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#41 Fira

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 11:52 PM

we use warrior tanks the whole time, and veklor is rape against warriors. :(

#42 Xard

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Posted 12 August 2006 - 12:15 AM

well, I know in our guild our warriors tank him at range with bshout because it lets the healers fall back to max healing range and thus never get any blizzards. You kind of have to weigh that benefit, since obviously losing anyone over the course of the fight will make it a lot tougher.

#43 CD

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Posted 12 August 2006 - 04:39 AM

So, just as I do each time a twins thread comes around, I advocate you use warrior tanks for both emps, tank both in melee, and collect your free loot.

How does this work in practise? Won't Vek'lor blizzard the healers a lot?

Also for guilds who use demo shout: do you accept the neutral bug aggro and AOE them down, or stand somewhere where the shout won't aggro bugs. There seems to be a bug- free space near the stairs, but I can imagine healer LOS might be a problem there if there's a blizzard and the healers have to move.

My guild killed them recently, with almost all our best players and still after a lot of wipes on the night- we use Warriors to soak Shadow Bolts at range. Healer mana was fine but we still had a fair few healers dying to blizzard and the occasional random neutral bug train (No Thunderfury, no Demo shout, no idea where they kept comming from).
I'm confident we can kill them again with the same group, but we rarely have all our best players and I'm interested in trying new things/ seeing if anything can be done to make things easier so we can kill them consistently with a few key guys missing from the raid.

#44 Necrotoid

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 04:46 PM

I have a question about blizzard. I am a warlock and involved in killing bugs on the melee side, so I don't get a good perspective during our fights.

We believe blizzard to result from poor positioning (clumping too close to Veklor). Currently everytime a blizzard happens on / near the healers, it's a wipe and the raid leader gets pissed off, saying blizz's should never happen. However, from most videos I've seen blizzards seem to happen fairly regularly.

My questions: should we assume blizzards fairly often? Are you supposed to avoid them directly on the healers? How do the healers handle the blizzard aspect of this fight? Move out th' way comes to mind. Does this mean you spread your healers out enough so one blizzard can't knock out tank healing for a whole side?
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#45 Infenwe

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 05:20 PM

Spread out and MOVE B***H you know the drill. If only 2 of your tank healers get hit by blizzard the remaining should keep the tank up just fine. And if you die to blizzard + explosion... well you suck.

#46 Monsanto

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 05:32 PM

I actually find the Twin Emps to be a breeze to heal through.

Healing during Vek'lor (the magic guy) is easy because it's entirely predictable. Use this time to sit out and regen in some rotation. Use greater dreamless sleep potions instead of major mana pots because you get a better return out of it.

Keep the tank on Vek'linash topped off with the same rank heals you use for most other bosses. I actually downrank to rank 3 healing touch (usually I use rank 4). In this case, I deal with the damage spike from Unbalancing Strike with a swiftmend. The other 5 heals come in shortly thereafter and he's back up to full. After a UBS, your tank should use shield block to guarantee (or almost guarantee depending on his block) that there will be no crushing blows in the next few seconds.

One interesting thing I learned about UBS from analyzing combat logs, is that they always occur at some multiple of 5s intervals. They are usually 10 seconds apart. Sometimes they are 15 seconds apart. Very, very rarely they can be only 5 seconds apart.

Also, to help learn the encounter, your tanks should be using those 450 armor pots that last 1 hour, and chugging stoneshield pots. That will help mitigate a lot of damage.

I think your healers are running out of mana because (1) they are intimidated by Vek'linash and are overhealing, or (2) they are getting hit by blizzards and bugs and blowing mana healing themselves.

#47 Forcewinder

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 05:36 PM

Has anyone else had healers pull aggro off the tank? We were using two warriors for the whole fight because the warlocks couldn't make it that night and the healers ended up pulling aggro off the warriors and that caused a wipe. We had the warriors in regular tanking gear, so the shadowbolts combined with bugs/blizzard made the tank require lots of healing.

#48 Monsanto

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 05:47 PM

Has anyone else had healers pull aggro off the tank? We were using two warriors for the whole fight because the warlocks couldn't make it that night and the healers ended up pulling aggro off the warriors and that caused a wipe. We had the warriors in regular tanking gear, so the shadowbolts combined with bugs/blizzard made the tank require lots of healing.

Yes it happens with the double-warrior method. In fact, it should be stated that if you do it with that method, it is espcially important to downrank heals, especially if they don't have the -threat talents and/or totems/blessings.

