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#1 Malan

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 01:46 PM

http://wow.allakhaza...tml?witem=23005

Our Noth kill this week yielded the ToFW, of the 3 shaman on the raid I was the only one without a relic slot item so my class leader just sort of defaulted it to me. I'm not a DKP counter/hoarder so I just said "whatever" and looted it for the fairly low cost it had. I have to wonder though exactly what the hell Blizzard was thinking when they came up with that totem. First off the mana kickback from it is dependent on the lvl of LHW cast - I normally use Rank4 which only gives 7-8 mana. Rank 6 is the only LHW that gets the full 10 mana back per cast. So whats the usefullness of this totem? Certainly its better than having an empty relic slot, I'm not going to complain about getting 10 mana back off a heal - but that's also a bit of a puzzle, because you get the mana back AFTER the heal, this totem doesn't actually make the heal cheaper in mana cost.

LHW 6 at a base cost of 380 mana with no talents would take 38 casts to regain the mana for one more LHW. The mana regained per cast doesn't seem to make this totem any sort of actual utility.

This is perhaps a lead-in to a bigger question of what exactly is Blizzard doing with the relic slots for paladin/shaman/druids? The blue posts when they first announced them stated something along the lines of how relics were supposed to make up for the other classes having ranged wpns with stat bonuses on them.

#2 Chimera2402

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 01:52 PM

I just like to go with the fact some of the item designers aren't too bright.

And IIRC the totems/relics were supposed to be just minor buffs to stop the shammies/druids/pallies whining that they had no ranged slot (Egan's ftw).

#3 Malan

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 02:03 PM

Here I found the original post by Vaneras.
http://blue.cardplac...l-en/837558.htm

We're in the process of implementing a relic slot for the Paladin, Shaman and Druid. Ideally, this will be live upon the release of patch 1.10. Basically, this slot will allow these three classes to equip a relic item, since currently these classes are unable to reap the statistical benefits associated with equiping a ranged weapon.

The phrase "statistical benefit" says to me "lack of stamina, int, str, atk pwr, agility" that those classes have no access to in that slot. But the relics that have been released in no way address that issue.

Eyonix had this to say-
http://blue.cardplac...ral/7790129.htm

I want baby penguins that sit and watch me work.
I want a unicorn that laughs at all of my jokes.
I want to know the significance of the numbers 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, & 42.
I want Paladins to have a grossly overpowered relic
I want the ability to sing like Mary Weiss -- regardless of how unnatural it would appear

The reality is, we're adding more relics with each patch. It's doubtful that you'll see a relic which offers quite the gain that you are proposing, however, more and more options will become available as new relics are introduced into the game. I will provide a sneak preview of the relics going into patch 1.11 as soon as possible.



#4 draghkar

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 02:07 PM

Well I'd not call Totem of Life a "minor buff" to be honest. Some relic are good other are not worth, simple as that.

#5 Omelet

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 02:07 PM

Since I'm a paladin, I'll try to give some insight into the usefullness of our relic.

http://wow.allakhaza...tml?witem=23006

Libram of Light is the Paladin equivalent, which adds up to 83 healing on flash of light. Now, since flash of light is a 1.5 second cast, the 43% modifier applies and it effectively adds ~36 healing to a flash heal.

For me, this is an awesome relic item. My best mana efficiency (especially on long steady damage fights) is spamming an appropriate rank of flash heal. The heal bonus isn't huge by any means, but definitely better than nothing.

I actually like what blizzard is trying to do with the relic slots items. They could have simply given us a variety of +5/+5 books and been done with it. Instead they gave some items that function almost like an extra set bonus. It also allows you to carry around a few relics and swap them for certain fights. For a paladin, there are three relics that I like, -25 mana cost to cleanse (Chromaggus, Sulfuron), -20 Mana cost to seals (Solo/PVP), and +83 to flash heal (Raid Healing).

They have said that more relics will be introduced in the coming patches / expansion, hopefully they'll listen to some of the feedback on relics that aren't widely used, and make improvements.

