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[Fury/Arms] Rawr.DPSWarr Thread


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#21 Jothay

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 05:09 AM

Generally, we recommend people use the "Build Upgrade List" feature, which will tell you how much of a DPS increase an actual item gives you (including re-optimizing to change gems/enchants or swap out that old hit ring you needed to stay capped for a better crit/arp ring). If you're in a pinch and you understand the pitfalls of SEP/RelativeStatValues, you're free to use them.


What we see a lot of users do is run a Build Upgrade List at full thoroughness, print the results, and have that 'at the ready' during raids. Then it's just a matter of finding the item in the list (you can sort by Overall, DPS, Survivability or Alphabetically before printing, lists can also be saved to files and recalled later so you don't have to re-run the Upgrade list).
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#22 Vulgrym

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 08:03 AM

No need to add full gemming templates as default, only the most common. The Optimizer does not use just the gems in the Gemming Templates, but also the ones you select as available in the Slot: Gems > Normal section. These are attached to your Character Profile, so again, these persist from session to session, and usually from version to version.


This was gold; I'd completely missed that. This thread was an excellent idea.

#23 suicuique

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 08:11 AM

Using my gear and checking relative stat values, I get "hit" valued more than "haste".
This is with being yellow hit capped, and I have difficulties in understanding this. Shouldn't be haste superior to hit once yellow capped? (short reasoning: haste profits heroic strike and affects crits/glancings/hit of the hit table, while hit just converts a miss to hit)
This was using rawr 2.2.18

#24 Ran Newman

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 12:42 PM

Sicquieque, i am not trying to say hit is better then haste, however your reasoning is wrong. Haste only increase the number of white attacks you can make overall, not the % of heroic strikes you make out of them.

#25 Scyne

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 12:58 PM

Sicquieque, i am not trying to say hit is better then haste, however your reasoning is wrong. Haste only increase the number of white attacks you can make overall, not the % of heroic strikes you make out of them.


Im intrested in this as well. Consider a practically infinite rage encounter where you can spam HS or cleave about as much as you want. In that case, hit only increase the anmount of white offhand hits while haste increase offhand hits + the number of cleaves/heroic strikes you can use.

#26 ebs2002

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 01:31 PM

Im intrested in this as well. Consider a practically infinite rage encounter where you can spam HS or cleave about as much as you want. In that case, hit only increase the anmount of white offhand hits while haste increase offhand hits + the number of cleaves/heroic strikes you can use.


That scenario doesn't exist in Rawr. There is no infinite rage scenario, as that would require incoming damage (which we haven't modeled). In your scenario, yes Haste would be more valuable, because you could make every single MH attack a HS even if your offhand had streaks of misses. In a limited rage situation, however, it's not surprising to me that hit is more valuable for you. You can tell if you're in a limited rage situation by looking at the tooltip for your White Attacks -- if your MH DPS is greater than 0, you're in a limited rage situation.

Hit increases your rage and how frequently you can HS. Haste also increases your rage and how frequently you can HS. How much each of these are increased depends on what your current stats are.

Also note that if you're maintaining any debuffs (notably Demo Shout or Thunderclap), hit affects these. Demo/Thunderclap all have a spell hit requirement and not a melee hit requirement, so even beyond the cap this makes sense.

And of course, if you're below the hit cap, hit will always be more valuable.

I'm going to be looking into the value of hit today (to investigate the Commanding Presence bug), so if I have found anything that decreases the value of hit I'll let you know.

#27 Scyne

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 02:58 PM

That scenario doesn't exist in Rawr. There is no infinite rage scenario, as that would require incoming damage (which we haven't modeled). In your scenario, yes Haste would be more valuable, because you could make every single MH attack a HS even if your offhand had streaks of misses. In a limited rage situation, however, it's not surprising to me that hit is more valuable for you. You can tell if you're in a limited rage situation by looking at the tooltip for your White Attacks -- if your MH DPS is greater than 0, you're in a limited rage situation.

Hit increases your rage and how frequently you can HS. Haste also increases your rage and how frequently you can HS. How much each of these are increased depends on what your current stats are.

