Jump to content


Photo

GDKP Run Discussion: Spread it to your Server


  • Please log in to reply
422 replies to this topic

#41 Douglas

Douglas

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 472 posts

Posted 14 October 2009 - 05:47 PM

For items nobody bids on do you just DE them and auction off the shards at the end?

One way to look at this is, the vendors will always bid. Minimum bid is the vendor sale value, and if nobody bids that high, the item is actually vendored and the gold added to the pot. Presumably if shards are worth more than the vendor price on your server, some enchanter will always bid more than the vendor price.

#42 Tyrian

Tyrian

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 2,376 posts

Posted 14 October 2009 - 05:58 PM

The calender works well for your regulars. You can blanket invite your guild. Or manually invite specific non-guild players (vip's, interested players eager to come) in addition. Usually it is scheduled in advance so people can free up the time to go, but theres another good reason: People will farm extra gold early in preparation! (Might sound stupid, but its true. I've commonly heard people say things like, "I need to farm up 6k to take to the GDKP this Saturday").

Instead of asking for a explicit-gold figure, you could ask players to briefly explain/introduce themselves and their reasons for why they want to go:

- Their WoW situation
- The loot they are after
- How badly they want it

It should be pretty clear from their answers what category those players fall into (referring back to the OP). Also im sure people in the BB community like their status there, and they probably won't want to bring that into disrepute by being an ass.

Answers could be,

- "Im a hardcore raider. I just got my Shammy alt to 80 and he needs most slots upgraded. I have nothing else ingame to spend all my gold on!"
- "I really want a few offspec items so my tanking OS is up to standard. Currently it isnt, and im eager to buy these pieces. I need to get this done quickly and these runs sound perfect for that".
- "Im a casual player without much gear, but I farm and play the AH religiously. These runs sound great for me and i'd love to get Tier 9!."
- "I just want Deaths Verdict for my alt. I understand how GDKP runs work and i'd love to come, ill do anything to get Deaths Verdict."
- "Im a raiding main. I can get/have everything I want: BOP, crafted or otherwise - but I still need Grim Toll badly. Ive wanted it for months and never won, id love to come to this run."

Although no numbers were explicitly listed at all, it's pretty clear those players sound like the right types.

Personally I dont think asking people for an explicit gold figure is rude, in this case. Perhaps a more generic 'your spending price range' is easier to swallow for some people instead of a flat number. GDKP runs dont tiptoe around the fact that it's about gold. But If you setup people to give comments like that, you effectively can get the answers you want (without the number).

With regards to slotting order, as Rucvv mentioned theres a general list

- Create the raid yourself
- Invite your Main-tank, Main-Healers and a small selection of geared DPS (The backbone Mains)
- Privately extend a personal invite to your VIP members
- Privately extend invites to other players who have given prior notice they'd like to come (only if you feel they are suitable). As Rucvv mentioned, its more important to get good players initially than rich ones. These players are the ones spreading word-of-mouth like wildfire.
- Open invites up to trade and word-of-mouth through friends. This is the messy bit where you will find yourself having to armory people, check wealth values via trade etc.

Chances are your players will help you fill out the run. Most of them understand the concept by now and they'll know that "My friend with 100k who wants to come" is the right sort of player to refer to you. This is another reason why good players can be better than rich players intially, they know what you're looking for and will help you find it.

Essentially specific people get offered a spot in your raid first. While it might be tempting to just say "just invite the richest players first", a smart raid leader knows that its often the average players (initially) who provide the best word of mouth - which in turn is better in the long run.

#43 KasumiRevy

KasumiRevy

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 78 posts

Posted 14 October 2009 - 09:22 PM

//KasumiRevy

Gdkp does not create any gold and hence it does not affect the AH. However, the gold/dollar ratio decreases because of the increased flow of gold (proven by entire Korean servers where they ran gdkp pugs for over 3 years).


Actually the affect to gold/dollar ratio proves my point. If you are going to get more gold to your dollar on these servers it is in direct relation to the inflation the server experiences due to the greater distribution of wealth. Let's not confuse what I am saying with 'making gold', these raids don't make gold. They distribute it.

Of course, this affect is dependent on how wide spread GDKP runs are on the server. Anyone got a heavy population us server that has wide spread use of this method? I can help with your inflation and make a ton of gold and transfer it off at the same time! :dance:

#44 rucvv

rucvv

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 14 October 2009 - 10:54 PM

Actually the affect to gold/dollar ratio proves my point. If you are going to get more gold to your dollar on these servers it is in direct relation to the inflation the server experiences due to the greater distribution of wealth. Let's not confuse what I am saying with 'making gold', these raids don't make gold. They distribute it.

