Jump to content


Photo

Holy Specialization vs Spell Warding in Naxxramas


  • Please log in to reply
43 replies to this topic

#21 Eleni

Eleni

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 02 August 2006 - 11:49 PM

Assumptions:
-We want Spiritual Guidance as with ~400 raidbuffed spirit the benefit for Flash Heal and Heal(Rank 2) is bigger from SG than from SH
-We want Spiritual Healing as well since +healing is always good and it equals 256 +heal for Greater Heal(Rank 5)
-We want Mental Agility since, well since its good

That leaves us with 20 (21) points in Disc and 31 (30) in Holy.
Holy talents I consider mandatory for a pure raid build:
-Healing Focus 2/2 (you wont heal against a NX trash mob hitting you, but there is lots of AoE around)
-Improved Renew 3/3 (an already manaefficient set-and-forget spell gets even better, plus you need 5 points in tier 1)
-Divine Fury 5/5 (huge hp/s increase)
-Improved Healing 3/3 (makes you last much longer and increases hp/m greatly)
-Spiritual Guidance 5/5 (with good gear and most of all for Heal(Rank 2) users)
-Spiritual Healing 5/5 (gear independant flat increase especially for Greater Heal)

So we use 23 of our 30/31 points in holy on the key talents which leaves us with 8 points to freely distribute with the dictate of 20/21 points in the first 4 tiers.
There are some talents to safely ignore, namely:
-Holy Nova (I have yet to find any raid encounter where it is superior to my other arsenal, mainly due to the horrible cost)
-Blessed Recovery (Anything that melee-crits you in a raid instance has most likely one-shotted you. In PvP I get a hit-crit for 200 and BR starts ticking for 16. I get an ambush crit for 1800 and BR still ticks for 16 meh)
-Holy Reach (Our offensive spells are irrelevant, Holy Nova useless, and with a little positioning skill people shouldnt be outside of your PoH range)
-Searing Light (I am no nuker I am no nuker I am no nuker)

This leaves us with 7/8 talent points depending of if we want Divine Spirit from Disc to put into:
-Holy Specialization (~50% increase of our crit rate, 5% crit mean 2,5% more healing reduced by overheal)
-Spell Warding (Benefit in AoE-heavy encounters, Horde Priests benefit more from it due to lack of BoK)
-Inspiration (Great for learning encounters espcecially when your tanks are undergeared. Better for Alliance imho since we dont have Shamans with Ancestral Healing)

Logical combinations are either Holy Spec + Inspiration or Holy Spec + Spell Warding since I consider Inspiration without Holy Spec wasted talent points as our crit rate in set gear is rather low.
With me being an alliance priest, I would put 4/5 points in Holy spec and 3 in Inspiration since BoK allows me to get over the magical 5k hp buffed. If I was Horde, I would probably consider Spell Warding neccessary and put 5 points in it and the other 2/3 points in Holy Spec since Inspiration is pretty bad without it and you need to have 20 points in the lower 4 tiers anyway to get to tier 5.

Under the assumption that you want Divine Spirit that leads you to:

Alliance: http://www.wowhead.c...RhsV0oZfLxcc0Vx

Horde: http://www.wowhead.c...RhsV0oZfix0c0Vx

#22 panny

panny

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 1,105 posts

Posted 03 August 2006 - 03:48 AM

That was a pretty good analysis of the Holy Tree, thanks.

However, I think Holy Nova is worth the one point. It may not be that useful for raiding, but I always like the option. It's decent for PvP (destealth and flag interrupts). Also, on my last Nef kill, I had computer problems and got disconnected. When I came back (with full mana), Nef was at 23%. With all the mages and locks down, and not many others up, I spent about 3/4ths of my mana bar on the threatless Holy Nova and managed to get them down. It's quite possible that one point in Holy Nova saved the raid.

#23 Khalikryst

Khalikryst

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 108 posts

Posted 03 August 2006 - 04:19 PM

Just as a frivolous aside, does anyone else steal a point from Divine Fury to spend elsewhere? Maybe it's because I'm on a Battlegroup 3 server but has anyone actually noticed a difference between having 4/5 versus 5/5?

#24 silya

silya

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 205 posts

Posted 06 August 2006 - 10:32 PM

With 1.12 lifetap changes, lightwell is suddenly very good again. It's warlock candy.

#25 Damien

Damien

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 56 posts

Posted 06 August 2006 - 10:35 PM

I dunno about that. Warlocks will still lifetap to the same level of health, and they'll still lifetap at the same frequency. They'll just spend fewer 1.5second cooldowns doing it.

#26 silya

silya

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 205 posts

Posted 06 August 2006 - 11:12 PM

I dunno about that. Warlocks will still lifetap to the same level of health, and they'll still lifetap at the same frequency. They'll just spend fewer 1.5second cooldowns doing it.

I lost you. Warlocks will increase dps to themselves, which puts greater strain on the healers in tough fights, which means efficient means of healing that puts the burden of interraction on the warlock instead of a priest become more valuable.

