Jump to content


Photo

Twin Emperors


  • Please log in to reply
64 replies to this topic

#21 dojke

dojke

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 141 posts

Posted 11 August 2006 - 04:54 AM

Honestly I'm not sure these suggestions make a ton of sense atm. For someone in your position, you definitely should not be listening to the people who say "you don't need a flask" or "you don't need rotations". You don't need either of them, but from where you're coming from, you definitely want to use both of them.

If you are warlock tanking, then caster emp damage is extremely minimal. If you go with a 6/4 rotation (6 on melee, 4 on caster), you have extreme overkill on the healing while still allowing 2 ppl to regen at any given time. This is quite sustainable even with a couple fhr7 spammers.

Downranking and relying on healr2 works extremely well once you're well geared. However I'm going to assume that not all your healers have 500+ heal, and until you hit that point heal r2/r4 really aren't viable options. If you try to copy the strats of guilds that have farmed emps/ct for months then you'll die miserably, becuase you won't have the efficiencies that the extremely-well-geared guilds do.

#22 Brodda Thep

Brodda Thep

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 75 posts

Posted 11 August 2006 - 05:01 AM

I think two priests and a druid or paladin for each melee tank (6 total) is ideal. Then priest and paladin for each magic tank (another 4), one for bug tanks, one for dps, and one on swing (bug or dps) or they can take over for a healer that dies.

So that is 13 healers. More than that is pretty useless. Any extra I usually assign to the melee tanks. The trick is that when the tank that the healers are assigned to is not tanking they are getting mana back. Of course the only damage that our dps takes is from uppercut. We do not have any of our mages/locks on the caster mob. They only kill bugs.

#23 Mist

Mist

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 390 posts

Posted 11 August 2006 - 05:25 AM

I think two priests and a druid or paladin for each melee tank (6 total) is ideal. Then priest and paladin for each magic tank (another 4), one for bug tanks, one for dps, and one on swing (bug or dps) or they can take over for a healer that dies.

So that is 13 healers. More than that is pretty useless. Any extra I usually assign to the melee tanks. The trick is that when the tank that the healers are assigned to is not tanking they are getting mana back. Of course the only damage that our dps takes is from uppercut. We do not have any of our mages/locks on the caster mob. They only kill bugs.

This is what we do too.

#24 Dodo

Dodo

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 53 posts

Posted 11 August 2006 - 08:02 AM

This fight is entirely possible with 10 Healers (we have done it like this; Alliance side) if everyone is on top of their game. 4 on each side and 2 in the middle are enough to heal with tanks that: a) run away from bugs, b) run out of blizzard and c) have full tier2 or better.

Scale the number of healers up on each side if your gear is not tier2 equivalent.

Note: We use the Warrior-Only tactic and consumables are: good food (nightfin soup), brilliant mana oil and mageblood. Mana Potions are there when people start to suck because they think this fight is "easy as hell". Frost Protection pots are always good for healers because it prevents dying from blizzard.

If you position correct all the time NO BLIZZARDS should happen. If people don't do it correctly, you'll get blizzards quite often and it gets more difficult. That's when you need to have the frost pots ;)

#25 Feer

Feer

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 83 posts

Posted 11 August 2006 - 11:25 AM

Using warrior tanking, we usually assign 5 healers per tank (shaman, 2-3 priests and druid or two) with rest of healers healing DPS, bug tanks and helping out with emp tanks. As far as consumables go, I usually use 2-3 combat mana pots along with Mageblood potion, with occasional Major Mana pot depending on availability of Innervates.

I think most important thing as healer is to recognize patterns in incoming damage. Melee emperor is all about burst damage, BWL geared tank doesn't take that much damage between Unbalancing Strikes which allows using big efficient heals with plenty of time spent outside 5 second rule. When using warrior tanking, around 60-70% of damage tank takes comes from caster emperor. While caster twin has very high DPS, it is very predictable and steady source of damage on tank, best healed using mana efficient lower rank heals.

It helps to coordinate in your tank healing group which kind of healing you will do. Personally, I have bit higher amount of +healing than our other healers but no full Transcedence for 8 piece bonus renew, so I mostly spam heal rank 2 during caster emperor and slow down during melee emp, concentrating on keeping renew up and shielding tank after Unbalancing Strike. Other priests in our guild prefer different approaches, some swear by 8 piece Transc and GH, while others are all about mana/5 and different ranks of Flash Heals. Along with differences in way druids and shaman heal we have always stream of smaller heals and HoTs on tank, with 1-2 healers dropping big heals during burst damage.

