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Tanking enchant discussion


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#41 Katallo

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 04:58 PM

With ICC now upon us and the second wing opening this week I've been revisiting threads regarding tanking weapon enchants for some further insight before selecting a (possibly) new enchant for my argent defender. Given that the totc gear really lacked hit, I eventually went with Accuracy - my healers weren't complaining about keeping me up so threat boost it was :)

The new ICC gear seems to be loaded with hit rating and there are some choice pieces with big chunks of expertise on them also, add in the two piece tier 10 set bonus and I think we'll be doing nicely on threat.

Now most of what I've read places Mongoose above the others purely because it's an all-rounder, reasonable up-time, armor and dodge from the agility netting us a nice increase to overall damage mitigation.

However I can't get away from the thought that Blood Draining is there when you need it, one of the things that's making paladins such a popular tank right now is their argent defender that's also there when they need it. Now I know comparing the two is probably a bad idea given that AD will always save them providing it's not on CD and it heals for far more than blood draining even at 5 stacks.

The simple fact is though, Blood Draining could save my bacon preventing the wipe - this certainly appeals to me as a tank as i'm sure it does to all.

The second thought I've had is regarding the new ICC itemisation and the dodge debuff making us look towards massive amounts of armor once again rather than avoidance (as we know avoidance scales with itself, the more you have the better it becomes and we've just lost 20%).

I'm personally looking towards items like the emblems belt, chest, crafted leggings etc with those huge armor values boosting our guaranteed mitigation.

Now forgive me if I'm wrong, as I have no maths to back this up I'm simply using common sense here - but surely having a higher armor value also helps Blood Draining do it's job even better. Namely you drop below 35% health it heals you for approx 2k (at 5 stacks) possibly saving you from the killing blow on the next hit allowing your healers those precious second to top you off or use guardian spirit to save you. However with a higher armor value it reduces the damage taken in the worst case scenario (ie a hit that's unblocked).

Please bear in mind I'm not looking at the enchants based off a "what the best overall mitigation" standpoint, I'm looking at it from a "What's going to save me ending up as a stain on the floor of ICC".

Thoughts people?

#42 hikarodesu

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 07:42 PM

I think to many people are worrying about the enchant saving them in the ohshit scenario, rather than overall. Blood Draining might help you survive an oh shit situation, but an enchant like mongoose can help you from never even getting into that ohshit scenario in the first place.

Personally I've been using bladeward, but I will probably switch to mongoose now that I have a new weapon. I personally just don't like the lack luster ammount of health that blood draining heals. A 400 every 10 seconds will not help you survive at 20k hit, and in most cases if a healer gets to you in time, they will be more than 400 health over the required survival point. Even at 2000, which is less likely, it seems a little low to make the difference of life and death. All of this is considering that you go below 35% before dying in the first place...

#43 Baldrun

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 03:38 AM

I would have to agree with Hikarodesu. I would rather enchant for overall benefit. In an "ohshit" scenario, more than just the tank factors in, such as healer capability, DPS capability, utility classes being able to pull something out of their hat, etc. I don't think a simple enchant is really going to help save the group, but rather should be put to use as an overall preventative measure.

#44 Jock

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 07:13 AM

The math in the Original Post is flawed.


You're not taking into account the internal cooldown for the Blood Draining in your math. You distorted all of your assumptions in order to make that enchant look better than the others.


If a boss is attacking for 15k (you're assumption) then it is HIGHLY unlikely for at least 1 stack of blood reserve to be up every time you drop below 35% hp. If the 10 second internal cooldown that people are talking about in this thread is correct, You're telling me you only drop below 35% hp 6 seconds a minute? There is no way. If there is, go ahead and use this enchant because you're math works. However if not, you're math is flawed. You have taken into account the uptime of Mongoose and Blade Ward, but unless you do the same for Blood Draining, any/all comparisons you make between them are null and void.

#45 Cobeathris

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 08:30 PM

The math in the Original Post is flawed.


You're not taking into account the internal cooldown for the Blood Draining in your math. You distorted all of your assumptions in order to make that enchant look better than the others.


If a boss is attacking for 15k (you're assumption) then it is HIGHLY unlikely for at least 1 stack of blood reserve to be up every time you drop below 35% hp. If the 10 second internal cooldown that people are talking about in this thread is correct, You're telling me you only drop below 35% hp 6 seconds a minute? There is no way. If there is, go ahead and use this enchant because you're math works. However if not, you're math is flawed. You have taken into account the uptime of Mongoose and Blade Ward, but unless you do the same for Blood Draining, any/all comparisons you make between them are null and void.