One mistake I made a long time ago, and I watched another druid do it recently, was to not modify my NS-heal macro. I nuked a rank 11 heal for 6k and pulled aggro from Vek'lor. Now it's NS-rank 7 for me.

Getting blown up by bugs/blizzard is something else though, and you're going to have to work on that. It's possible to max range the blizzard so there's really no excuse for your raid to take more than 1 or 2 of those in the entire 15 minutes.

#49 Feenix79

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 06:47 PM

I must say, as a preist the lock/warrior combo is far less stressful than only using two warriors.

#50 Chicken

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 09:39 PM

I have a question about blizzard. I am a warlock and involved in killing bugs on the melee side, so I don't get a good perspective during our fights.

We believe blizzard to result from poor positioning (clumping too close to Veklor). Currently everytime a blizzard happens on / near the healers, it's a wipe and the raid leader gets pissed off, saying blizz's should never happen. However, from most videos I've seen blizzards seem to happen fairly regularly.

My questions: should we assume blizzards fairly often? Are you supposed to avoid them directly on the healers? How do the healers handle the blizzard aspect of this fight? Move out th' way comes to mind. Does this mean you spread your healers out enough so one blizzard can't knock out tank healing for a whole side?

It's possible to outrange the Blizzards, but it seems people have somewhat of a blind spot when you tell them to "max range heal"; they do stand at max range when healing, but forget to take into account they should not be standing in a certain sphere around Vek'lor. An image to illustrate what I mean:

Posted Image

The red area would be the Blizzard range, the blue area would be the radius which you can stand in that you can heal the person tanking Vek'lor at range. The pink area is the overlap, where you're standing at "max heal range" yet still standing in Blizzard range at the same time.

#51 Shalas

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 10:05 PM

We just pick a healer on each side who understands where to stand, stick an icon over thier head, and just tell the rest of the healers to hug them. I don't think I've been hit with Blizzard since we started doing this.

#52 Dakous

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 10:32 PM

Just to poke a point of curiosity - how do feral druid tanks fare in place of warriors?
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#53 Shalas

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 10:36 PM

250 defence after UB seems like it'd cause some problems.

#54 Melthar

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 12:03 AM

It's possible with druids..and it's been done, even or a few first time kills, but I believe the druids that have done so, have all said that they were not the best choice, requiring substantially more mana to keep alive (although, subjectively their healers said they were "easier to heal".. but that's purely based upon healer preference)

The interesting part is they don't take any crits after unbalancing stike.. with that low defence, 100% of the hits are crushing blows and this pushes crits off the table.

That 1 point in improved shield block makes a nice difference after unbalancing strike, and is probably the clincher in the warrior > druid for this fight in particular.

If you have a dedicated feral druid.. throw them on bug tanking.. 15s feral charge can be quite useful here at times.

#55 Erylith

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 12:54 AM

Some suggestions to try :

1) Imp demo shout is great if you can get it off without neutral bugs getting out of control. Its a bit more than 200 less per normal melee and 800 per unbalancing strike. Course hunters will start using multishot if you use it.
2) Thunderclap is nice at same time as imp demo shout since Thunderfury aggro's neutral bugs. Again this will cause your hunters to multi-shot.
3) Avoidance gear is nice. Don't go all out but things like Pauldrons of the unrelenting, belt of might etc give your healers a break every time you dodge. Juju escape can be timed since unbalancing strike is about once every ten seconds. Grace of air if you are horde. Agility pots etc as well on tanks.
4) Have tanks only ever use shield block after an unbalancing strike since it negates crits and crushing blows for the next 2 attacks (assuming imp shield block).
5) The main tank should never get an uppercut. Uppercut priority seems to be - people hitting vek'nilash in range, people not hitting vek'nilash in range and lastly vek'nilashes current target. We have an "uppercut bitch" wait till the teleport and then head to other side. Rogues should be in range immediately after teleport to cover quick uppercut. DPS warriors can use intercept as soon as he teleports (if that person has say Ashkandi and sword spec get them to cancel autoattack for bad luck bit crit and sword spec)
6) I can't imagine doing it with only warrior tanks. We transfer straight to warlocks. Get 1-2 bad transfers per fight but this seems a hell of a lot easier than a warrior spamming battleshout.

Good luck on it.

My guild doesn't use number 1-2 cos we are nubs.