#26 Moogul

Moogul

    ___facing so hard right now

  • Members
  • 4,173 posts

Posted 11 August 2006 - 12:53 PM

A quick question - my guild is on Huhuran but will be working on Twin Emps soon, and as Raidleader I'm currently investigating the fight as much as possible - Can Vek'lor's shadowbolts crit? I would assume not, as to my knowledge pretty much every mob/boss ability in the game cannot crit, but I'd like to know for sure so that we can plan healing for the caster tanks (warlocks) as best as possible.
Ijago <Casual Jerks>

#27 Judia

Judia

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 300 posts

Posted 11 August 2006 - 01:07 PM

AFAIK Mob spells cannot crit, that includes melee "spells" such as MS, UBS.
To err is human

#28 Snowy

Snowy

    Mitt Romney?

  • Moderators
  • 10,236 posts

Posted 11 August 2006 - 01:07 PM

No, they cannot crit.

#29 Guest_Altima_*

Guest_Altima_*
  • Guests

Posted 11 August 2006 - 01:51 PM

Hi, my guild is on Twin Emps too. As a SR tanking warlock, I have a different problem than healing (unfortunately, my knowledge is rather limited in that field, so I'll leave it to the brighter healing minds of the guild). In order to ease up the healers' mana use on the MT while he is tanking Vek'lor, my guild has opted to have a warlock try to pull aggro from the MT right after twin teleport. I generally pull aggro onto me about 10 seconds after teleport, which saves quite a bit of mana on the healers' part from what I understand (taking 1-2k instead of full damage).

However, sometimes Vek'lor would physically run to me, melee me (2.5k-3k, not that big of a deal), and then fire off an Arcane Burst (big deal). I position myself farther than the MT from Vek'lor, but well within his Shadowbolt range.

1. Can the Arcane Burst be entirely avoided? How? Is there something I'm doing wrong in order to pull aggro from Vek'lor?
2. If it cannot be avoided, I've noticed that as Vek'lor starts to run toward me, my movement sometimes halts the Arcane Burst casting (either jumping back once or running slightly forward). What is the best way to make Vek'lor abort Arcane Burst?

Thank you for your time and wisdom. :)

~Altima

#30 Tuco

Tuco

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 181 posts

Posted 11 August 2006 - 01:55 PM

That won't make much difference as far as Healer Mana Consumption, will it, considering that the damage DOES need to be healed eventually?

The damage does need to be healed, but flasking the tanks gives healers more breathing room to cancel spells / rank down, as they don't have to worry about the tanks being very close to full health for an unbalancing strike.

#31 draghkar

draghkar

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 158 posts

Posted 11 August 2006 - 02:00 PM

I do think that aggro/dump and aggro/gain on this encounter is sometime bugged, we had once the meleer running to opposite side of room
with aggro still on old warrior even with the new tank between his legs...

#32 Darkmantle

Darkmantle

    King Hippo

  • Members
  • 516 posts

Posted 11 August 2006 - 03:20 PM

AFAIK Mob spells cannot crit, that includes melee "spells" such as MS, UBS.

Broodlord's Mortal strike could crit when we were first doing him ages ago. 1 tank took a 9.2k MS crit which he only survived because he had laststand up at the time. This may have been changed but it definately did happen once upon a time.

Vek'lor has never crited a shadowbolt on me but a 50% mitigated 25% mitigated 50% mitigated string of shadowbolts is close enough to a crit for burst damage >_<

#33 Oneiros

Oneiros

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 173 posts

Posted 11 August 2006 - 03:33 PM

Hi, my guild is on Twin Emps too. As a SR tanking warlock, I have a different problem than healing (unfortunately, my knowledge is rather limited in that field, so I'll leave it to the brighter healing minds of the guild). In order to ease up the healers' mana use on the MT while he is tanking Vek'lor, my guild has opted to have a warlock try to pull aggro from the MT right after twin teleport. I generally pull aggro onto me about 10 seconds after teleport, which saves quite a bit of mana on the healers' part from what I understand (taking 1-2k instead of full damage).

However, sometimes Vek'lor would physically run to me, melee me (2.5k-3k, not that big of a deal), and then fire off an Arcane Burst (big deal). I position myself farther than the MT from Vek'lor, but well within his Shadowbolt range.