Also note that if you're maintaining any debuffs (notably Demo Shout or Thunderclap), hit affects these. Demo/Thunderclap all have a spell hit requirement and not a melee hit requirement, so even beyond the cap this makes sense.

And of course, if you're below the hit cap, hit will always be more valuable.

I'm going to be looking into the value of hit today (to investigate the Commanding Presence bug), so if I have found anything that decreases the value of hit I'll let you know.


Any plans on adding an option for rage gain from incoming damage? I think about Twin Valkyrs for example where the ticking aura grants you a close to infinite rage scenario (Now it is not the best example because of the empowered dark/light buff but anyway).

It could be intresting to see how raid damage could factor in how stats are valued.

#28 Vulgrym

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 04:22 PM

I'm trying to understand how Rawr determines the value of Expertise in Arms. I have a fairly typical setup for a raiding Arms Warrior (2pc + Archon Glaive and ArP hard capped prior to 3.2.2). It seems no matter what items I include for the Optimizer to consider , Rawr prioritizes hitting ArP cap above all other things, including Hit and Expertise caps. In fact, the setup that is being generated for me right now (max thoroughness) removes ALL Expertise from gear and puts me at 214 Hit rating (I have Heroic Presence toggled to on). Even with OP from Dodges making up some of the difference of a missed White hit, this seems counterintuitive.

Also, there are some bugs in the Ability Maintenance screen. Toggling Battle Shout to on results in a 300ish DPS increase (toggling Commanding Shout to on results in more predictable, very slight decrease). Toggling Berserker Rage to off results in a 200ish DPS increase, which seems high (by comparison, turing Bloodrage off results in a 16 DPS increase).

#29 BWarner

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 05:14 PM

I'm trying to understand how Rawr determines the value of Expertise in Arms. I have a fairly typical setup for a raiding Arms Warrior (2pc + Archon Glaive and ArP hard capped prior to 3.2.2). It seems no matter what items I include for the Optimizer to consider , Rawr prioritizes hitting ArP cap above all other things, including Hit and Expertise caps. In fact, the setup that is being generated for me right now (max thoroughness) removes ALL Expertise from gear and puts me at 214 Hit rating (I have Heroic Presence toggled to on). Even with OP from Dodges making up some of the difference of a missed White hit, this seems counterintuitive.

Also, there are some bugs in the Ability Maintenance screen. Toggling Battle Shout to on results in a 300ish DPS increase (toggling Commanding Shout to on results in more predictable, very slight decrease). Toggling Berserker Rage to off results in a 200ish DPS increase, which seems high (by comparison, turing Bloodrage off results in a 16 DPS increase).


In regards to your Ability Maintenance questions: If you have not set improved Battle / Might in the Buffs tab, and you have Commanding Presence, you are jumping from an unimproved to an improved, as Ability Maintenance takes your Talents and Glyphs into account. By toggling Berserker Rage to on, what you're doing is telling the model to spend one GCD every 30s, and because there is not yet modeling of incoming damage, there is no rage benefit. Bloodrage, by comparison, does not draw a GCD, and simply adds rage.

It would be nice to refine how different abilities are being maintained. Some abilities could be forced to only fill in after the primary damage abilities, and replace Slams (potentially even MS?) / sit in the unused GCDs of Fury.

#30 BWarner

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 07:01 PM

Also, here is the current DPSWarr Discussions thread over at Rawr's pad: Rawr - Discussions - The New DPSWarr, Triumphs and Tribulations . There's a great deal of information about the model that's already been discussed, and may be able to answer some questions you may have about how something in the model works. I'm not meaning to draw discussion away from this (EJ) thread, but rather, pointing to some existing discussion about the DPSWarr module.

#31 Jothay

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 07:04 PM

I am going to make a more powerful priority system in Arms but I'm probably not going to make it until after Rawr3's real release. I have a lot of work to do with the Boss Handler until then so that we can create the Boss Tab in Rawr3 (next to the Options Tab) so that's it's generic to all models and all models can set up their stuff however they want to integrate with that main thing.

