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twin emps question


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#1 Loam

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 04:01 PM

Hi everyone. A couple guildies of mine referred me to this forum awhile ago; you guys look to have a nice collection of intelligent posters here. I hope you don't mind if I ask a few questions about the twin emperors. I used the search function but couldn't find anything related to my rant, so I apologize if this has already been covered, but anyways, here it is.

My raid has downed the twin emps several times before, however recently we've been having problems with the tanks losing aggro to various people in the raid. Last week sometime below 30% Vek'nilash made a port to the right side of the room and immediately started chasing a hunter. The hunter feigned and Vek'nilash went back to the tank. One or two ports later in execute range, it happened again. Right after a port to the right side (so the same tank) he immediately started chasing another hunter. Despite this our hunters and tanks were able to act amazingly quickly and we pulled through to down them. Last night we weren't so fortunate. We didn't have hunter problems again, but this time emperor Vek'lor started dropping aggro on the tanks and going after various people towards the end of the fight. Vek'lor is rough to position and basically we were unable to salvage the attempt where this happened. We eventually gave up for the night. =\

A few times in the past we have had a problem where immediately after a port, Vek'lor would turn around and decide to go back to the tank he just left, instead of deciding to stay with the new one. Sometimes this fixes itself or our tanks do something to fix it, I don't know, they do a pretty good job no matter how many points in fury they have. Nubs. Anyways last night after this seemed to happen once, on a later port Vek'lor started chasing warlocks, which the tanks couldn't recover from. It was a bit hectic and I'm not sure we know the exact sequence of events, but the emps wound up healing before we could pull them apart again and we wiped on the enrage.

Our tanking:

First, our tanks never mess up a port, or at least not until after something like this has already happened, so they're always the ones who are/should be getting the scripted proximity aggro. Our warriors are all similarly geared. If the problem is a tank, it would be hard to narrow it down, because due to attendance issues we almost never get the same two tanks to show up two weeks in a row. Despite that the pool of tanks we do have is very competent and they've all shown that they can do the fight successfully before.

Second, we don't use warlock tanks except for setting up the initial pull only. After that the same two warriors are in charge of both emperors.

Our dps:

Our casters are all on bug duty. Mages are allowed to use two or three direct damage spells per port, and warlocks are allowed to put up one dot per port.

Hunters and rogues are most of our dps on the emps. Rogues have never taken aggro unless a tank dies, despite putting out more dps on Vek'nilash than anyone else (certain rogues, anyway) and generally never using feint or vanish.

So...yeah. Obviously next time around we may try to dps the emps without using any warlock dots, which would probably stop Vek'lor from ever chasing them, however that happened. But that doesn't explain how hunters using feign death take aggro in front of rogues who aren't using deaggros (unless feign has something to do with it in the first place), or why rarely for some reason the emps will port and then decide to run back to the previous tank. These things almost always happen late in the fight, around 30% or less (except the porting but somehow sticking to the other tank, which seems to happen at random and very infrequently), so it would seem that it has something to do with aggro built up during the course of the fight. The problem is that the mechanics of the fight are so difficult to specify with any degree of accuracy that I can't tell what exactly is at fault, the players or the encounter. If it's the players, we can do something about it and it will hopefully never be a problem again. If it's the encounter, we can do something about it, only, I don't know what the problem is or what that something would be.

So I guess my question is...what the hell is going wrong and/or what can we do to try to make the fight smoother?

#2 diospadre

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 04:18 PM

The hunter thing happened to me last week. We guessed it was a midflight arrow that screwed things up, perhaps when combined with a totem or vanity pet. Each teleport is a complete aggro wipe, so if the emp blows his arrival aggro load on something that can't normally hold aggro, an arrow can easily send the emp running after a hunter. As long as the hunters are aware of this possibility and feign when necesary, and the DPS knows that they have to hold back that round as tank has very little threat built up things will be fine.

If these situations are happening a lot, make sure that nobody has dumb pets out or totems nearby.