1. Can the Arcane Burst be entirely avoided? How? Is there something I'm doing wrong in order to pull aggro from Vek'lor?
2. If it cannot be avoided, I've noticed that as Vek'lor starts to run toward me, my movement sometimes halts the Arcane Burst casting (either jumping back once or running slightly forward). What is the best way to make Vek'lor abort Arcane Burst?

Thank you for your time and wisdom. :)

~Altima

The way he behaves is really messed up since 1.11 (I think that was when it changed). When I first learned this encounter, lock tanking was great. With my new guild, learning it again, Vek'lor behaves so differently than he used to. The way he charges the target just seems to be random. The AE can only be avoided by outranging it, so I guess if he runs at you-- haul ass and get out the way. The risk you run into here is how close the two brothers get to each other.

I know you're doing lock tanking for a reason, and I do think it used to be the better way. With the new way Vek'lor behaves though, I think its best to just use warriors. With my new guild, we used warriors and locks for a couple days and seemed to be getting nowhere. Vek'lor was just doing random things, locks not pulling Vek'lor off of the warriors fast enough, etc. We switched to using warriors and killed them on like our 7th attempt. You warriors are going to take a hell of a lot of damage from Vek'lor but with decently geared healers, it shouldn't be an issue. We run with 5 healers for each warrior. With that amount of healing on one person, 2-3 people can be taking a break when Vek'nilash is on your side.

Not trying to convince you or anything, but the way Vek'lor behaves seems to be completely random. I'm the GM/Main Raid Leader for my guild, and I was hellbent on using locks and warriors when we first started. A friend suggested using warriors only, and I was amazed at how easy it became.
I believe in Harvey Dent.

#34 Tuco

Tuco

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 181 posts

Posted 11 August 2006 - 04:33 PM

I liked the idea of warlock tanking on TE, and was dissapointed when my guild went with warriors tanking. I wish Blizzard would've enforced the idea of a warlock tank even more. They could do this by removing the warrior bugs, and by reducing the amount of time before the TE would enrage, such that you HAD to have casters DPSing Vek'lor, which means you'd HAVE to have the warlock damaging the mob to hold agro.

#35 Zaq

Zaq

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 318 posts

Posted 11 August 2006 - 07:34 PM

1. Can the Arcane Burst be entirely avoided? How? Is there something I'm doing wrong in order to pull aggro from Vek'lor?

We're just learning the TE's also, and I have some gear questions I'd like advice on when I can get a ct-profile up.
However, as to the Arcane burst, if Vek'lor runs at you and you're close to max range from him already, a little strafe/backstep seems to be all that's needed to get him to stop and keep casting.
"I have nothing personally invested in my own opinions. I'm just, like, inviting you to join me on the bandwagon of my own uncertainty." -Taylor Mali

#36 Zoner

Zoner

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 174 posts

Posted 11 August 2006 - 08:59 PM

Warlock tanks are by far the easiest to use, if you are also using the proximity agro.

We were short healing last week, and had 11 total in the raid. 3 of them died at around 4 minute mark, leaving 4 on each side (and only infrequent spot heals for mutate tanks). Killed them in around 8:30, fastest run ever.


When the warlock is tanking his warrior partner need to stand between him and the boss, and match the movements of the warlock if the warlock has to move from explode bugs or blizzards. He should generally be closer to the warlock than the boss, so that the warlock can follow the warrior into melee range when its his turn to tank, so the warlock can eat uppercuts, since the melee crew will not always be there in time to do that. Keeping the MT from eating uppercuts is pretty much the #1 thing you can do to make this fight significantly easier, followed quickly by keeping demoralizing shout up on the boss when possible.

In addition about 10 seconds before the boss switches back to melee mode you should put up a Curse of Doom, as its a good backup plan for getting agro back in the rare cases of missing proximity agro transitions, timed right its much faster than SP spam which is somewhat weak dps wise in SR gear.

When its 5 seconds to teleport you should be under the bosses legs a bit off center so that you are closer to the middle of the room, so that any rare occurences of Arcane Burst or Uppercut during a teleport punt you toward the tanking position. Face away from the wall in the direction you have to run in advance then and haul to 30-35 yards once the teleport happens. Occasionally an Arcane Burst happens at the teleport, which is mostly due to the warrior still being too close, but its more of a nuisance since if you are in the right spot you will land in your tanking position anyway. Greater Arcane Protection Potions are super easy to make and drinking one before the fight is all you need usually if at all.

