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Crit depression and combat table


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#41 Kukulkan

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 05:15 PM

In case someone is intersted, Zeksie (developer of great mods like Xperl, Utopia, etc) has made a small mod to monitor in game crit rate, small graph with changing colors when approaching the caps.

Critic

Simplistic addon to show a some details of your crit chance vs crit cap. You can either show just a simple tiny text area, or a small graph for the past X number of seconds of time showing crit/cap over time.



#42 Mavanas

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 01:10 PM

Ah, I missed that. Okay, then, yes, I agree with Landsoul's summary.


Hellord's data could simply suggest there is no crit conversion for specials at all, which is different from Landsoul's #3: conversion exists, but could be overcome with 104.8% crit. Were there any recent tests of melee specials with crit rates below 100% that show any crit depression?

#43 Aldriana

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 09:15 PM

Back when we had the original crit reduction discussion I did some testing on my own which indicated that there definitely was crit reduction on strikes and it was of the same magnitude as the 4.8% observed on white attacks. I haven't saved the test data, and I don't remember all the details, so I can't post the numbers to prove it, though. Hence, retesting it might be worthwhile (the natural way being whacking the target dummy while just below 4.8% tooltip crit), but I have no expectation of us finding anything other than the fact that it's similarly reduced by 4.8%.

#44 Rallik

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 01:33 PM

I also did some brief testing with OP at 103.5% crit on the most recent PTR testing the "warrior's only have ~3% crit depression" theory. I stopped after I saw ~2-3 hits, proving it incorrect, and just assumed it was most likely the same 4.8% depression rate. Hellord's data with OP testing also shows a test with 104.33% crit and has 1 hit in 127 attacks.

#45 Allev

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 07:16 AM

Has there been any explicit testing of Heart of the Crusader/Master Poisoner/Totem of Wrath? From the tooltips, it seems like HotC/MP look like enemy debuffs as opposed to player buffs, so they might not count as simple add-to-character-sheet crit.

#46 rakescar

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 08:40 PM

I hope this isnt considered as a thread ressurection but Ive run a really quick test on the HotC subject and it seems to make no effect on the final result of the 4.8% value of crit depression.
I had no hit and no expertise during the test, but was still speced into precision, also had ~33% crit on character sheet tooltip without rampage. The dummy was debuffed with HotC during the whole test of course.

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#47 bestpike

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 05:43 PM

So that means that ToW and HotC debuffs count towards the crit cap or not? As they dont actually raise a character's crit chance, but rather the mob's chance to get crited, its not very clear. So do we have a crit cap of:

1. 71.2% plus the 3% debuff? or
2. 71.2% including the 3% debuff?

#48 Allev

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 10:24 PM

Option 2-- the buff counts like any other crit.

#49 hellord

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 07:23 PM

On the Retesting hit table thread there is a post that made me curious to retest crit cap and I'm actually experiencing a very low hit rate, much less then the expected 5%. In the first 1k hits I didn't see a single hit and I was running with 51.35% tooltip crit, 0.76% hit (25 hit rating 0/0 talents) and 3.25% expertise (9 from SoA and orc racial). I was capped by really few and as soon as I lost a buff (prolly a motw) and went to 50.53% crit I started getting few hits.

Either if I was capped by a few or uncapped by the same few, I'm pretty sure I shouldn't get 3 hits over 1261 attempts given the "minimum" would be quite higher. I'll try to make a proper test with different ratings and hitting from both the front and the back tonight and I'll try to post some results.

It may just have been a bug where miss went over crit instead of hit, but I think it deserves a bit of attention now since some spreadsheets modeled crit softcap assuming 5% base hits.
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#50 landsoul

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 11:26 PM

Not getting any hits much at all..


Were they blocks maybe? You were hitting them from the front.
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#51 hellord

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 01:57 AM

I'm hitting the target from behind with these stats

crit: 51.40% (cruelty, axe spec, 1037 rating, 789 agi, berz stance 3%)
hit: 0.76% (25 rating)
exp: 9 + 1/2 WM (Soa, orc racial) 3.25%
2x1.5s axes

So I should be left with 46.51% of the table that should be 4.8% hits and rest crits.
Actually I'm at 2400 attempts and 0 hits and 46% crits.
I'll get a bigger sample and way to a hit if even possible and I'm also logging the fight so I'll update this post later.