#3 christide

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 04:25 PM

We've had the hunter thing happen a few times. The port generates 2k of threat, so a midair aimed shot that crits will generally pull it off the tank. Not much you can do about it, just hope the hunter's feign isn't resisted.

#4 Omelet

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 04:47 PM

While the port is on a cooldown, the Emperors still have to "choose" to use the ability. I know the addon we use calls 5 seconds till a port, but the port could be 10-15 seconds after. If you stopped hunter DPS two seconds before they are able to port, you'd be losing a lot of DPS.

Although we haven't tried the twin emps. since the patch, we never had trouble with caster aggro. We do use two warlocks tanks on Vek'lor however, so one the on chance that a big fireball would have a mid-air crit, the searing pain spam can usually grab back aggro.

#5 Loam

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 04:52 PM

I was under the impression the ports were a deaggro, rather than an aggro wipe. I guess that would clear up a few things, with both the hunters and the warlocks too if they had dots or something going through the ports (though they already know they are to avoid doing so and I think in most cases do).

I'm still not sure how that would explain the emps sticking to the wrong tank though. ie Vek'nilash is on tank A. Port happens and he arrives at tank B. Despite the scripted aggro gain and hunter dps and whatever else, he immediately retargets tank A, and if tank B isn't fast enough on a shield slam or sunder or whatever, he'll start running over.

I mean, maybe we're just having mass delusions or something, but I'm certain that has happened before. Maybe deep wounds? =\

Also, we're an alliance guild, so there's no totems, and our only pets out are imps I believe.

#6 Judia

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 05:19 PM

Fireballs, frostbolts aimed shots.
Any of those that are fired immediately before a port with boomerang and hit the twin immediately after a port and can pull aggro if it crits. You really dont lose alot of dps if everyone pulls out at the same time the melee do, the rogues will still pull the brunt of your dps on this fight.
To err is human

#7 Hamlet

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 05:35 PM

Hmm, we've always DPS'ed straight into the transitions (with ranged, obviously) and have never seen this. We don't have totems and I don't recall vanity pets being very popular during our raids, so maybe that helps. I'm sometimes blasting away with trinketed Frostbolts right as he ports away, and other people are often doing the same or similar.

#8 Quigon

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 08:13 PM

For those of you who want the information that say, a birdie might give.

The dummy script for the teleport is supposed to be a 2 second stun with an aggro wipe of the entire raid. It then checks for the closest targettable enemy (which used to mean totems... that was rad +10)... and gives them 2000 damage worth of hate. That number may have changed, but it matches our real world experiences well.

#9 Hamlet

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 08:20 PM

For those of you who want the information that say, a birdie might give.

The dummy script for the teleport is supposed to be a 2 second stun with an aggro wipe of the entire raid. It then checks for the closest targettable enemy (which used to mean totems... that was rad +10)... and gives them 2000 damage worth of hate. That number may have changed, but it matches our real world experiences well.

Wait, how is this different from what was already known? Just to be clear, you agree that the proximity check occurs at the beginning of the stun?

2000 seems about right. When one of our Warlocks gets Uppercut, causing a missed transition, standard policy is for all Mages to cast 1 Frostbolt (2 would really be fine) and then transfer to bugs.

Also, I can say for sure that [prox aggro bonus]*1.3 < [Curse of Doom] :rolleyes:

#10 Quigon

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 08:23 PM

Its different in whats already known cause I gave the exact value. Although maybe thats already known.

To be clear, the stun and the aggro check are completely different entities. The stun is a non script event, that can be totally hosed by lag... making it appear as if it never happened.

The aggro wipe happens immediately on teleport... the stun is supposed to also. I guess you could say that means it happens at the beginning of the stun... shrug.

#11 Hamlet

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 08:24 PM

Its different in whats already known cause I gave the exact value. Although maybe thats already known.

No, I was just wondering whether you were trying to point out something else with the detailed description.




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