Sometimes you get uppercut while waiting on the teleport, I just hit a healthstone and run back in unless the teleport happens while I'm not back in proximity range, then I just run to max range while yelling at the healers to stay on the MT until I get it. One healer on each side should be dedicated to healing you after this situation as well since somtimes the teleports take a while and you can eat 2 or 3 uppercuts waiting on the teleport to happen. And the same healer should have the job of renewing you when Vek'nilash is up so you can get mana back to full and start all over again.

I also carry a large number of Fire and Frost protection potions and use them reactively if necessary, explode bugs give plenty of warning and if Shadow Ward is down I'll drink one before the damage happens. I usualy just get healed through blizzards since if they target you you are in the center of the radius, and as a tank moving out of healing range of the healers is more dangerous.

#37 Kalia

Kalia

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 7 posts

Posted 11 August 2006 - 09:05 PM

Hi, my guild is on Twin Emps too. As a SR tanking warlock, I have a different problem than healing (unfortunately, my knowledge is rather limited in that field, so I'll leave it to the brighter healing minds of the guild). In order to ease up the healers' mana use on the MT while he is tanking Vek'lor, my guild has opted to have a warlock try to pull aggro from the MT right after twin teleport. I generally pull aggro onto me about 10 seconds after teleport, which saves quite a bit of mana on the healers' part from what I understand (taking 1-2k instead of full damage).

However, sometimes Vek'lor would physically run to me, melee me (2.5k-3k, not that big of a deal), and then fire off an Arcane Burst (big deal). I position myself farther than the MT from Vek'lor, but well within his Shadowbolt range.

1. Can the Arcane Burst be entirely avoided? How? Is there something I'm doing wrong in order to pull aggro from Vek'lor?
2. If it cannot be avoided, I've noticed that as Vek'lor starts to run toward me, my movement sometimes halts the Arcane Burst casting (either jumping back once or running slightly forward). What is the best way to make Vek'lor abort Arcane Burst?

Thank you for your time and wisdom. :)

~Altima

The way he behaves is really messed up since 1.11 (I think that was when it changed). When I first learned this encounter, lock tanking was great. With my new guild, learning it again, Vek'lor behaves so differently than he used to. The way he charges the target just seems to be random. The AE can only be avoided by outranging it, so I guess if he runs at you-- haul ass and get out the way. The risk you run into here is how close the two brothers get to each other.

I know you're doing lock tanking for a reason, and I do think it used to be the better way. With the new way Vek'lor behaves though, I think its best to just use warriors. With my new guild, we used warriors and locks for a couple days and seemed to be getting nowhere. Vek'lor was just doing random things, locks not pulling Vek'lor off of the warriors fast enough, etc. We switched to using warriors and killed them on like our 7th attempt. You warriors are going to take a hell of a lot of damage from Vek'lor but with decently geared healers, it shouldn't be an issue. We run with 5 healers for each warrior. With that amount of healing on one person, 2-3 people can be taking a break when Vek'nilash is on your side.

Not trying to convince you or anything, but the way Vek'lor behaves seems to be completely random. I'm the GM/Main Raid Leader for my guild, and I was hellbent on using locks and warriors when we first started. A friend suggested using warriors only, and I was amazed at how easy it became.

My guild did this also, we had Twin Emps down using warlocks, even tanking with prox aggro after a port on Vek'lor. it worked beautifully, with warlock SR healing was easy, and Vek'lor behaved very well. After the patch, things changed. First, he seems to only choose to obey the pause after port sometimes, so he may insta-burst and hit your tank and lock (assassinating the lock seconds later). I've personally noticed this, most of the time on Vek'nilash, I can sunder or HS and there is almost always a second or more pause before he does anything, not always teh case on Vek'lor, who will sometimes burst or melee instantly after a port. Next, if you don't try the prox aggro, and have locks peel him, he almost always runs at the lock now, and sometimes he'll even chase the warrior too, which is really annoying.

Eventually we decided on a rather unique idea, exploiting Vek'lor's idiocy: We have the warriors tank Vek'lor IN his melee range. This makes him decided to burst sometimes, but more often than not, he'll melee half the time. Basically making him act like Vek'nilash with about similar burst DPS like qualities. The main advantage is much more predictable behavior (he doesn't move, and uses mostly healable abilites, admittedly, he can burst/shadowbolt, but healers can catch it). But it might mean we have to flask our tanks all the time to catch Vek'lor's burst DPS unfortunately, but it does deal with his idiot behavior.

