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#1 Whiteknight

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 09:44 PM

The other day our guild ran RAQ for the first time in a long time, and it reminded me of something that had piqued my curiosity a while ago. Ossirian is the only mob in the game I've encountered that can be sundered backward. To be more precise, Sunder Armor only hits mobs in front of you - you get an error message if the mob is behind you. However, while kiting Ossirian between pylons, you can sunder him from behind as much as you want.

Interestingly, Shield Slam works at a full 360degree normally - which is an often overlooked property which makes the ability very useful in certain circumstances, including this fight. However Bliz clearly wants the fight to be possible for non 31-prot tanks too.

It seems Blizzard simply changed the rules for a basic ability to make this encounter work.


The second one that I'm curious about, but haven't confirmed yet is Razorgore. Way back when we were first learning the encounter we often had only 2 wars for it, so we perfected a paladin-kiting strategy for razorgore (consecrate instead of demo shout, run around just like the normal strategy). As one of the paladins doing the kiting, I noticed that any time the train caught up with me and I got hit from behind, I'd be dazed (normal game mechanic) and of course die because everything would catch up at that point. Now with a more normal balance and playing my warrior I'm again kiting mobs in razorgore, but I've noticed that even though I get hit from behind, I've never been dazed in this fight.
Is this another place where bliz has suspended the normal game rules in the interest of making an encounter more doable? Or am I just missing some reason why a warrior would be less susceptible to daze? (I didn't think it was possible to mitigate this effect).


Anyway, my purpose in posting this: have you noticed any other places where bliz has changed the rules for specific encounters? Or suspect something like that? We know bliz futzes around with hate rules a bunch, but basic game mechanic changes?

#2 goss

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 09:48 PM

I get Dazed all the time on Razorgore. I think you're just very lucky.

#3 Spartacus

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 09:50 PM

I think what you are experiencing is, in fact, a combination of a large hitbox and some server lag.

#4 Khlysti

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 09:51 PM

When using my alt warrior I have never manged to sunder Ossirian if he is behind me, and strafe kite him instead so I can run away and sunder at the same time. No idea why I have never seen a reverse sunder and you have though.

#5 Whiteknight

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 09:56 PM

I get Dazed all the time on Razorgore. I think you're just very lucky.

On your paladin? My paladin got dazed a *lot*, my warrior, never. The difference is so remarkable that it's highly unlikely to be coincidence.


And yes, the Ossirian thing might be large hitbox/lag, but our strategy from the start had always been sunder him backward - all our wars do it and have no trouble. Seems odd to me that it works so consistently for this mob only. (and my server ping is usually in the 120-200 range).

#6 goss

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 10:04 PM

I get Dazed all the time on Razorgore. I think you're just very lucky.

On your paladin? My paladin got dazed a *lot*, my warrior, never. The difference is so remarkable that it's highly unlikely to be coincidence.

Yeah, on my paladin. I'll ask our warriors if they ever get Dazed, but as far as I know, Daze is completely unavoidable with the exception of invulnerabilities. It does appear in the combat log, so you could always try to parse it out later (I think its: "Mob X performs Dazed on you" or something similar).

#7 Jaerel

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 10:06 PM

I get Dazed all the time on Razorgore. I think you're just very lucky.

On your paladin? My paladin got dazed a *lot*, my warrior, never. The difference is so remarkable that it's highly unlikely to be coincidence.


And yes, the Ossirian thing might be large hitbox/lag, but our strategy from the start had always been sunder him backward - all our wars do it and have no trouble. Seems odd to me that it works so consistently for this mob only. (and my server ping is usually in the 120-200 range).

I don't have a source for this, but it seems like the "daze" from being hit from behind was a function of level gap (i.e. higher level mobs were more likely to proc a daze on you when attacking from behind). That could be an illusion due to the fact that you're more often running from ?? mobs than from greens/greys as you level up, but that makes me think perhaps the warriors higher defense skill in this case is reducing your chance to be dazed.

Purely guessing there though.

