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What does your guild bank gold get used for?


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#81 Praetorian

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 11:54 PM

This is true. Though again, t3-geared people without consumables < t2-geared with consumables, as you've noted. I'm sure a fully-buffed raid in full t3 could down Patchwerk in 5min, but that's fully buffed.

So yes, you can certainly reduce your usage them to some extent, but even on pure farm once we outgear the zone, I think they'll be necessary, simply because they give far more of a power boost than a whole new tier of gear does.

#82 Cloudgatherer

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 11:57 PM

Brief list of potential guild resources off of top of my head...
MC: Cores/BoE Epics/Essences/Dark Iron/Ingots?
ZG: Bijous/Coins/Dolls/Bloodvine/Souldarite
BWL: Elementium Ore, maybe?
AQ20/40: Idols/Scarabs (no market for these IMO), Large/Small Obsidian shards/items, Skillbooks (aq20)
Naxx: Various "Scraps", Frozen runes (no market for these IMO)

BWL and Naxx seem to be lacking with "stuff a raid can sell." BWL nets a considerable amount of gold per clear though, can't speak to Naxx (doubting frozen runes would be much of a commodity). There certainly seems to be opportunities to sell items from raid instances, thus allowing a guild to pay for a wide variety of things. How good those opportunities are is up to debate.

Perhaps this is the intention, for Naxx to be the big money sink. In a way it makes some sense, the greatest rewards in the game have the greatest cost and the guilds who have managed their raids successfully over several instances will be poised to handle the "cost" of learning the instance with the consumables necessary to defeat the encounters. Maybe this is the instance where Blizzard said "We know you are walking in with the gear, we know you have access to these consumables, you need to push to full potential to get the job done." Whether or not we agree/disagree with that philosophy, much of what is being commented on seems to be verifying it.

I do wonder though, all instances seem to go to easy mode once the raid has sufficient gear from the instance itself (ie, running BWL in a raid with most of it in T2 or equivalent). Will the same become true of Naxx as well, or will Naxx be a perpetual money sink (well, least till expansion)?

#83 Irish Taxi Driver

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 01:18 AM

I don't even know if my guildbank HAS gold. We're required to farm and bring our flasks every night.

Umm, what?

Anyway, in a previous guild that raided 5 nights of the week for 5 hours each night, i found it a major challenge farming self-consumables, as well as flask mats for the tanks. That's probably 15 hours a week in AQ40, incurring probably about 10g/hour between pots and repairs, while making maybe 3g/hr. BWL was generally a gain of about 15 gold over the course of the night. That doesn't do much to offset the other 105 gold that I needed to make up to stay even, nor does it offset the 30-40g worth of flask mats that we were encouraged to send to the guildbank every week for no compensation.

For anyone that goes to school or has a job, that amount of time-consumption really isn't very sustainable.

I farm stonescale eels, others farm gromsblood and black lotus, and we mass on someone and make the flasks.

Our guildbank doesn't provide repair costs, repairbots, or anything. I'm really trying to think of what our guildbank does other than hold elementium and stuff.
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#84 Kytrarewn

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 02:25 AM

Tank w/ Full Naxx Gear +AQ gear for naxx pieces that I don't particularly like:
http://ctprofiles.net/818412

So we have 66.42% damage reduction, plus a lot more avoidance. 7700 unbuffed health as tauren.

29900 * 0.3358 = 10040.2

10040.42 * 0.9 = 9036.378

Tank w/ raid buffs (no consumables) has 9002 health.

MOTW might be enough to make up the difference in health/armor, but it'd still be very close, and the bonus of +160 healing on the heals following the HS probably isn't enough to make up for the tank having only 100-150 extra health after a particularly high Hateful Strike.

Power WITH consumables has been greatly increased. Power without them? Also, but quite enough.
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#85 Umph

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 02:43 AM

I don't think it'd hurt much if raid instances like Naxx had raid-sized herb / mining nodes (drop 10-15 gromsblood each, for example), or have the trash drop consumable ingredients instead of gray vendor items.

The herbs idea is great, this needs more love and attention. Hell, even if they dropped 5-8 it would still help a bunch to offset the cost of everything.

#86 Savos

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 04:55 AM

Tank w/ Full Naxx Gear +AQ gear for naxx pieces that I don't particularly like:
http://ctprofiles.net/818412

So we have 66.42% damage reduction, plus a lot more avoidance. 7700 unbuffed health as tauren.