#38 Zaq

Zaq

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 318 posts

Posted 11 August 2006 - 09:11 PM

I was called upon to be a fill in emps tank when only one of the really SR geared warlocks was around last night. I spec'd SL (Ewww) since it seemed like I needed the MD bonus resistance and 30% split with the pet made things easier on the healers. My questions/concerns are these: I feel like my hp pool is hurting in many ways more then having a lock tank helps at all (~6k fully buffed with this gear http://ctprofiles.net/3222316 ). Does anyone have any suggestions about what I can do short term to help improve the over-all quality of my tank set? It felt like my health was moving much too fast to allow quality mana conservation, is it beneficial to even bother with me tanking under those gear constraints?
"I have nothing personally invested in my own opinions. I'm just, like, inviting you to join me on the bandwagon of my own uncertainty." -Taylor Mali

#39 Zoner

Zoner

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 174 posts

Posted 11 August 2006 - 09:55 PM

I was called upon to be a fill in emps tank when only one of the really SR geared warlocks was around last night. I spec'd SL (Ewww) since it seemed like I needed the MD bonus resistance and 30% split with the pet made things easier on the healers. My questions/concerns are these: I feel like my hp pool is hurting in many ways more then having a lock tank helps at all (~6k fully buffed with this gear http://ctprofiles.net/3222316 ). Does anyone have any suggestions about what I can do short term to help improve the over-all quality of my tank set? It felt like my health was moving much too fast to allow quality mana conservation, is it beneficial to even bother with me tanking under those gear constraints?

My tanking gear: its around 9000 hp (8800? dont really remember) flasked and buffed up.

http://ctprofiles.net/44458

I also tank with a conflag spec and provide the imp for myself and the MT on my side.

Interesting alternative gear choices would be Felheart pants with the new +10 SR enchant, a 2nd Nemesis Skullcap with the +10 SR enchant instead of the ZG one. And of course the SR robe but we have never had one drop in AQ at all. Basically the last 100 points of SR are as good as the first 200, so hitting 300+ is pretty important. With the new rank of shadow ward and that amount of SR it fully negates one bolt (0 to 90 damage usualy is all you take), good for when explode bugs are about to go off.

Farming all the ghosts in DM west with just a healer helping is entirely doable, making getting an Eidolon talisman is pretty easy. In addition the guild should be giving you the broodlord head or at least letting you take the red scepter shard out of turn if you have a queue of people also trying to get it.

Fire and Frost resistance are more or less unimportant (fire > frost if you have to choose though), those damage sources can be negated on the fly with potions during the fight the fight though.

#40 Khlysti

Khlysti

    Ithyphallic

  • Members
  • 275 posts

Posted 11 August 2006 - 11:13 PM

Eventually we decided on a rather unique idea, exploiting Vek'lor's idiocy: We have the warriors tank Vek'lor IN his melee range. This makes him decided to burst sometimes, but more often than not, he'll melee half the time. Basically making him act like Vek'nilash with about similar burst DPS like qualities. The main advantage is much more predictable behavior (he doesn't move, and uses mostly healable abilites, admittedly, he can burst/shadowbolt, but healers can catch it). But it might mean we have to flask our tanks all the time to catch Vek'lor's burst DPS unfortunately, but it does deal with his idiot behavior.

Not all that unique when many guilds having been doing it that way for months :P

Anyway, when we were learing twins (a few weeks before cthun became killable) we first tried with warlocks, healing was quite light overall in what was needed, but the transitions frequently went badly wrong. Veklor would run around alot, forcing the warlock tank (and often the healers on that side) to move alot too. These moves combined with blizzards and/or bugs were our major problem. So we quickly and easily removed both problems by using a warrior. The two warriors (one each side) stand back to wall pretty much directly under the lanterns. They never move, and they (pretty much :P) never die. Having a static tank position is great as is the purely awful dps veklor puts out in melee, the exlosion is rare, bolts infrequent and his melee attacks are weak. I can understand guilds using warlock tanks as its 'cool' and lets you dps veklor aswell, but as to why some have warriors tank at range eating shadowbolts I will never understand, its so much more damage to heal than the other 2 methods.

So, just as I do each time a twins thread comes around, I advocate you use warrior tanks for both emps, tank both in melee, and collect your free loot.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users