Of course, this affect is dependent on how wide spread GDKP runs are on the server. Anyone got a heavy population us server that has wide spread use of this method? I can help with your inflation and make a ton of gold and transfer it off at the same time! :dance:




OK, I have argued about this topic before, but I think I need to know the clear definition of "inflation". As far as I know, inflation means general increase in prices of goods (and/or services).

In Korean servers, there is no such thing as rolling pugs (there are "some", but you are generally considered stupid if you prefer a rolling pug) and they have started gdkp since Zul'Gurub, so I can tell you the entire Korean servers had gdkp very widely spread for a very long period of time.

Gdkp does increase the flow of gold (i.e. the hidden golds are distributed), but however, this did not seem to affect the in-game economy. I've been asking around the prices of the top list goods in Korean servers and compared them with wowhead price, and I found no significant difference.

So if you are a normal WoW player, you will experience no gold inflation.

However, this did not seem to be true when considering gold/dollar ratio. I saw a lot of people arguing the cause of this (Koreans said they see a sudden drop in gold/won every time a new dungeon comes out - if I remember correctly), and they came with a conclusion that gdkp DOES NOT directly increase the gold flow, but it INDIRECTLY causes increase in gold flow by distributing hidden gold and promoting more people to do dailies, which creates gold.

So there seems to be an increased amount of gold flow, but how come it does not affect the in-game economy (i.e. no inflation)?

Well, I don't know. All I can guess is that since gdkp improves the pug quality (in general) and allows more people to run raids, the increased amount of loot compensates the increased amount of gold flow. And the increased need of in-game goods such as enchanting mats, gems, etc. are balanced out with promoted farming.

If you have any opinions, please shout it out. I'm personally quite interested in this topic.

Anyway, my point is, gdkp DOES NOT cause inflation, at least not in game.



Rucvv when you mention top list goods , what are you looking at? I would be looking at raw materials. For instance herbs and minerals, consumables etc. This is where I would expect to see inflation.

The point you have about promoting farming may actually be what is helping stabilize the market.



Yes, I'm talking about herbs, minerals, eternals, enchanting mats, raid consumables, and even the prices of the loots in instances. So far I found no in-game inflation that seemed to be caused by gdkp.
And I think stabilized market means no inflation. (gdkp increases both gold flow and the market size)

#45 KasumiRevy

KasumiRevy

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 78 posts

Posted 14 October 2009 - 11:11 PM

2 Things may account for the auction house not seeing significant impact:

There are already people moving gold from these servers to others. People with significant understanding of economies may have read the tea leafs early and have set a network up to tunnel this into other places where they can make a raw profit.

Due to the ability to purchase raid upgrades with enough capital the auction house prices would actually fall to a certain degree, if the best you can 'buy' is a death verdict on an alt not a darkmoon greatness.

Rucvv when you mention top list goods , what are you looking at? I would be looking at raw materials. For instance herbs and minerals, consumables etc. This is where I would expect to see inflation.

The point you have about promoting farming may actually be what is helping stabilize the market.

Sorry I am not attempting to derail this thread, it just struck me that widespread use of this method would have an impact on more then just the raiders themselves.

#46 silents47

silents47

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 15 October 2009 - 05:14 AM

We've been doing these on Gorgonnash-US for a couple years now, and the gold has been stolen more than a couple times, but the vast majority go well. Some of the more recent runs that have been ninjaed have had the gold taken back and split among the participants by GMs, surprisingly enough. I've found the runs, which we call GKPs, to be a good way to gear new 80s, or a great way to make money if you go as an already-geared character.

The only way they've impacted the server economy has been when people use their share (sometimes up to 10,000 gold) to try to completely take over the herb/enchanting mats/ore market, but it's never actually had a lasting impact.

#47 Exodus-SG

Exodus-SG

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 19 posts

Posted 15 October 2009 - 08:58 AM

Pretty sure GKP run started from China and not Korean. Been seeing GKP run since MC days.

The largest single bid comes from Tempest Keep, the pheonix mounts go for 200k in a recent run. It was a 14 men run, so everyone walks away with 14k+ of gold.

However, it definitely has some impact to the economy, as quite often, the big spenders are gold buyers. There will be more gold circulating in the server as compare to server that don't have gkp run.

#48 Tinwhisker

Tinwhisker

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 1,032 posts

Posted 15 October 2009 - 01:42 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that GDKP runs require that a fairly large and stable raiding population already exist on that server.

Reading through the first post on and looking at my own server, I don't think this would work on Scarlet Crusade. While there might be some of each type of player listed, I have a hard time believing that there are enough. It appears to me that the entire system is based upon there being at least a moderate turn-over of players in the runs. And to support that turn-over rate you need a larger population. With only 14 guilds on SCr that can beat ToC-25N, I just don't think it would work on our server or any other with a small raiding community.