EDIT: I'm using this gear and specs with 40 crit food.
Had to use both arp proc trinkets for the crit so I'll clear up the log.
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#52 landsoul

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 09:43 AM

I'm not getting any hits anymore either.

2000 swings from behind

+3% hit rate
~55% crit
+0.5% expertise

24% glance + 24% miss + 6% dodge gives 46% crit room.

0 hits.

What this basically means is that this was fixed and the old mechanics were unwanted. We should probably retest all hit table assumptions again.
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#53 Melthu

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 05:43 PM

12,500 swings with 262 hit rating and 131 expertise rating, both being the highest integer values possible without reaching either assumed cap (ferals gain 10 expertise from talents). This gives a roughly 0.01% chance of a miss and 0.005% chance of a dodge. Ended with 1 miss and no dodges (ignore the 2 parries, those happened while moving my character to keep from going AFK). Pretty strong evidence that hit and glancing are still exactly 8% and 24%. Later this weekend hopefully I'll be able to test some more and get a dodge.

The second log is truncated to where I brilliantly decided to remove DC:Greatness so I could test crit reduction. My character sheet crit chance was 47.96%, hit and expertise unchanged. 43.2% actual crits observed, so 4.8% reduction looks pretty good there too.

Overall report - World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Crit reduction report - World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Edit: Added screenshots of my stats and Recount.

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#54 Melthu

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 03:00 AM

Got a dodge after another ~8500 swings at the target dummy, so 6.5% dodge chance looks unchanged as well.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

#55 Aldriana

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 03:10 AM

So, I just tested on live this evening, attacking from the front with (tooltip) 47.23 crit, 21.09 miss, 3.09 dodge, 10.59 parry, and 24 glance (for a total of 105.00%). Thus, after crit reduction, I should still be crit capped. And in 1001 swings, I saw 52 regular hits. Which would imply that the behavior has *not* changed. So, um... yeah. Something strange is happening.

#56 Melthu

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 10:03 PM

Are you looking at WMO/WOL logs or Recount? Recount doesn't separate hits from blocks, which confused Landsoul and I for a bit when we tested. Attacking from the front while crit capped gave me no hits but 4-5% blocks. Attacking from the back while crit capped gave me 0 hits (0 blocks as well, of course).

Edit: To clarify, Recount does count full blocks as a separate swing outcome, just not partial blocks. The target dummies only block 76 damage so you obviously don't see any unless you're not wearing any gear. Also should be noted that my version of Recount is very old and newer versions may recognize partial blocks.

#57 Aldriana

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 10:16 PM

I don't frankly see that it matters whether I'm getting blocks or not. The point is that I'm seeing regular hits in recount, which shouldn't be possible independent of whether they're really partial blocks or whatever else. The block issue means that you may at times see no hits when you'd expect to, but the problem here is the reverse: I'm seeing hits when (based on other people's testing) I'd normally expect not to.

#58 Melthu

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 10:26 PM

Either I wasn't clear or I'm confused. When I read hellord's post saying that this may not be an issue anymore I tested by attacking from the front, and Recount showed about 5% hits. However, when I uploaded the log to WOL and checked it I found that I actually had 0 hits and those swings that Recount labeled as hits were actually blocks. The only way to remove blocks from the hit table is to attack from the back, so as far as I'm aware this has no bearing on crit depression, right?

#59 Aldriana

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 11:18 PM

Oh, I see what you're saying - it's not a parse bug, but a "there's more crap on the hit table" issue. Upon retesting from behind, I am in fact able to push all hits off the table and get nothing but crits, misses, dodges, and glances. Which confirms that the crit cap is again 4.8% higher than we've been recently thinking.

Honestly (and I'd have to review the testing carefully to be sure) I almost wonder if this whole crit conversion discussion was always just an artifact of testing from in front and forgetting about blocks. I have a hard time believing that they changed something like this without posting about about it at all.

#60 Allev

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 07:18 AM

Honestly (and I'd have to review the testing carefully to be sure) I almost wonder if this whole crit conversion discussion was always just an artifact of testing from in front and forgetting about blocks. I have a hard time believing that they changed something like this without posting about about it at all.


From a quick glance at the OP and follow-up posts, there's no mention of blocks in the original parse, so I think that's probably the case. It just demonstrates how much we depend on our tools to be accurate, and what happens when they aren't!




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