I'm not quiet sure how you figure. You effectively get a stack of blood reserve every 10-12 seconds. You almost always have a stack on you, and even if you are ping ponging back and forth above and below 35%, every other time you will usually have at least 1 stack up. Granted, its only going to heal you for about 400 or so, but you still get something, which is basically what the OP said.

#46 JamesVZ

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 04:03 AM

I can't remember what thread it was on, but someone asked if Blade Ward had become better at all with the recent change to proc mechanics, so I ran with it enchanted in ToGC tonight, log here: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Northrend Beasts:
6 procs total for 11.2% uptime, never stacked past 1
2 procs activated for 1733 damage total
3.3% maximum increase in avoidance
20.34% parry listed, 25% attacks parried, 4.66% parry increase over listed

Lord Jaraxxus:
10 procs total for 35.1% uptime, three 2 stacks (two activated), one 3 stack (activated).
3 procs activated for 6320 damage total
5.2% maximum increase in avoidance
20.12% parry listed, 22.41% attacks parried, 2.29% parry increase over listed

Twin Valkyr:
12 procs total for 25.8% uptime, one 3 stack (zero activated)
7 procs activated for 11,312 damage total
7.5% maximum increase in avoidance
20.12% parry listed, 21.27% attacks parried, 1.15% parry increase over listed

Anub'arak (add duty):
14 procs total for 4.4% uptime, one 2 stack (activated)
13 procs activated for 12,805 damage total
A very miniscule amount of avoidance added that I don't really want to math out right now, sorry :(.


One interesting thing about the Anub log is that it looks like it stacks off of Cleave:

[20:37:44.013] Jamesvz gains Blade Warding from Jamesvz
[20:37:44.013] Jamesvz gains Blade Warding (2) from Jamesvz

Will run more tests in ICC. It doesn't look like a bad enchant all around, but it could definitely be a bit more consistent. The damage it adds seems pretty irrelevant for any serious tanking application. From just this log, I would say this enchant could be made better by increasing the uptime and proc rate and nerfing the actual effect by a good margin. We'll see what happens in ICC, though.

EDIT: Should also mention that the avoidance increase isn't necessarily accurate since those may have been parried anyway.

EDIT2: Added my listed parry versus what was actually parried.
They got that 40 man...40 man, ooh, ooh, ooh. And all I wanna do is raid it.

#47 Skyhawk

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Posted 13 May 2010 - 05:17 PM

Still unsure of who the winner is in this debate i decided to troll a bit and parse the logs of some guilds which have killed Lich King heroic. Since the general consensus is that Blood Draining is a good EH enchant and is "there when you need it", and also given that Arthas can quite often bring a tank to less than 35% health with 1 melee hit, one would assume that Blood Draining would be a great situational enchant for such a fight. Keep in mind that the enchant has a 10 second internal cooldown and is most effective when at 5 stacks.

After browsing through the parses of 2 guilds which have killed Arthas on hard mode I was surprised to find that Blood Draining barely healed tanks at all, regardless of their role in the fight. In both of their successful encounters, the maximum amount of direct heals from the enchant was a meager 12 for an average of almost 1300. The lowest was 2, but did heal for almost 3k.

Keep in mind that the Lich King encounter is incredibly melee intensive on tanks, and each hit can be in excess of 40k (unmitigated). Also, this fight generally tends to last upwards of 18 minutes, and the fact that in such a large amount of time Blood Draining only proc'ed between 2-12 times is rather disappointing. In our most optimistic sample, the total healed by Blood Draining was 15543 over the course of 18 minutes and 31 seconds. Compare that to the uptime of Mongoose in such a fight and the damage intake it would reduce from the bonus armor it provides on each melee hit.

Is it safe to assume that Mongoose would mitigate more than 15543 damage in an 18:31 fight? If we figure conservatively that the average tank takes 2 million melee damage over the course of the fight (MT or OT) and that Mongoose has an average uptime of 25% that means that 500,000 melee damage is subject to armor mitigation provided by Mongoose. I'm not totally sure what the conversion would be for calculating what percentage of damage the extra armor Mongoose mitigates, but if we take a very low number, lets say 0.5% then Mongoose would stop 25,000 melee damage which is more than the healing provided in the best case scenario I found. In the other scenarios such armor mitigation would provide up to 5x the benefit.


Logs:

Premonition
MT: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
OT: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

vodka
MT: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
OT: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

#48 lindis

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Posted 13 May 2010 - 09:23 PM

Hmm, 25k hp spread out over 18 minutes is not a very big deal though..