#6 draghkar

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 02:14 PM

Since I'm a paladin, I'll try to give some insight into the usefullness of our relic.

http://wow.allakhaza...tml?witem=23006

Libram of Light is the Paladin equivalent, which adds up to 83 healing on flash of light. Now, since flash of light is a 1.5 second cast, the 43% modifier applies and it effectively adds ~36 healing to a flash heal.

I wonder when this arguments are going to stop, +healing is +healing each 3.5 seconds healed. Period.
Do not argument if I cast 1.5 seconds cast then the 43% multiplier is applied and then bla bla bla.
May be and I repeat "May be" you need to do distinction when your cast time is reduced with a talent.

#7 Malan

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 02:22 PM

I wonder when this arguments are going to stop, +healing is +healing each 3.5 seconds healed. Period.
Do not argument if I cast 1.5 seconds cast then the 43% multiplier is applied and then bla bla bla.
May be and I repeat "May be" you need to do distinction when your cast time is reduced with a talent.

Maybe, and I repeat "maybe", you should check your information - Flash of Light is a 1.5 sec cast time.
http://thottbot.com/?sp=19943
And I'm not even sure what the heck you're going on about that with the "+healing is 3.5 seconds healed" bit.

But anyways - back to the ToFW, is there some use to this or major benefit that I'm just not seeing? I can't imagine that Bliz just took some random totem and slapped an epic quality tag on it for no reason at all.

#8 Humbaba

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 02:24 PM

I picked up a Totem of Sustaining from Scholo not long after 1.11 and I have no complaints about it. The Totem of Rage is decent as well, but it blows the argument about +dmg is +dmg each 3.5 secounds (yeah, you used healing, but bear with me) since the spell has a 6 second cooldown. Still, not a big deal.

I'd like to see something like the paladin relic that would make poison and disease cleansing cheaper. It annoys me to no end that I can cure poison from everyone in my group for just slightly more than it costs to cure poison for one person not in my group.

#9 Maledict

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 02:31 PM

His point isn't that Flash of Light isn't 1.5 seconds casting time.

Draghkar was statsing that commenting that something was weaker because it only gets 43% of the bonus makes no sense - because over 3.5 seconds, it will get 100% of the bonus, just like any full length spell. If you stand and spam that spell, you are getting the full effect out of the tinket no matter the casting time of the spell, be it 1.5 seconds or 3.5 seconds.

The only thing that makes a difference are talents that reduce casting time. It's like the people who say Scorch doesn't get much benefit from + to damage gear because it only gets 43% of the bonus - that's just wrong.

#10 Argrax

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 02:33 PM

Is it not the case that relic items for specific spells are flat adders to said spell? Ie. totem of rage adds 30 damage to all shocks and the 43% modifier does not come into play?

#11 berg

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 02:45 PM

Well the fankriss totem was clearly underpowered and got significant improvement after awhile (the increase was as significant from upgrading from green->purple)

This item seems similarly impotent considering where it is acquired. I would expect some kind of improvement moving forward.

#12 berg

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 02:45 PM

Is it not the case that relic items for specific spells are flat adders to said spell? Ie. totem of rage adds 30 damage to all shocks and the 43% modifier does not come into play?

They are scaled, it is not a flat addition.

#13 Omelet

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 02:49 PM

I wonder when this arguments are going to stop, +healing is +healing each 3.5 seconds healed. Period.
Do not argument if I cast 1.5 seconds cast then the 43% multiplier is applied and then bla bla bla.
May be and I repeat "May be" you need to do distinction when your cast time is reduced with a talent.

I was simply talking about the exact healing that is added per cast, but you are correct, the +83 healing is the same as the +healing on the rest of my gear, just that it only applies to flash of light. The reason I spoke about the modifier was to give a "per cast" bonus.

#14 Malan

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 03:37 PM

Is that significant? Well, HT rank 4 gets 8 mana back, so its basically, when I am chain casting I get back 8mana2.5, or 16mana5. That's a decent enough buff for me.

Hmm... so if I did the math right... 10 mana back from a 1.5sec cast time is equivelant to getting ~33 mana/5 if I chain cast LHW.
Where X = 10mana * 5seconds / 1.5 seconds
That right?