29900 * 0.3358 = 10040.2

10040.42 * 0.9 = 9036.378

Tank w/ raid buffs (no consumables) has 9002 health.

MOTW might be enough to make up the difference in health/armor, but it'd still be very close, and the bonus of +160 healing on the heals following the HS probably isn't enough to make up for the tank having only 100-150 extra health after a particularly high Hateful Strike.

Power WITH consumables has been greatly increased. Power without them? Also, but quite enough.

Can do a bit better, switch in a Master Dragon Slayer Medallion and a 15 agility enchant on the sword. Perhaps even use a Heavy Dark Iron ring in place of the Norzdomo ring if you can live with -40(41 for Tauren?) health, or perhaps an Archimtiros and gain 40 health.

Could see that being doable.

Cheat Death could be the one thing that makes Patchwerk significantly easier if you get a few tanks 8/9. That is a ton of free healing and it will be on 100%.

Does your 9002 figure include a standard food buff (Monster Omelette/Tender Wolf Steak) or Chimerok Chops? Should always have at least those, and perhaps a cheap potion that gives +120 max life that I forget the name of at the moment.

#87 modhelm

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 05:22 AM

This discussion caught my eye because I had been theorycrafting this morning to determine if my current gear was good enough to heal offtanks for patchwerk. (long story short, I'm short about 100 +heal)

I think the consumable tax on healers definately goes down. Going from the ~700 +heal that's necessary for me to make it 7 minutes to about the 1200 +heal I expect once all of naxx is on farm lets me go from using Gheal2, to Heal4. Add the increased spirit to the innervate and the approxiamately 60 mana/5 from better gear (please don't be nerfed, Warmth of Forgiveness!), and.... well in theory one could go for 6 minutes with just innervate. (oh and blessing of wisdom)

There's plenty of assumptions there, though. The tanks taking the same amount of damage, for instance, which I suppose still depends on stoneshields.

#88 Itchyfingers

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 05:47 AM

I'm not sure why Blizzard didn't continue with this system in BWL/AQ/Naxx. It appears they continually want raiders to incur more and more costs to force them to farm more and more. (The lack of BOE epics as well as more consumable use / exponential repair costs)

This is something I'd been meaning to make a thread of its own about. At the risk of coming across like a whining pussy who clearly isn't hardcore enough for real raiding, I can't help but question whether dependence on consumables and such has gone too far, to the detriment of the "fun" of the raiding game. Repair costs I can handle. But when you have fights that are tuned a bit above the level of gear of an unbuffed raid group entering the zone, consumables are pretty much required in order to even learn the fight. Try learning Gothik without using any DPS consumables at all: You won't get very far, because you won't be able to keep up with the spawns (on dead side especially) and won't be able to tell for sure if your strat is flawed, or if the strat is good but you're just lacking the DPS to execute it.

Spending 3 hours wiping and coming away without a kill can be frustrating. Spending 3 hours, using mongoose and arcane elixirs and giants and stoneshields on every attempt, and coming away without a kill, is depressing. Because it's not just the 3 hours -- it's the additional hours you'll need to restock, whether by farming gold or farming herbs, without anything to show for it.

It's part of the reason I clearly have abandoned any pretense of maintaining a stable guild bank, and am instead burning through what we have to learn Naxx with the hopes of replenishing it after Naxx is cleared and as the expansion approaches. Doing otherwise would be brutal on morale.

Thats why I'm glad they changed the way pot timers work in the last patch. Some ppl I know didnt like it, but I think that the less pots u can use during any given time, means that there are less u have to use to beat the encounter. Last thing I want is what we had in Diablo, where u used pots non stop. I think they need to do similar stuff with consumable buffs, reduce the effect or number u can use. Then u can balance the fights around that. I'm not sure Blizz will do any major changes at this stage, but maybe atleast in the expansion they will look at it.

#89 Crimsonjade

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 06:18 AM

This discussion caught my eye because I had been theorycrafting this morning to determine if my current gear was good enough to heal offtanks for patchwerk. (long story short, I'm short about 100 +heal)

You mean with consumables right?

#90 Oneeye

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 06:43 AM

We use WAY too many consumables per first kill. Way too many flasks. Then again our guild bank has ~60k, and two officers have 30k each... So we arnt that poor.

#91 Kharzaljim

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 07:06 AM

As a note here, if Blizzard's goal is to remove money from the economy (which it seems to be,) then there's a much better way they can do that with raiders.