#27 Incoherence

Incoherence

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 442 posts

Posted 06 August 2006 - 11:25 PM

I dunno about that. Warlocks will still lifetap to the same level of health, and they'll still lifetap at the same frequency. They'll just spend fewer 1.5second cooldowns doing it.

I lost you. Warlocks will increase dps to themselves, which puts greater strain on the healers in tough fights, which means efficient means of healing that puts the burden of interraction on the warlock instead of a priest become more valuable.

Lightwell is still on a 10 minute timer, heals for the equivalent of about 5 Heavy Runecloth Bandages, and requires a fight with little to no environmental damage. I fail to see how this makes a difference.

#28 Damien

Damien

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 56 posts

Posted 07 August 2006 - 06:21 AM

I dunno about that. Warlocks will still lifetap to the same level of health, and they'll still lifetap at the same frequency. They'll just spend fewer 1.5second cooldowns doing it.

I lost you. Warlocks will increase dps to themselves, which puts greater strain on the healers in tough fights, which means efficient means of healing that puts the burden of interraction on the warlock instead of a priest become more valuable.

I don't see why warlocks would be lifetapping any more than previously. The only change is that they will only have to press the lifetap button once to get their desired amount of mana instead of pressing it twice.

#29 silya

silya

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 205 posts

Posted 07 August 2006 - 06:36 AM

I don't see why warlocks would be lifetapping any more than previously. The only change is that they will only have to press the lifetap button once to get their desired amount of mana instead of pressing it twice.

Let me give you a deliberately exaggerated example. Say a fight lasts 12 minutes, and the warlock has 5000 mana. Say a warlock would run his mana bar dry in 30 seconds. Then he would need to lifetap, let's say, 10 times back to full. That's 15 seconds. So throughout the fight he spent about 8 minutes nuking and 4 minutes using lifetap. He would refill his mana bar 16 times.

Now consider the same warlock with the new lifetap. He would need to lifetap, say, 5 times back to full. So that's 7.5 seconds. That means out of 12 minutes the warlock now spends 9.6 minutes nuking and 2.4 minutes using lifetap. He would refill his mana bar about 19 times.

The warlock would be spending less time lifetapping with 1.12. That's the whole point of making lifetap scale. However, the 1.12 warlock did more sustained damage to himself (19 vs 16 mana refills), and more burst damage to himself (instead of 420 or 500 hp chunks, he's taking off maybe close to 1k of his hp per tap).

This makes the 1.12 warlock a bigger strain on his healers. This is why things like bandages or things that approximate bandages (like lightwell) become more useful than they were previously. Though I must say the 10 minute cooldown is lame. On the other hand, the only useful 21 pointer you would sacrifice lightwell for would be divine spirit, and you only need 1 priest with it.

#30 Damien

Damien

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 56 posts

Posted 07 August 2006 - 07:13 AM

I see your point, but even in that 12 minute fight the extra healing needed is trivial.

Edit: I'd also rather make all the warlocks a Major Troll's Blood potion for every fight than spec into Lightwell :P

#31 silya

silya

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 205 posts

Posted 07 August 2006 - 07:20 AM

I see your point, but even in that 12 minute fight the extra healing needed is trivial.

Edit: I'd also rather make all the warlocks a Major Troll's Blood potion for every fight than spec into Lightwell :P

What would you rather spec into than lightwell? Is divine spirit really so good that every priest in the raid would need it?

#32 Damien

Damien

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 56 posts

Posted 07 August 2006 - 07:25 AM

I don't like doing 5mans, 20mans, solo farming, or even PVP without Divine Spirit.

Also, Spirit of Redemption is required for Lightwell, so there's another point down the crapper.

#33 Incoherence

Incoherence

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 442 posts

Posted 07 August 2006 - 08:38 AM

What would you rather spec into than lightwell? Is divine spirit really so good that every priest in the raid would need it?

It's not so much that DS is amazing (although I'm a great fan of it, and have been since pre-1.10 where I was also specced for Divine Spirit), but that Lightwell is really that terrible that me having 10 damage/healing all the time is more useful than a glorified bandage dispenser for 2 points. (Yes, SoR is that bad. How many times does a priest die in such a position that their being able to heal for another ~7 seconds will save a raid, and that they can actually heal anyone useful from the place they died?)

#34 silya

silya

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 205 posts

Posted 07 August 2006 - 08:52 AM

What would you rather spec into than lightwell? Is divine spirit really so good that every priest in the raid would need it?

It's not so much that DS is amazing (although I'm a great fan of it, and have been since pre-1.10 where I was also specced for Divine Spirit), but that Lightwell is really that terrible that me having 10 damage/healing all the time is more useful than a glorified bandage dispenser for 2 points. (Yes, SoR is that bad. How many times does a priest die in such a position that their being able to heal for another ~7 seconds will save a raid, and that they can actually heal anyone useful from the place they died?)

Hmm, 10 minutes seems excessive for what is in the best case an 8000 point finicky heal. I would make its cooldown 3 minutes, to match its duration. I would also make the duration of SoR scale with priest's spirit stat (continuing the trend Blizzard set of priests wanting to buff the spirit stat). There's no argument, SoR is garbage in its current form. I guess the problem with lightwell is that it doesn't scale, and current raid-geared priests have so much +healing and +mp/5 that extra 8000 healing every 10 minutes is a drop in the bucket.