Users of DPSWarr get the preview of how it all works in the Fight Info tab as I'm doing all the work there to get the kinks out, then I'll push it to a separate thing.

I do have plans to incorporate Boss Damage and a mock-up of the methodology per boss is in the BossHandler but I have yet to make it effective. I need to work out the processes of Attacks being AoE vs single-target (from the Boss) as well as some other things before I can do this though. Once completed, I'll make you take damage as a character, which will place a higher importance on your Survivability Scale, and I'll make it handle your personal Dodges, etc. where applicable (I'm not going to make Dodge, etc. a Relevant Stat for DPSWarr). That damage will then be converted into Rage, which at the current time, will only increase HS%. I will be adding more logic in so that there's extra rage for Sudden Death and Execute Spamming later (I tried this once already but it was gimping things and I didn't like it).
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#32 Vulgrym

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 08:23 PM

Also, here is the current DPSWarr Discussions thread over at Rawr's pad: Rawr - Discussions - The New DPSWarr, Triumphs and Tribulations . There's a great deal of information about the model that's already been discussed, and may be able to answer some questions you may have about how something in the model works. I'm not meaning to draw discussion away from this (EJ) thread, but rather, pointing to some existing discussion about the DPSWarr module.


Thanks for the tip. I checked that thread and found a post by Killkool on July 23rd that accurately describes my issue. In a nutshell, it seems that high values of ArP completely skew Expertise and Hit priorities. This is throwing off Optimizer results, as gear with Exp+Hit are being excluded from the final result if the algorithm can find a way to cap (or near-cap) ArP. I see no direct response to this problem.

#33 Jothay

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 09:02 PM

You can set an optimizer requirement to force yourself to be hit/expertise capped (% Chance to be Avoided <= 0)

Edit: Note that this is Yellow Hit capped (8%) and Dodge Expertise capped (6.5% (-2%=4.5% if WM))
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#34 BWarner

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 09:11 PM

I personally set two separate requirements, % Chance to be Missed <= 0 ; Chance to be Dodged <= 1 . Also, we're hopefully getting the option to set decimal percents at some point in the future (% Chance to be Missed <= .2 ; Chance to be Dodged <= .5% , something along those lines).

#35 Vulgrym

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 09:15 PM

You can set an optimizer requirement to force yourself to be hit/expertise capped (% Chance to be Avoided <= 0)


Yep, that's what I've been doing in Rawr and have been gearing accordingly as well. I just wanted to highlight that you can get a (significantly) higher DPS rating via the Optimizer by not "forcing" it. Maybe not everybody will follow my initial logic, but I had assumed that it would balance those caps by default. If this is intended, maybe include a qualifier somewhere?

EDIT: % Chance to be Missed <= 0 ; Chance to be Dodged <= 1 is exactly what I use as well.

#36 Jothay

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 09:18 PM

Yep, that's what I've been doing in Rawr and have been gearing accordingly as well. I just wanted to highlight that you can get a (significantly) higher DPS rating via the Optimizer by not "forcing" it. Maybe not everybody will follow my initial logic, but I had assumed that it would balance those caps by default. If this is intended, maybe include a qualifier somewhere?

EDIT: % Chance to be Missed <= 0 ; Chance to be Dodged <= 1 is exactly what I use as well.


The problem is ArP's bad scaling, we've taken a TON of efforts to make it gravitate to Hit/Expertise caps (or like within a Gem's worth) but ArP still has that point where it just goes and goes and goes.

As to that other person's issue with ArP and having one of the ArP Trinkets, set a ArP% limit req on the optimizer = rating where you get the most out of that trinket + whatever % it's adding in Rawr so it can't go above that amount when optimizing. With that req you should end up Exp/Hit capped (if you have the gear for it). Otherwise set BOTH requirements, with Hit/Exp higher in the list.

