, or in the optimiser, there is only the heroic version available. Surprisingly Helion Glaive is available in both versions.

I managed to find the armory import, and my gear showed up correctly, so no biggie.

#13 Gristle

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 10:20 AM

ArP on the stats pane shows as an average, but it calculates single ArP-proccing trinks correctly (ignoring any ArP over the effectiveness cap when procced). It would be nice to separate the passive ArP from the procced ArP on the ArP line in the Stats tab, though.


Seconded. Also the tooltip for ArP gives the "Rating to Cap" as 1232, rather than the post-nerf 1400. Double-checking by removing Mjolnir seems to indicate that ArP is correct in the sheet, but the tooltip is out of date. With the sheer amount of questions on STR vs ArP gemming every day on this forum, any clarity at all is welcome.

Quite a solid app, thanks for the work on it.

#14 Faithireon

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 01:11 PM

I've been using both RAWR and Landsoul's sheet for about 7 months now. My only concern with RAWR is that it has consistently shown the exact opposite results on what I consider to be a warrior's primary question when it comes to gearing: ArP gems or STR gems. Whether I use my Grim Toll or not, RAWR consistently tells me that ArP gems beat out STR gems while Landsoul's sheet seems to have a clear inflection point where ArP is better and then once the softcap is reached, STR is better once again. I don't get this result in RAWR. I believe this is due to the fact that Grim Toll's ArP proc is averaged as mentioned above. Because of this, I have always stuck with Landsoul's output.

#15 FrnZ

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 01:24 PM

yes, even with the arpen nerf, rawr recommends me to keep the arp gems(with grim toll), but yet ill wait for the landsoul update if is possible to compare

#16 Gruntle

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 02:58 PM

Astrylian is very set against us using/including an SEP chart as it's BAD way to really compare gear, 1 point in any stat change and there can be a drastic change in the SEP, so it's not really an accurate way to do things. For those that are desperate for SEP, we do have a Relative Stat Values chart, which basically shows you how 1 more of that stat would change your DPS. Eg- How much DPS do I gain from 1 more Hit Rating vs 1 more Strength, but anything beyond that can have more serious repercussions on the rest of the calculations.

Remember, Rawr does not in any way use SEP. Instead we actually calculate your DPS based upon parameters given (time in movement, boss level, etc.) and your Actual Stats with weighted/averaged uptimes on your Procs (Executioner, Berserking, Trinkets, etc).


Hmm, your Relative Stat Values is actually a SEP calculation. I'm not 100% sure how landsoul's sheet does SEP nowadays but the way to calculate them have always been to calculate the DPS increase for an increase of x in strength. You then get the DPS/strength by dividing the DPS increase by x. You then do the same for all stats and can calcaulate SEP values by dividing the delta(DPS)/x for the stat you're interested in by the same quantity for strength. So your table just gives you the delta(DPS)/x for each stat (unnormalized SEP that can be used as weights for any Pawn-like addon or on WoWhead).

The statement, "1 point in any stat change and there can be a drastic change in the SEP", is that really correct? I would think that it's only true when you're close to caps. Maybe things have changed greatly with WoTLK, but back in TBC the SEP values changed rather slowly (unless you reached a cap).

SEP values are an excellent tool when you realise the limitations of them, I don't see why you wouldn't include them as an information panel in Rawr (well you do that already, but you don't call them SEP). If I'm thinking about whether to roll/bid or not on a piece of gear that drops I cannot expect the raid to wait for me to alt-tab, fire up Rawr and check whether it is an good enough upgrade or not. Having SEP values to go after is way quicker and certainly accurate enough. I would argue that the accuracy of the DPS calculations in Rawr (as well as the spreadsheet of course) are in any case not so accurate that you can trust the resulting DPS figures to be within 1% of the true DPS. This accuracy is dependent on theorycrafting, and there are some assumptions that go into it, we do not have access to the real algorithms that are used by Blizzard.

I agree that it is good that you do not use these SEP-like values to calculate gear rankings, I've always found that a bit questionable in landsoul's sheet. However, and I guess you know this, the actual DPS calculations in landsoul's sheet do not use the SEP values either and the way of actually finding the best possible setup is still to try different gear combinations manually rather than trusting the rankings.

I also like the way you can change stuff around for different fights and circumstances.

#17 ebs2002

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 05:21 PM

Thanks for all the feedback! For right now, I'm only going to address the DPS Warrior specific comments in detail.

Nothing major, but when you load from armory, could the region/realm/character be set as default once you've typed it, so you don't have to type it each time you load your character?

This is a base-application feature. It's recommended that you save the profile and load it rather than from armory, as buffs and options are preserved.