#8 Hamlet

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 10:15 PM

Our first Razorgore kill was done with BoF on the kiting Warriors. That was changed pretty soon, but well-placed PW:S helps a lot.

I suppose once our server gets fixed, then Dazes will be wipes. Hmm.

#9 Brilliance

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 10:18 PM

To what our MT told me, the more +Def you have, the less of a chance you have of getting Dazed.

#10 Whiteknight

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 10:18 PM

BoF does not clear or prevent daze though...
Not sure if it used to, but it definitely doesn't anymore.

#11 Hamlet

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 10:19 PM

BoF does not clear or prevent daze though...
Not sure if it used to, but it definitely doesn't anymore.

Right, that's what I meant.

#12 Whiteknight

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 11:02 PM

To what our MT told me, the more +Def you have, the less of a chance you have of getting Dazed.

I'd like to know if this can be confirmed. My warrior has around 430def, my paladin about 314, so if there is a correllation between higher defense and lower chance of daze, that could definitely explain my observations.

Also, it would be useful to know if defense can completely eliminate daze chance, as it could be useful to know when I can put my back to a mob (typically for kiting - turning early on Anub, Ossirian, etc.)



(ps, Arawethion, I misread your post - thanks for the clarification :))

#13 Tancrid

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 11:04 PM

To what our MT told me, the more +Def you have, the less of a chance you have of getting Dazed.

I always thought +Def reduces your chance of getting dazed as well.
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#14 Morfina

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 11:08 PM

This would be fairly easy to test, as long as the sample is big enough (ie. 5k+ hits).

#15 Khlysti

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 11:40 PM

To add to the daze discussion, I frequently mine on my warrior in darkwhisper gorge, ofcourse this entails getting aggro from, and running from Hederine Slayers alot. To this end I have always done this in full tank gear (around 425 def) and cannot think of ever being dazed at all.

Yet on my priest, or when my warrior is in dps gear I do frequently get daze effects from mobs, I had never really thought about a possible cause but +def giving reduced daze chance would explain it perfectly.

Is it therefore 5% base chance to be dazed, -0.04% per point of def above 300?

#16 xarg

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 11:49 PM

The daze from +def sounds about right to me, I can only remember one night where I actually got dazed doing razorgore (and it happened about 4 times that night) other than that I basically always have my back to them and when I get hit I don't get dazed.

As for ossirian, yeah sometimes yuo can sunder when he's behind you due to his hitbox being pretty big. It's kinda like being able to melee ony when you're actually ~20 yards away, the space directly in front of you is still counted as being within the mob's hitbox so it works. Though I often end up running and having to jump, spin, hit sunder/heroic, then turn back and continue running.

#17 Zaq

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 11:50 PM

+Def changing daze would make a lot of sense with the basics of the daze mechanic. Just leveling an alt you're much more likely to get dazed by a higher level mob then one your level or lower. +Def raises your effective level and seems like a great explination to me.
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#18 Onox

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Posted 08 August 2006 - 12:37 AM

Our MT allways turns around to get ready to run when he gets the "5 seconds to loctus swarm" warning on anub, and stands with his back facing Anub. He never gets dazed, ever. He has over 440 defence.

Some people mentioned that it might be crits from behind that dazes, and that having 440 defence makes it impossible to get dazed. But i noticed later on my priest that i got dazed without getting crit, so thats not right. But i am pretty sure defence has somthing to do with it.

#19 Nelf

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Posted 08 August 2006 - 12:49 AM

Well, I think that the only affect defense would have on getting dazed would be that it increases your avoidance rate. That is the only confirmed effect that defense has, avoidance and lowering chance to be crit. It makes sense though, that if you are avoiding more hits you are less likely to be dazed.

#20 Shalas

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Posted 08 August 2006 - 01:23 AM

Daze rates definatly vary with level, though. A 60 will very, very raraly get dazed by a level 32 mob (although it will happen occasionally). It'd make perfect sense for it to based on defense rather than level.




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