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#1 Forcewinder

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 06:15 PM

My guild is currently trying to take down the Twin Emps and we usually get them down to 72% and then all the warriors/locks die. The healers claim that they are out of mana around 90%. Now i proposed a healing rotation but they said that since the warriors are getting hit for so much that one less healer and he could die. (We have 2 warlocks in SR gear and 2 warriors in full wrath) Any suggestions for how to solve this problem?

#2 Vykromond

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 06:18 PM

How many healers are you taking to the encounter?
What is the quality of their gear?
What consumables are they using, with how much frequency?
Who are you assigning various healers to heal?

#3 Praetorian

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 06:18 PM

Use DMs or SW Stats and find out what effective healing and overhealing look like. If your healers are going OOM after 10% then you probably have some (many) morons with like 75% overhealing. 3 healers can easily keep up a Vek'nilash tank through anything, and one healer can keep up a high-SR warlock on Vek'lor.

#4 Wibble

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 06:22 PM

Mana efficiency. You cannot heal through this fight spamming flash heal, and you cannot heal through this fight without canceling heals when required.

They should pick up some mana regen consumables and then find a slow, efficient heal to constantly spam. I personally use heal 2 almost always, propping up with a flash heal for unbalancing strike if it's required, or the warlock takes big bolts. Damage on emps can be spiky, but if everyone is constantly dishing out heals you can recover pretty fast--and things like swiftmend and NS heals just shore things up even better. If people are using efficient spells and mana potions where needed, you shouldn't need to "rotate" healers at all; the idea is that each healer can individually keep healing for the 15 mins or however long it takes you.

No better time than the present for your healing group to learn how to manage mana!

#5 TheRealJon

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 06:23 PM

There was a pretty lengthy thread about the encounter here: http://forums.elitis...pic.php?id=6590

But on top of that, healing rotations aren't the best thing for this encounter, most the time you need all your healers smart healing the MT due to burst damage. A healer dropping to regen 15 secs or so occasionally isn't going to kill you however. Check their overhealing see who is doing it and try to teach them to cancel heals when not neccessary. More than anything its an encounter for smart healing, not button mashers who will spam heals no matter the life bar of the MT.

#6 Tuco

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 06:24 PM

Maybe use flask of Titans on tanks.

#7 Forcewinder

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 06:24 PM

How many healers are you taking to the encounter?
What is the quality of their gear?
What consumables are they using, with how much frequency?
Who are you assigning various healers to heal?

1. 6 priests 4 druids 5 pallies
2. Full tier 2 or close to it
3. Not really sure on that (im a mage) but we usually have one or two with distilled wisdom and they claim to be using mana pots, and druids innervate priests.
4. They heal the lock or warrior on their side depending on who has aggro.

#8 Vykromond

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 06:28 PM

That checks out for unpreparedness, which means the error is in gameplay. TheRealJon, Wibble, and Gurgthock's suggestions are where you should go from here. It sounds like you need to have a talk (read: the beatings will continue until morale improves) with your healers.

#9 Tempestra

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 06:31 PM

We usually have a paladin keep the tanking lock alive with sparse help from the priests on that side when the lock is caught in a bug explosion or blizzard. This lets the priests take a breather for a few seconds outside the 5sr.

But yeah, using efficient heals and canceling them when necessary is huge. We still have a couple flash priests that have huge over-healing and are OOM constantly ~~ gotta train'm up! =)

#10 Snowy

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 06:42 PM

You don't need healing rotations for Emps. You do need people being mana efficient though. How are you splitting up your healers? If we have 15 healers, it goes like this for us:

6 healers on each side healing the respective tanks.
1 primary healer for the bug tank.
1 backup healer for the bug tank, heals DPS otherwise
1 healer for the DPS.

Those 6 healers on each side can go for efficiency... i.e. me as a priest I'm using heal rank 2 almost exclusively, using shield/flash for unbalancing strikes or if there's been some spike damage.

If everyone is spamming flash heal, then yeah, they're going to go OOM pretty fast. This is not the fight for it.

Edit: should probably mention we don't have a warlock tank the magic emp outside of the initial pull.

#11 Kytrarewn

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 06:44 PM

Maybe use flask of Titans on tanks.

That won't make much difference as far as Healer Mana Consumption, will it, considering that the damage DOES need to be healed eventually? Maybe it will allow for you to put one or two tank healers outside of the 5 second rule for regen purposes, mitigating spike (ie. less spammy-healy-tanky), though, which could be a good thing.

In my experience, the main place where healers lose mana is when the tank transition between the melee Emp and the caster Emp doesn't work out as well as planned. With better execution on the teleports (Warlock w/ felhunter gets the caster immediately, and mitigates a lot more of the shadow damage) you'll find yourself using a lot less mana.

But yeah, you really need to use mana regen consumables on this fight, and you really need to make sure your healers are healing efficiently. Don't get too jumpy about the spike damage, use efficient heals, and figure out how to time them such that you don't waste too much mana (And yes, I know that seems very obvious at first glance, but still).

In other words: I think it just comes down to practice. Grind it, and you'll get it eventually.
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#12 Ranalis

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 07:01 PM

My raid group recently got our first Emps kill after a fairly long learning period, and here were some of the things we did sequentially to help out:

1. Max consumables, on everyone. We've had shit luck with tank drops in BWL, so even as MT I'm still in 6/8 wrath, and my unbuffed HP is only 6650. I was 11k buffed on our kill (w/ BoK, we're alliance). We used warrior tanks only and were still able to have our casters DPS even with a warrior tanking casty with proximity aggro only.