I saw the relentless meta got added to the gemming templates, which is nice. It can get a bit tedious to add new custom templates with each new release so I would also like to see templates with hit and expertise (I tend to add those myself).

We could, or you could just mark the individual gems you'd like to consider in addition to the templates. There's two schools of thought in Rawr: everything in a gem template, or only the most often used gemming in the gem template. For performance reasons, I usually opt for the latter, but if enough people would prefer more gem templates then that's an easy fix.

No biggie and I know I can select it myself in "Refine types of items listed", but when you choose the fury calculations, perhaps Polearms could be de-selected automatically.

I think this is a more recent bug with some work Jothay did on defining relevent items. I'll look into it; this should not be happening.

Armor penetration shows as an averaged percentage atm. I understand it's probably the easiest way to deal with it, but I would like to see the percentage with gear/buffs and proc(s) seperately, so you know what your "base" ArP is and how far you are from soft cap.

Easy to do. I'm planning on reworking the arp a little more; the soft cap *is* implemented, but it could be a little stronger. Note that passive arp doesn't get weaker as you pass the soft-cap, but that Mjolnir Runestone and Grim Toll procs become weaker. Before this patch, it was possible to make it so that these trinkets were not BIS anymore, but after the patch you really should be aiming for the softcap.

----

RE: PvP weapons displaying. BrWarner is correct on all accounts here. It's probably because you have "Hide bad items" checked. This is just a way to filter out items that have unnecessary stats, but there will still be times when you want to use an item like this.

----

I've been using both RAWR and Landsoul's sheet for about 7 months now. My only concern with RAWR is that it has consistently shown the exact opposite results on what I consider to be a warrior's primary question when it comes to gearing: ArP gems or STR gems. Whether I use my Grim Toll or not, RAWR consistently tells me that ArP gems beat out STR gems while Landsoul's sheet seems to have a clear inflection point where ArP is better and then once the softcap is reached, STR is better once again. I don't get this result in RAWR. I believe this is due to the fact that Grim Toll's ArP proc is averaged as mentioned above. Because of this, I have always stuck with Landsoul's output.



For a while, there was a bug in DPSWarr where the softcap wasn't implemented due to averaging. I've since changed it so the soft-cap is considered. The checking for the ArP cap was done after the trinket was averaged, now it's added before. If you're at 70% passive ArP, the trinket procs will now only average out 30% of the ArP rather than the full effect.

Now that you mention it, though, there's an optimization I can make here. Rather than a flat average ArP rating, I should be giving a weighted ArP rating because ArP is not linear. I'll try to get that fix in soon. If you can please go to the Issue Tracker in Rawr and post a character file where Rawr still recommends ArP gemming in a way inconsistent with Landsoul's sheet, it should help me nail down the root cause.

---

Regarding the use of SEP, what Jothay was trying to stress is that we calculate an SEP for you (well, it's relative stat values, but the same premise applies), but we don't use those numbers anywhere in the program. Landsoul's sheet uses SEP values to rank gear, but it doesn't take into consideration capped values like Hit or Expertise. That's why he's had the override cells to try and make up for that. Being 3 rating below the hit soft-cap can make items with hit appear much more attractive than they actually are.

And you're right, SEP doesn't change drastically unless you're near a hard- or soft-cap, or if you're near a hidden peak/valley in the way calculations are performed (ie, the "Don't Slam if you have less than 1.49secs left on Bloodthirst" vs "Don't slam if you have less than 1.51secs left on Bloodthirst" could really change the number of slams you get off).

Generally, we recommend people use the "Build Upgrade List" feature, which will tell you how much of a DPS increase an actual item gives you (including re-optimizing to change gems/enchants or swap out that old hit ring you needed to stay capped for a better crit/arp ring). If you're in a pinch and you understand the pitfalls of SEP/RelativeStatValues, you're free to use them.

#18 Excession

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 10:44 PM

In Rawr.DPSWarr 2.2.19 there is something wrong with Enraged Regeneration. Toggling it changes the DPS value of hit rating from 1.12 with it off (about where I'd expect it) to 1.78 with it on, which is equal to strength and obviously wrong.

#19 ebs2002

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 11:14 PM

In Rawr.DPSWarr 2.2.19 there is something wrong with Enraged Regeneration. Toggling it changes the DPS value of hit rating from 1.12 with it off (about where I'd expect it) to 1.78 with it on, which is equal to strength and obviously wrong.


Hmm, good catch. I have a repro of this for my own character right now; I'll look in to it. Are you seeing this with arms or fury?

#20 Excession

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 12:23 AM

I'm seeing it with Fury, haven't tried Arms.




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