That's not to say that the raid community is bad, we have some top 20 world achievements but the actual raid population is not large enough to support this I think. (Scarlet Crusade does have a very large population though and as a result of some of these factors, the economy is generally more inflated than others.)

#49 Kaacee

Kaacee

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 302 posts

Posted 15 October 2009 - 01:54 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that GDKP runs require that a fairly large and stable raiding population already exist on that server.

Reading through the first post on and looking at my own server, I don't think this would work on Scarlet Crusade. While there might be some of each type of player listed, I have a hard time believing that there are enough. It appears to me that the entire system is based upon there being at least a moderate turn-over of players in the runs. And to support that turn-over rate you need a larger population. With only 14 guilds on SCr that can beat ToC-25N, I just don't think it would work on our server or any other with a small raiding community.

That's not to say that the raid community is bad, we have some top 20 world achievements but the actual raid population is not large enough to support this I think. (Scarlet Crusade does have a very large population though and as a result of some of these factors, the economy is generally more inflated than others.)


That probably just changes the types of runs that will be profitable and popular. Running Naxx on a backwater server would still be a steamroll, and probably attract enough people. Anything is better than a pure PUG. Running this type of raid might also help your guild in recruitment, and start building a more solid base of raiders on the server.

#50 Lanthon

Lanthon

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 53 posts

Posted 15 October 2009 - 03:46 PM

One thing I haven't seen mentioned, but think is a fair question: Is there a fair way to compensate the raid leader for the effort? I mean, fielding tons of tells every time you log on takes a lot of time outside the raid. Has anyone tried an extra share for the leader (splitting 26 ways instead of 25), or keeping the unsold items (vendor/shards), or simply deducting a fee from the pot prior to splitting?

This causes ethical qualms, I'm sure, but what is mentioned here entails a lot of work for the raid leader. I suppose getting 4k gold as part of the pot split is nothing to shake a stick at, but you're getting the same gold as participants, who have a much easier job.

#51 silents47

silents47

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 15 October 2009 - 05:46 PM

On my server, some GKP raid leaders started imposing a 10-15% "Tax" back in Ony/MC, meaning they took 10% off the top for themselves, then split the gold 19 or 39 ways, depending on the raid. Usually, though, people aren't willing to go on a run where their "hard-earned money" is being split unevenly, especially the geared people who are helping to carry the buyers. Most of the successful runs I've been on have just been even splits (as it ends up being a metric crapton of money for 2 hours of work anyway), or have resulted in forum posts about OMG NINJAED GOLD when a tax was imposed without warning at the end.

#52 Daenerys

Daenerys

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 406 posts

Posted 15 October 2009 - 06:45 PM

Anyway, my point is, gdkp DOES NOT cause inflation, at least not in game.


I keep going back and forth about this statement, but I'd like to propose that GDKP actually could cause inflation. My reasoning is that you have players who have large pools of gold that they *cannot* spend in the absence of GDKP runs because there just aren't enough BoE options available. The gold they are holding is essentially out of the market. When you introduce GDKP runs, you allow that gold to be re-introduced to the market, and it gets distributed to other players who may have need to actually spend it (the guys who can still upgrade through BoEs or still need to powerlevel a profession).

To me, it seems similar to how the Fed works here in the U.S. One of the key monetary policy tools they use is purchasing or selling government-backed securities. Since they can print money whenever they want, they can influence inflation simply by printing money and buying securities with it. This increases the overall money supply, and hence you have inflation (yes, it's more complicated that my example in the real world, but that's the idea at least).

A player in full BiS (minus his coveted Death's Verdict) sitting on 200k is going to play a similar role to the Fed when he joins the GDKP run and throws 20k at the other raiders who still need to buy Crusader Orbs or flasks or whatnot.

Hopefully this isn't derailing, because this topic is extremely interesting (to some of us, at least).

#53 Malthes

Malthes

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 47 posts

Posted 15 October 2009 - 07:01 PM

One thing to consider is how many other gold sinks blizzard has added to their game. 5k epic flying, 20k mammoth mounts, Dalaran teleport rings, etc. It's conceivable that casual players who profit off these runs would spend their money that way, instead of buying six glyphs, 8 enchants, Epic gems, and two stacks of flasks of the AH. I know of players who are decent raiders, but have never taken the time to get their epic flying, just because that's 5k they aren't spending on raiding. GKP raids change that equation quickly.

Anyway, my minor point is that Blizzard's gold sinks and vanity items could offset some inflation on AH prices.

#54 Fargom

Fargom

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 160 posts

Posted 15 October 2009 - 11:43 PM

This is a really amazing thread, I already run a ToC25N run on sunday afternoons, I bet I could convert it over to GDKP with no problems. I already get 30-35 people of all types who want to run, and have a solid group of 10 geared players (tanks/heals/dps) who I could probably get to go for the gold.