2. Had 5 healers spamming on each tank, constant heals. Only one rotated out at a time. SPREAD OUT so they don't get blown up by bugs or blizzarded. They need to leave the blizzard, and they need to RUN out, not back up. A lot of our (numerous) 90 percent wipes occurred because healers were not dealing well with the blizzard. Give them specific spots to stand, tell them exactly where to run to get out of the blizzard, and spread them out. Once they learn to deal with the Blizzard, and avoid bugs, the fight gets to be clockwork (or did for us).

3. Had one Paladin healing healers on each side. Our pallies heal quite well, and would help keep the tank topped off and then save any healers that got caught in the blizzard. MT healers do not heal themselves, ever, in our strategy. They spam the tanks and trust the second healer to keep them up.

4. Healers need to rank down. I assume they are doing this, but you need to find the MOST efficient healing rank that keeps the MT alive. Having a big MT health pool makes this much simpler.

5. As I said, we're alliance, so we have BoK and BoW, so clearly that's easymode for a mana-intense fight ;-). Nonetheless, our healers were burning a LOT of Major Mana Pots, so you better plan on it.

Good luck.

#13 Caduceus

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 07:14 PM

While rotations are certainly not required, it's also worth mentioning that every healer should have a good idea of EXACTLY who they need to heal at all times. If every healer is in a mad rush to heal casters getting bugged/blizzarded, spot heal melee who get hit, spot heal bug group, AND keep the tanks up, you'll have your share of mana issues as well. Give out specific assignments, and get them used to trusting the other healers to do their job, so they can just worry about doing their own. Even with cancelling heals and downranking when they can, 15 healers trying to heal everyone at once will just lead to a train wreck, particularly down the road when encounters require healers to do multiple different healing jobs at once.

#14 chalon

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 08:24 PM

The way we used to set up healing for this fight, prior to Blizzard breaking the Vek'linash behavior was: both sides had a Warrior + Warlock, and we fielded a relatively balanced 16 healers. We had 4 assigned to the Warrior, and 3 assigned to the lock + 1 to their pet (they were Soul Linked). We never had mana issues, and all healers alternated between healing for 30s and not healing for 30s...additionally of course cancelling heals when it wasn't needed. Never had mana issues as a cause of death.

Now we just do 2 warriors in the corners, though.

#15 Kalmiroth

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 11:07 PM

We tried twin emps for one night and decided to wait until we got our 2nd mt geared well enough (10 weeks? of bwl clearing, 1 wrath bp 1 shoulders, raggy from start of february, 2 wrath leggings and our 2nd mt wasnt even lvl 60 when second one dropped. ) Problem in healing wasnt with veknilash it was with teh caster. veknilash dmg is spiky yes, but he hits like a baby. Gearing our other sr warlock also to test tanking with warlock, coming back for twins after anub and razu dead. :)

#16 draghkar

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 01:35 AM

3 healers can easily keep up a Vek'nilash tank through anything, and one healer can keep up a high-SR warlock on Vek'lor.

So you use 3 healers on Warrior and 1 healer on Warlock o_O

Interesting.

#17 Xard

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 02:09 AM

Use stoneshield pots to reduce the overall damage spikes on the melee emp if its a problem.

all healers need to learn to stand at max healing range from the caster emps tank because then only the tank can eat a blizzard.

-definitely- use flask of the titans on the tanks because the damage DOES need to get healed up, but with more hp to work with you don't have to do it as fast. The burst damage from the melee emp can be pretty high, and without flasks I'm not sure that you can keep the hps fast enough to cover up for all possible burst damage.

We use just two warriors btw, and though we spend a lot of mana healing for the caster emp we find it works out well because there's less to go wrong on the transition. If needed have your tanks use a lot of their tier shadow res pieces (wrath belt, gloves, might shoulders, etc) which will keep their tank stats up.

I guess if you -really- had trouble with the caster still, you could try the obsidian BP that you can craft to absorb some of the damage, but at the same time that's a lot of lost tanking stats so it might be too much.

#18 Kytrarewn

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 03:59 AM

-definitely- use flask of the titans on the tanks because the damage DOES need to get healed up, but with more hp to work with you don't have to do it as fast. The burst damage from the melee emp can be pretty high, and without flasks I'm not sure that you can keep the hps fast enough to cover up for all possible burst damage.

I think you misunderstood..., I wasn't saying that you shouldn't use flask of the titans, in fact, anyone who suggested such a thing would be a complete idiot. I'm merely saying that it wouldn't solve the issue of healer mana consumption, other than perhaps allowing SLIGHTLY more time outside the 5 second rule. That wouldn't help an "out of mana at 72%" issue.
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#19 Xard

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 04:08 AM

Well like I said, with a flask you don't have to worry about burst as much. A tank taking a 3k hit with 7k health can take another without dying, and if the hits are spaced 2s apart, then you can use slow heals to heal him up in time. If he has 4k health, then you HAVE to have his health back up before the next swing or he's going to die. Thus, you have to use faster, but less efficient heals.

Using the flask gives you more time to get those longer heals off that save a lot of mana, and thus help the healers over the course of the entire fight.

#20 Auphi

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 04:11 AM

Well like I said, with a flask you don't have to worry about burst as much. A tank taking a 3k hit with 7k health can take another without dying, and if the hits are spaced 2s apart, then you can use slow heals to heal him up in time. If he has 4k health, then you HAVE to have his health back up before the next swing or he's going to die. Thus, you have to use faster, but less efficient heals.

Using the flask gives you more time to get those longer heals off that save a lot of mana, and thus help the healers over the course of the entire fight.

I have to agree with Kytrarewn that although a Flask of Titans will ease healing slightly, Max HP doesn't appear to be the problem.
Even under the assumption that slower heals are three times as efficient, the healers would still have run OOM during the course of that fight.




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