Take an example, say that Bosses no longer drop any gold whatsoever. Replace that gold with an equivalent amount of herbs/consumables at average AH value. Hell, make it equivalent market value +25%. Two things happen.

One, money stops going into the economy through raiders.
Two, due to AH 5% cut, money is actually drained from the economy.


There's one assumption i know i'm making here, and that's that herbs/consumed items would actually enter the economy/casual player base, and not just get eaten up by the raid force. There may be others that i'm making, if anyone can see them i'd be glad to hear it.

Net effect is money leaves the economy, dispersed over a very large playerbase instead of being so direct. One downside is this MAY have the effect of placing almost all the wealth into raider's pockets. Against that particular aspect, to my knowledge raiders have the highest operating costs.
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#92 Itchyfingers

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 07:19 AM

Why would Blizz want to remove money from the economy??

#93 Drauk

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 07:30 AM

Why would Blizz want to remove money from the economy??

Because more money in economy means inflation, and that is kinda bad ?

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#94 Itchyfingers

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 08:01 AM

mmm, never mind me. I thought he meant Blizz wanted to remove money from the game, as in stop using it. Funneling money out of the economy is needed of course.

#95 Guest_aarkh_*

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 12:18 PM

Before the release of Naxx, there was one guy in our guild who had bought gold and was made fun of regularly because of it. Right now, probably 1/4 of the guild has and more are considering to do so all the time. That really just says it all. When the endgame either straight out requires you to have no job or buy gold, something is wrong. And we have always been very consumable heavy when raiding, ever since BWL we've really not hesitated with spamming consumables.

Personally, I partly love consumables, I love the power boost they give me as a healer, because you can heal so much more, and something like just spamming it away at Twin Emps is the best healing experience the game has to offer. But the reasonable part of me agrees that the power of consumables is way out of whack. Instead of giving more power than a full new tier of gear, being fully buffed should be more like 33% of the power of a new gear tier, which still would give an advantage but not as ridiculous as they do now.

I could see this coming though, and this is why we chose to refund t3 materials from the guild bank. Even if alone t3 mats would be trivial to get, added to repair costs and consumables, the load is simply too much.

#96 Gozul

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 12:29 PM

Since our server's AH is empty ( filtering "grom" and getting no result, that kind of thing ), we sell MC stuff for flask mats and flask mats only. 3 or 4 titans for a piece of T1 or a weapon. Same for onyxia. We sell MC BoE and AQ books ( for quite a large amount since we're one of the few guilds that have these instances on bored farm status ). One MC run is worth 20 flasks which is enough for us right now.

Mandatory flask is something i don't want to see in TBC. It became a lousy gimmick.

#97 Calantus

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 02:57 PM

Personally I'd like to see mana/health potions, runes, and tubers go on something like a 10 minute timer. Those kind of consumables should really be an "oh shit" backup when you really need it, not something you incorporate into your strategy. That or they need to put in something like the NPC they had in Naxx during test and revamp it for live. Basically sell cheap, BoP, and "only usable in X instance" consumables on an NPC that you can't access without either the right rep, progression (like the armament/regalia NPCs in AQ40), or some kind of attunement. Diablo had spammable pots, but it didn't matter because you could just buy them fairly cheaply anyway so it was always about using what you had on you wisely, not being able to get your hands on a supply.

Then they need to greatly reduce stacking like they did with food/drink buffs. Getting elixirs and firewaters and giant growth potions and whatever else all stacking is a bit rediculous. I'd think flask/food/drink/elixir/potion in addition to weapon buffs is already stretching it, but I don't think you could make it any less with how consumables are right now. Making them last longer and through death wouldn't hurt either, but they seem to be moving away from that with the zanza change.

#98 McInaction

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 03:04 PM

We had a shaman in our guild who never grinded, all he did was play the AH and while waiting for instance groups in org. Guy was a great healer and was there for us in early MC many months ago. He got the first lionheart plans on the server.. and stronghold guantlets.

He made a kill, not to mention half the things on the AH was from one of his many alts. The ammassed a huge cache of just about everything, and when it came to craft our first thunderfury, even tho the guy no longer raided with us, he dug up all the arcanite needed in about 10 minutes from his alt.

And when we transfered, and he had to spread alot of money out within the guild so he could do so, the horde economy nearly died. AH went to hell.



But we still herb our own pots, make our own flasks farm our own arcanite for t3 and cure our own hides with the many transmute bots in the guild. Everyone is responsible for their own consumables, and it is noted by the officers. (Which counts for something when they decide the loot.)

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