Maybe the 31 point holy talent for priests should be 'conjure bandage' :)

#35 Renew

Renew

    Team Healbot

  • Members
  • 528 posts

Posted 07 August 2006 - 10:42 AM

Assumptions:
-We want Spiritual Guidance as with ~400 raidbuffed spirit the benefit for Flash Heal and Heal(Rank 2) is bigger from SG than from SH
-We want Spiritual Healing as well since +healing is always good and it equals 256 +heal for Greater Heal(Rank 5)
-We want Mental Agility since, well since its good

...

Alliance: http://www.wowhead.c...RhsV0oZfLxcc0Vx

Horde: http://www.wowhead.c...RhsV0oZfix0c0Vx

Uh, 256+heal on a GHeal rank that I use VERY rarely? I think I only rank 5 on a Patchwerk MT who got hit with a crit to get him back up above a certain % I like sitting my tanks at. People shouldn't want SH at all period.

I would pick up Imp Prayer, max out Holy Spec, maybe grab Nova and or drop some more points in Disc. Until I pick up some Tier 3 with good stats + good spi I am just a PI bitch.
Confidence is not Arrogance.

#36 Sinndir

Sinndir

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 865 posts

Posted 07 August 2006 - 02:14 PM

Assuming you go heavy into the Holy tree with a spec like this (and yes I am 14/37 just a bit different than this): http://www.wowhead.c...=dxG0sZfLxccMVx

Personally the most beneficial places to put the remaining talent points would either be straight up 5 in Spell Warding. However, if I did that I would likely be inclined to drop 2 points in holy spec for SoR (bleh), and Lightwell. Though I only have limited experience in Naxx (9 bosses), I have found that Lightwell is somewhat usefull in each fight and our Warlocks LOVE it for Patchwerk. I generally use Lightwell as a buff and cast a second before the pull drink back the 3-400 mana and then if it is a long fight maybe I can use it again.

I haven't been able to justify going back to more than 14 points into Disc, and if I plan on going more into Disc it would be like Renew said... PI bitching it and I don't really feel like dropping that many healing talents for PI, especially with Meditation now so much more easily obtained.

Quick look at Mental Strength and Mental Agility. Assume 7500 buffed mana pool, then you are only getting 8250 mana. That bonus 750 mana, in my opinion, isn't worth the lost of 10+ points in the holy tree. As well mental agility saving you 41 mana on renew and 50 mana on shields also isn't worth it in my opinion. HoTs, while I do love them, seem to be taking a turn to being less useful. Also for the fact that Heal rank 2 is half the mana (without improved healing) and heals for enough to patch up your raid.

Don't get me wrong I don't in anyway think that Lightwell and SOR (moreso) are great talents. I just find they are useful and better spent than a couple more points into MA or MS.

#37 Incoherence

Incoherence

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 442 posts

Posted 08 August 2006 - 05:15 AM

Maybe the 31 point holy talent for priests should be 'conjure bandage' :)

Or maybe, just maybe, they could give us a 31 point Holy talent that doesn't suck. Is that so much to ask? Priest Holy tree and Hunter Survival tree both got their 31 point talents changed in their respective reviews, and they both still suck.

#38 silya

silya

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 205 posts

Posted 08 August 2006 - 07:01 AM

Maybe the 31 point holy talent for priests should be 'conjure bandage' :)

Or maybe, just maybe, they could give us a 31 point Holy talent that doesn't suck. Is that so much to ask? Priest Holy tree and Hunter Survival tree both got their 31 point talents changed in their respective reviews, and they both still suck.

I was sort of joking about conjuring bandages, but that ability is as powerful and gamechanging as conjured water. There is a psychological barrier a lot of people have that prevents them from liberally using any resource that's not free -- and this talent would remove this barrier.

At least you don't have improved spellstone as a 31 point talent.

#39 Shalas

Shalas

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 2,351 posts

Posted 08 August 2006 - 07:29 AM

Actually, Conjure Bandage would be a pretty nice 31-point talent as long as you weren't the bandage bitch in your guild.

#40 silya

silya

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 205 posts

Posted 14 August 2006 - 11:16 PM

Priest upper tier talents aren't very good. So here's a somewhat silly 14/18/19 build: http://www.wowhead.c...hsZfotccZVGrzbb.

The idea is that you get most raid healer functionality from 14 in disc and 18 in holy, which leaves you with 19 points to spend on shadow. While this isn't enough to become a full fledged shadow priest, it IS enough to pick up useful talents like reducing cooldowns on fear and fade, along with the ability to spam rank 1 mind flay to get warlocks 15% to shadow damage. Essentially this build is almost as good as a dedicated holy/disc priest, while helping warlocks squeeze 15% more damage just as a shadow priest would.

(This build is my answer to Praetorean's lament that horde guilds cannot really field a dedicated shadow priest. Perhaps they don't need to!)




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users