It would be interesting to know if any of the Blood Draining procs actually saved the tank from dying of the following hit

Edit: Capital H, I.

#49 cbgoding

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 01:09 AM

0.5% is honestly a high estimate for how much additional damage reduction 240 armor would give, especially for warriors that stack armor. For example, if I have full raidbuffs, I sit at 40108 armor (before armor potion or ring proc), and thus 70.68% damage reduction from a level 83 attacker. 240 additional armor brings the dr to 70.8%, for an increase of 0.12%.

So using that 500,000 melee damage you cited, the damage reduced by the armor provided by mongoose is 600, assuming my level of armor. The argument for mongoose's avoidance and threat remains valid, but from an EH standpoint it's rather negligible.

EDIT: .5% of 500,000 is 2500. maybe you meant 5,000,000?

#50 Mokkhyr

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 03:52 PM

@Skyhawk:

Firstly, LK Heroic is a 15:00 to 15:30 encounter as the Beserk timer ist 15 minutes and you can zerg him a bit after he berserks. The logs show it as 18 to 19 minutes because of the roleplay part after Fury of Frostmourne is cast.
Secondly, you should be aware of the different phases of the encounter and thus different incoming damage on the tanks.
Being the OT on this encounter (log), it's like this:

Phase 1 (tanking all the adds): heavy physical damage
First transition phase (tanking Raging Spirits): medium spell and physical damage
Phase 2 (tanking the remaining Raging Spirit, afterwards tanking the Valkyrs' Life Siphon): at first medium spell and physical damage, later heavy (but steady) spell damage
Second transition phase (tanking two Raging Spirits at the same time): heavy spell and physical damage
Phase 3 (tanking the remaining Raging Spirits, afterwards crushing the Vile Spirits): heavy spell and physical damage, afterwards heavy (burst) spell damage

Thus for me, Blood Draining is a no-brainer at LK. In P1 it's all about surviving the damage spikes like a frenzyed Shambling Horror's Shockwave which hits for ~75k. The Raging Spirits can also deal some nasty burst damage casting a Shriek for ~25k instantly followed by a melee hit for ~25k. Tanking the Valkyrs means there is a steady flow of ~10k spell damage per second, combined with an Infest hitting I sometimes drop below 35%, proccing Blood Reserve (Mongoose wouldn't do anything for me here).
Later on in P3 you spend several minutes in the Frostmourne room dodging the Spirit Bombs, so the weapon enchant is irrelevant there. When crushing the Vile Spirits I rarely have a lot of Blood Reserve stacks up, but a one stack heal for ~500 is better than nothing and Mongoose again wouldn't do anything for me here.

As a conclusion, you should be careful at judging enchants by just watching at the numbers. 17k heal in a 15 minute encounter might seem low at first, but 17k heal at the right moments can decide the outcome of the fight. In addition to that, it would of course be much more than 17k if LK was a 15 minute tank and spank encounter. :)
Not saying that Blood Draining is great, but from my point of view it's the best for tanking the current heroic content.

#51 Danin

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 12:56 PM

0.5% is honestly a high estimate for how much additional damage reduction 240 armor would give, especially for warriors that stack armor. For example, if I have full raidbuffs, I sit at 40108 armor (before armor potion or ring proc), and thus 70.68% damage reduction from a level 83 attacker. 240 additional armor brings the dr to 70.8%, for an increase of 0.12%.

So using that 500,000 melee damage you cited, the damage reduced by the armor provided by mongoose is 600, assuming my level of armor. The argument for mongoose's avoidance and threat remains valid, but from an EH standpoint it's rather negligible.

EDIT: .5% of 500,000 is 2500. maybe you meant 5,000,000?


RELATIVE increase is armor mitigation. Increasing your TOTAL armor mitigation from 70.68% to 70.8% is a RELATIVE increase in current mitigation of 0.12 / 29.32 = 0.0041 = 0.41%. (i.e. you take 0.41% less damage from melee attacks with Mongoose up than you do without).

#52 Skyhawk

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 04:21 PM

@Skyhawk:

Firstly, LK Heroic is a 15:00 to 15:30 encounter as the Beserk timer ist 15 minutes and you can zerg him a bit after he berserks. The logs show it as 18 to 19 minutes because of the roleplay part after Fury of Frostmourne is cast.


Yes I did forget about the roleplay part of the encounter and that the WoL parse includes an extra couple of minutes that don't really count. Either way Blood Draining healed for less than 1% of the tank's total damage intake over the course of the fight...