This is on the Lightbringer server, Alliance side. Its a release day server with multiple established guilds, a large population and even a guild that is competitive in world rankings. I don't think I'll have much of a problem since I'm already a semi respected pug leader. I'll report back with how it goes, I'm going to work on converting my normal run to GDKP over the next few weeks. Thank you very much for the informative post.

#55 Tyrian

Tyrian

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 2,376 posts

Posted 15 October 2009 - 11:51 PM

Look forward to hearing updates in upcoming weeks, Fargom. Things like: How much money you made, What problems and challenges you faced, what successes you had, whether other people embraced/rejected the GDKP concept. Will be especially interested in how easy/hard you felt it was to convert your regular random PUGS over to the new format. Alot of people (and raid leaders like you) will be reading this thread thinking, "Ok I understand the concept, but does GDKP really work in practise?".

The first run will be exciting. People will be curious and everyone will probably have fun trying it out to see what the fuss is about. Your pot might not be that huge on the first week (see Alcaras' post on Page 2) - but remember the first few runs set the scene and it's word of mouth/reputation that will push that up in future. Don't expect to start raking in numbers like I mentioned happen on Blackrock right away on your first run, people might be nervous about spending initially - until they are more familiar with the concept (aka that you're not trying to scam them!).

It's the subsequent runs after your first which have the most potential. Thats when your momentum and word-of-mouth really starts to kick in.

#56 rucvv

rucvv

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 16 October 2009 - 12:29 AM

I keep going back and forth about this statement, but I'd like to propose that GDKP actually could cause inflation. My reasoning is that you have players who have large pools of gold that they *cannot* spend in the absence of GDKP runs because there just aren't enough BoE options available. The gold they are holding is essentially out of the market. When you introduce GDKP runs, you allow that gold to be re-introduced to the market, and it gets distributed to other players who may have need to actually spend it (the guys who can still upgrade through BoEs or still need to powerlevel a profession).



This is an argument that people had who were against gdkp system when it was first introduced in Korea (this is back in ZG in vanilla WoW). This thought sounds very logical (still to me it sounds very logical) and would have happened this way,
but somehow, it didn't.
As I have stated before, Koreans ran gdkp for over 3 years and this inflation did not seem to happen, when comparing the prices of AH and even the prices of loots in gdkp runs to the ones in US servers (I have checked on forums, wowhead, etc.).
What I find interesting is the reason why likely inflation causing factor, gdkp, not causing inflation (or at least, how it is balanced out).

Sorry Tyrian, I'll delete this post if you feel uncomfortable with the derail.

#57 Allev

Allev

    King Hippo

  • Members
  • 545 posts

Posted 16 October 2009 - 12:17 PM

- Many of the core raiders are replacing farming (gold creation) with GDKP runs.
- Many of the few-upgrades raiders are hoarding the gold just as much to buy in future GDKP runs.
- There are still fixed costs to raiding (repairs, gems on upgrades, enchants, consumables) which remove gold from the market. I imagine the under-geared compensate for this a little by flasking up even on more trivial content.

These factors probably counteract the inflationary effect to the level of trivial on the scale of the entire market.

#58 Robertthorn

Robertthorn

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 4 posts

Posted 17 October 2009 - 03:27 AM

How do you distribute gold at the end of the run? Do you mail it? Open trade 24 times?

Is there a mod that will track whom you've traded gold to? I'd hate to lose track when several thousand gold is at stake. Maybe a trade is canceled because someone moves out of range and you don't catch that the money didn't transfer. Maybe you skip a name accidentally. Maybe someone is trying to trick you into getting a second cut.

#59 Tyrian

Tyrian

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 2,376 posts

Posted 17 October 2009 - 03:34 AM

How do you distribute gold at the end of the run? Do you mail it? Open trade 24 times?


It's split on the spot. A common way is:

- Everyone stands in close range of the Raid Leader
- Nobody trades the Raid Leader, he trades you
- He gives you your share of the pot
- He kicks you out of the raid (aka your done, you can hearth now)
- He Repeats x 24, until everyone has been kicked out of the raid

You won't have any problems doing it this way. Remember most people are unlikely to act stupidly, because they will want to get reinvited in future.

#60 rihkama

rihkama

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 321 posts

Posted 17 October 2009 - 12:09 PM

For those interested on EU GM policy about the pot maintainer disappearing with the gold: World of Warcraft (en) Forums -> Policy on GDKP intervention

In an incident where a Master Looter fails to maintain such a "cash for drops" agreement and disappears with money belonging to players, we would investigate such an incident as a scam. We would of course recommend that players don't get involved in this kind of scheme and instead attend raids and instances with their friends, guildmates and other trusted players who will not organise such a scheme.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users