#15 Oneiros

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 03:40 PM

Is that significant? Well, HT rank 4 gets 8 mana back, so its basically, when I am chain casting I get back 8mana2.5, or 16mana5. That's a decent enough buff for me.

Hmm... so if I did the math right... 10 mana back from a 1.5sec cast time is equivelant to getting ~33 mana/5 if I chain cast LHW.
Where X = 10mana * 5seconds / 1.5 seconds
That right?

So when I was looking at this idol. I was like "WOW I can get back 25 mana from rank 4 which only costs 166!!". This thread is a downer. I'll still grab it cause free mana is free mana though :)
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#16 Nite_Moogle

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 03:41 PM

(10 mana / 1.5 sec) ~= 6.6 MP/sec, so yes, 33 MP/5 is about correct assuming you're spamming like hell and discounting lag. In reality it's probably more like 25 MP/5 (assume you lose about 1 second to lag). If you're using R4 LHW and getting 7.5 mana back per cast it's about 20 MP/5.

The obvious drawback is that if you're Healing Way spamming it does absolutely nothing for you, but if you're actually using LHW it's pretty solid.

Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.


#17 Praetorian

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 03:48 PM

See, the problem with the LHW relic, as noted, is that it doesn't offer enough of a benefit in practice. I would much much rather have a 25 mana back on long-cast HW (scaling) like druids. As an added benefit, it would actually modify a different spell than the AQ40 relic. As noted, 10mana every 1.5 sec sounds awesome, and that's what Blizzard was probably thinking when they chose the number. If you are spamming max-rank LHW you are getting 33mp5, which is huge. But, uh, if you're spamming max rank LHW, 33mp5 isn't going to save you. You're going to be OOM in 45 seconds. Besides, you never do that. I use LHW spam on trash pulls and on fights like Faerlina or Gothik where lots of people are taking damage and need quick patching-up, but even there it's never nonstop. So, in order to get the most out of this relic, I have to behave in a horribly inefficient manner. The +80healing to LHW on the other hand, benefits me every time I cast the spell, no matter the circumstance (and also goes a long way to letting me downrank LHW in a lot of spammy situations, which saves more mana than the Noth relic ever could). 25 mana back on HW, on the other hand, would be really, really useful on a ton of fights where I don't use LHW much and mana is a concern (Patchwerk obviously, and others).

#18 frmorrison

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 03:56 PM

This relic is weak compared to even the Scholo LSW relic, but it is better than nothing.

If it didn't have the mana gain scaled down for lesser ranks it would have been neat.

#19 berg

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 03:56 PM

Exactly it is just a poorly designed item. We have 2 single target healing options.

Slow and steady but efficient.
Quick and bursty but very inefficient.

Items catered to one of these spells should act upon their strenghts not their weaknesses.

The noth totem is pointless because it lessens a weakness that can be circumvented by using different spells, instead of improving a strength.

To me it would be like giving a defensive warrior an item that changed their damage from -10% to -5%, instead of an item that gave them +5% threat.

#20 Kytrarewn

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 04:11 PM

The only thing that makes a difference are talents that reduce casting time. It's like the people who say Scorch doesn't get much benefit from + to damage gear because it only gets 43% of the bonus - that's just wrong.

Eh, damage spells are a different story. Considering that, on my mage, I lose about 0.2 seconds per cast because of server lag (I don't use fastcast... yet), my 1.5 second spell is really a 1.7 spell. THat's 0.86x damage per 3.4 seconds.

Frostbolt, untalented, is 82% damage every 3.2 seconds. Or, 0.9x damage per 3.5 seconds.

Fireball, untalented, is 100% damage every 3.7 seconds (I'm going to ignore the DoT, which I don't believe benefits from +Damage). That's 0.945x damage per 3.5 seconds.

Even though, "mathwise", they should all get the same benefit from +Damage every 3.5 seconds, DPS-wise, it really doesn't work that way, if you look at it from a practical standpoint, because your 200ms latency is a bigger %-increase to the casting time of the spell.
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