Phase 1 (tanking all the adds): heavy physical damage
First transition phase (tanking Raging Spirits): medium spell and physical damage
Phase 2 (tanking the remaining Raging Spirit, afterwards tanking the Valkyrs' Life Siphon): at first medium spell and physical damage, later heavy (but steady) spell damage
Second transition phase (tanking two Raging Spirits at the same time): heavy spell and physical damage
Phase 3 (tanking the remaining Raging Spirits, afterwards crushing the Vile Spirits): heavy spell and physical damage, afterwards heavy (burst) spell damage


The bolded parts show where the Mongoose proc will help to mitigate some damage, and since there is a great deal of spell damage in most phases this is where Blood Draining has an advantage in my opinion. However, going back to the actual logs shows that it still doesn't proc enough to make a real difference over the course of the entire fight. I'd need to look through the whole thing to see if it really prevented a tank death or not, but again 15543 heals over a 15 minute fight isn't anything special.

As a conclusion, you should be careful at judging enchants by just watching at the numbers. 17k heal in a 15 minute encounter might seem low at first, but 17k heal at the right moments can decide the outcome of the fight. In addition to that, it would of course be much more than 17k if LK was a 15 minute tank and spank encounter. :)
Not saying that Blood Draining is great, but from my point of view it's the best for tanking the current heroic content.


Well I guess my point wasn't to say that Mongoose > Blood Draining, but more that Blood Draining isn't as wonderful as everyone thinks it is for this fight. Because the proc is dependent on your current HP%, and making the assumption that healers are doing their job, it actually is rare that the proc will even happen at all (which the logs show). If this is the case, then it's even more rare that when it does proc the heal will save your life or save an attempt. Another way to think of it is by looking at the Heroic Corpse Tongue Coin. Ignoring the passive avoidance part, it has the same proc requirements but is generally regarded as a less than optimal trinket because it provides a rarely-occurring proc, even though the proc itself is pretty damn good (although it may not save you the way Blood Draining could). Also, in contrast to Blood Draining, Mongoose provides some threat and avoidance benefits with a very good uptime percentage.

#53 janaka

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 12:44 PM

Another way to think of it is by looking at the Heroic Corpse Tongue Coin. Ignoring the passive avoidance part, it has the same proc requirements but is generally regarded as a less than optimal trinket because it provides a rarely-occurring proc, (...)


No. The reason the coin is a bad trinket is the dodge rating. If it had 258 Stamina (which is the same item budget) instead, it would arguably be one of the best trinkets in the game.
The proc is mediocore, because 6.5k armor is only roughly 3% damage reduction at ICC gear levels (which can be really nice in certain situations, but is in typical burst scenarios less valuable than a 5k-6.4k health buffer from other trinkets' use effects or even than a 2k heal). It's not because of the 35%-mechanic.

#54 Skyhawk

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 02:49 PM

Another way to think of it is by looking at the Heroic Corpse Tongue Coin. Ignoring the passive avoidance part, it has the same proc requirements but is generally regarded as a less than optimal trinket because it provides a rarely-occurring proc, (...)


No. The reason the coin is a bad trinket is the dodge rating. If it had 258 Stamina (which is the same item budget) instead, it would arguably be one of the best trinkets in the game.
The proc is mediocore, because 6.5k armor is only roughly 3% damage reduction at ICC gear levels (which can be really nice in certain situations, but is in typical burst scenarios less valuable than a 5k-6.4k health buffer from other trinkets' use effects or even than a 2k heal). It's not because of the 35%-mechanic.


read the bolded part.


The 35% mechanic is the thing that counts in the discussion not the dodge rating, which is why I intentionally said to ignore it in attempt to prevent the discussion from being derailed and focused on trinkets. :brickwall: Trying to make a point about how/why/when the proc happens, and compare it to Blood Draining because it has the same requirements.

#55 janaka

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 03:56 PM

I hear you. But you can't make a statement that "(it) is generally regarded as a less than optimal trinket because it provides a rarely-occurring proc" then. That's just plain wrong, the rarely-occurring proc is not the reason that this trinket is considered suboptimal.

But anyway, I did also respond to the actual topic, and I disagree with your judgement of the 35% mechanic.
Now, in the LK fight, Mongoose will definitely mitigate/avoid more damage than Blood Draining. It will likely mitigate/avoid more damage than BD will heal for. This doesn't tell much about tank death prevention.
Mongoose may or may not prevent one or more tank deaths by avoiding the killing blow. BD is very unlikely to save you from death on its own, but it helps your healers and your own cooldowns to save you. So just like Mongoose, it may or may not save your ass.

I don't believe it's possible to really calculate which enchant is 'better', unless you know every single variable of the fight. And then you wouldn't even need a weapon enchant. :)




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