#56 Gumibear

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 05:15 AM

Eventually we decided on a rather unique idea, exploiting Vek'lor's idiocy: We have the warriors tank Vek'lor IN his melee range. This makes him decided to burst sometimes, but more often than not, he'll melee half the time. Basically making him act like Vek'nilash with about similar burst DPS like qualities. The main advantage is much more predictable behavior (he doesn't move, and uses mostly healable abilites, admittedly, he can burst/shadowbolt, but healers can catch it). But it might mean we have to flask our tanks all the time to catch Vek'lor's burst DPS unfortunately, but it does deal with his idiot behavior.

Not all that unique when many guilds having been doing it that way for months :P

Anyway, when we were learing twins (a few weeks before cthun became killable) we first tried with warlocks, healing was quite light overall in what was needed, but the transitions frequently went badly wrong. Veklor would run around alot, forcing the warlock tank (and often the healers on that side) to move alot too. These moves combined with blizzards and/or bugs were our major problem. So we quickly and easily removed both problems by using a warrior. The two warriors (one each side) stand back to wall pretty much directly under the lanterns. They never move, and they (pretty much :P) never die. Having a static tank position is great as is the purely awful dps veklor puts out in melee, the exlosion is rare, bolts infrequent and his melee attacks are weak. I can understand guilds using warlock tanks as its 'cool' and lets you dps veklor aswell, but as to why some have warriors tank at range eating shadowbolts I will never understand, its so much more damage to heal than the other 2 methods.

So, just as I do each time a twins thread comes around, I advocate you use warrior tanks for both emps, tank both in melee, and collect your free loot.

It sounds to me like when you tried Warlock tanking, you had less than ideal positioning. Every problem you've identified can be fixed with better positioning of tanks and healers.

I actually tank Vek'lor across the room from the tank-only healers, over by the stairs where the bosses are pulled from. I have one priest with exceptional mana regen who stays with me, who also runs into range to heal the warrior on my side when Vek'nilash is on my side of the room. We also have mid-room Paladins who spot heal people fighting bugs, but stay in range of tanks just in case.

Any movements Vek'lor makes toward me put more space between him and Vek'nilash, so they never will get close enough to each other to heal. Also, if you run away from him when he charges, he'll stop to Shadowbolt quickly. My Warrior can pull Vek'nilash back to a better position after the port, and due to the arrangement of healers, he has healing coverage without forcing very many healers to move.

Vek'lor is only doing ~1000 to me every 1.6 seconds (Curse of Tongues works and makes healing trivially easy) and tank healers get plenty of time to regen. Since Vek'lor is actively being tanked this way, we load him up with dots and this extra DPS sped up our TE kills considerably.

Using Warlocks is more than just a "cool" thing to do. Set up correctly and the fight is very easy.

#57 Shalas

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 05:28 AM

Warrior tanks aren't exactly hard to keep up against Vek'lor. Even at 3k a bolt half the MT healers can stand around regenning. Increasing the complexity of the fight to make the easy half easier has always seemed pointless to me.

#58 Auphi

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 05:34 AM

Vek'lor is only doing ~1000 to me every 1.6 seconds (Curse of Tongues works and makes healing trivially easy) and tank healers get plenty of time to regen. Since Vek'lor is actively being tanked this way, we load him up with dots and this extra DPS sped up our TE kills considerably.

Can anyone confirm that CoT works?

#59 Oneeye

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 05:35 AM

Mana efficiency. You cannot heal through this fight spamming flash heal, and you cannot heal through this fight without canceling heals when required.

Yes you can :P

Every shaman and druid in my guild (I honestly have no idea what our priests do) just runs a low rank healing wave (our slow heal, and I have no idea what the druid one is called) and never cancels... the entire fight. You overheal quite a bit, but your raw heal is far above what it otherwise would be. I normally run oom with no consumables at 3-5%. It's a fun fight to compete on the healing meters for :P.

#60 Warpony

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 09:16 AM

We use 2 warriors and they have NEVER lost aggro to Vek'lor... We had one time when he like 4-5 secs before a teleport ran up to the tank, exploded him away and then another melee got tele-aggro.

Other then that oddity Warriors work great. (And i guess that oddity would have happed to a lock too...)

My basic thought as a raidleader allways was: Minimize things that can go wrong. Adding Warlocks taking aggro, risking problems with healing transition, risking blizzards on both war+warlock, risking charging (which happend alot when we tried lock-tanks) and such just seemed a waste. Our healers got no problem (mostly :p) keeping warriors up, so we stick by it.




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