EDIT: For everyone's edification, I put this into excel to make up some numbers people can use.. See the post towards the end here
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#37 Gurlock

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Posted 25 September 2009 - 09:59 PM

Also, here is the current DPSWarr Discussions thread over at Rawr's pad: Rawr - Discussions - The New DPSWarr, Triumphs and Tribulations . There's a great deal of information about the model that's already been discussed, and may be able to answer some questions you may have about how something in the model works. I'm not meaning to draw discussion away from this (EJ) thread, but rather, pointing to some existing discussion about the DPSWarr module.


Checked that thread and didn't see anything regarding my question, so I'll ask here. I'm new to RAWR, but I'm loving the smooth interface and capabilities. I have 2 questions/concerns.

1. When I load my gear from the armory (which works great btw) the stats summary shows me as having 733 ArP (52.37%) when in reality I have 625 (44.66%). What's the deal? This is the fury version, so no Arms stance or T9 2 piece.

2. When optimizing gear how do I opt out of certain gear slots for consideration? Trying to modify the conditions a weapon is available in the optimizer only gives me the options of changing enchants. I couldn't find this in the help or figure it out easily. Basically I want to ignore my weapons because I want to optimize the gear I already have and as it is the optimizer will conjure up a 2nd for my off-hand. I only have one for my main hand.

Thanks for any help!

#38 Jothay

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Posted 25 September 2009 - 11:30 PM

Checked that thread and didn't see anything regarding my question, so I'll ask here. I'm new to RAWR, but I'm loving the smooth interface and capabilities. I have 2 questions/concerns.

1. When I load my gear from the armory (which works great btw) the stats summary shows me as having 733 ArP (52.37%) when in reality I have 625 (44.66%). What's the deal? This is the fury version, so no Arms stance or T9 2 piece.

2. When optimizing gear how do I opt out of certain gear slots for consideration? Trying to modify the conditions a weapon is available in the optimizer only gives me the options of changing enchants. I couldn't find this in the help or figure it out easily. Basically I want to ignore my weapons because I want to optimize the gear I already have and as it is the optimizer will conjure up a 2nd for my off-hand. I only have one for my main hand.

Thanks for any help!


Your issues are posted all over the Discussions and Closed Issues:
1. Stats on the Pane include all procs averaged out
2. You need to mark the weapon as unique so that the optimizer will only use one.
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#39 ebs2002

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 04:01 AM

I think I've fixed the issues with hit occasionally appearing to be more valuable than it actually is. If anybody is able to compile the pre-release code, check it out and see if you can still reproduce the error.

The problem was that the rage slip/avoidance streak calculations was affecting Bloodsurge more than it should have been, which would make hit seem more valuable under some circumstances. As of right now, I haven't been able to duplicate the "[stat] jumps up to strength's value when I toggle [some buffs]". If you can, please open an issue on the Rawr website, or let me know here. Remember to include your character file :)

I've also fixed the polearm logic for Fury.

The incoming damage/rage feature is something I'd like to add, if for no other reason than to have parity with Landsoul's sheet. I'm hoping to stomp out a few more bugs before I complicate the calculations a little more (esp. considering Fury still doesn't use all of the current mods that Jothay's added recently and he's been bugging me about them).

Next up for me, however, are:
1) Improving Flurry calculations
2) Fixing the ArP calculations for procs so we correctly model the exponential increase of ArP (we have the caps included, but we aren't considering that going from 90-100% is better than going from 50-60%)
3) More intelligent data being displayed in the Stats pane -- Unbuffed, AverageProcs (what the calcs will use), and Maximum

#40 Flab

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 12:45 AM

I can't help but feel that Rawr is over-valuing haste.

It was telling me that Shard of the Crystal Heart was worth 50+ DPS over both my current trinks, Mirror of Truth and Pyrite Infuser. (it valued those two equally)

I was curious, so I picked up the Shard, but after testing it on dummies, and in an OS run, it seemed to pull significantly less DPS than either Mirror or Infuser.

Has anyone else noticed this, or would anyone else like to weigh in on it?

Another thing I was curious about was the engineering haste tinker for gloves. Rawr puts it head and shoulders above any other enchant. I've tested this too, but my tests here seemed to confirm Rawr's projection.

I'm look'n forward to some input from the experts.

Many thanks for this fine program!




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