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Warriors: Is Protection Spec Worth it?


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#41 Anias

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 04:59 PM

By the way, -am- I wrong? Is there a situation where Prot is just nigh required?

Imp Shield Block is handy vs Vek'Nilash. Enough so that you should probably force the tanks who have it into tanking him,

Conc Blow is suprisingly useful vs stunable adds. (Noth, Anub, Sartura...)

The extra 5 seconds on shield wall are very useful, because they let you hit it BEFORE you need it, and still have it last through the entire duration of the effect you're concerned about (30% on huhu, Maex enrages, patch enrage, etc etc etc)

Shield slam is a lot of threat, and helpful in encounters with lots of taunting (ebonroc potentially) or encounters with deagros (broodlord, noth, Razuvious adds, vek'nilash post teleport when your rogues are coming in with combo points on the mob and cooldowns to burn).

This is ignoring the value of last stand, which is pretty noticable when learning stuff.

Prot is far from being a "bad" tree. While there are few situations where it is "required" (Flask of the titans will fix many many many ills) there are a number of situations where it's contribution to your progression is far more noticeable than any spec change in the raid. As a parting thought, If you are asking your priests/druids/paladins/shamans to spec for healing, and you are not fielding 2 protection tanks minimum, you are doing yourself and your healers a disservice.
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#42 Monsanto

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 04:59 PM

I seriously don't even understand the point behind the question.

Is it "Worth It" to spec MS if you want Grand Marshall? Of course. If PvE is your focus, sure, you COULD go something other than deep-prot, but why? Really. I'm trying to understand WHY someone whose WoW-time is spending mostly Main Tanking raid content would WANT to spec anything else. Some kind of deep obsession with damage meters? Not wanting the warrior forum to make fun of you? You CAN tank in any spec, but isn't making EVERYONE'S life easier worth having to PvP on an alt?

Not to start a QQ rant, but the only reason you see these types of questions is because Blizzard thought it would be cool to allow warriors to perform their primary PvE role with PvP specs for so long. Healers, on the other hand, got the short end of the stick.

Anyways, to address the OP:

Improved Shield Block (just need 1 point, any more is up to you) is awesome because you use blocks to make it impossible to get crit or crushed.
Toughness = less damage taken -> more mana for your healers
Defiance = I don't even have to say anything about this one
1h specialization = more rage and more aggro
Last Stand = Literally a life saver
Improved Shield Wall = Very nice on Huhu, Maexxna, Patchwerk, and I'm sure others.
Shield Slam = It's best use is as an instant-attack high-aggro move that you perform on untauntable mobs.

I'm sure I forgot all kinds of other stuff.

#43 Schnappi

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 06:42 PM

I also (from a nonwarrior, take it with a grain of salt) think that Shield Slam is just extremely underrated by most. I know our MT yells out on vent that he got a 1000 SS crit on Nefarion- suppose he's got to keep himself entertained on that fight -somehow-, but that's a pretty nice bit of burst aggro for not much rage. I dont' know the added threat, but I'd venture to guess that SS is certainly up there in terms of efficency- and on fights where every little scrap helps (eg, the learning encounters) I think it matters.

A 1000 Shield Slam in Def Stance causes (250 base + 1000 damage) * 1.5 threat.
Sunder in Def Stance causes 377 threat iirc.

Shield Slam is a beast.

#44 Oggie

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 07:15 PM

A 1000 Shield Slam in Def Stance causes (250 base + 1000 damage) * 1.5 threat.
Sunder in Def Stance causes 377 threat iirc.

Shield Slam is a beast.

Does the dispell cause extra threat if it manages to snag something?

I know our casters adore it on Azzy for example because it uusally pops off that shield, not sure if there are more than a couple other encounters where it helps....saves purge duty, that's for sure.

It's also great to hear our MT shout on vent that he crit and nailed that clothie with SS.

Overal, I've yet to see any evidence of it being weak since it's most recent changes. If it's worth speccing all the way in protection is an entirely different conversation, but in a vaccum it really seems like one of the best aggro genration abilities around.

One other thing that's been mentioned- at this point, it's kind of rare to see pvp friendly specs, or grind friendly specs, in a high end raiding guild. Warriors are mostly the exception, having the ability to farm/grind very well while specced for pure PVE dps (though it's not optimal for grinding or pvp). For those of us who've specced for the good of the guild, this arguement is a little...frustrating. I wouldn't expect a lot of people to be sympathetic to a tank that doesn't want to spec it.

Oh, and I firmly agree that more than 2 prot warriors is excessive.

It makes me want to hit Marge Thatcher on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.


#45 sekdar

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 07:17 PM

I think protection spec shines when raiding new content. When your main tank's gear is the best it can be and you've been clearing the zone every week for months, the MT can probably safely spec out of prot.

The "new" shield slam is simply so powerful in terms of threat generation that I actually consider the protection tree to no longer be junk past 15 points. The difference of a tank with shield slam versus one without it is extremely noticeable - before it was buffed, as a DW/fury warrior I'd be forced to hold back on most fights, whereas now I can go all-out and have almost no threat of pulling aggro (which is a geared Fury warrior's greatest limitation).

If your DPS classes are at the upper echelon of gear and you don't have a Thunderfury (or, even if you do), a protection specced MT makes a very noticeable difference. Your raid DPS will go up significantly if they're at the point where they hold back (no matter how little) to avoid pulling aggro.

As for protection spec's survivability, other posters have already covered it.

#46 Rodent

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 07:18 PM

Oh, and I firmly agree that more than 2 prot warriors is excessive.

We have 5-6 active prot warriors.

#47 moz

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 07:19 PM

Oh....and a Protection spec warrior in good gear with a TF in PVP is one of the funniest things you've ever seen.

:(

#48 Oggie

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 07:26 PM

We have 5-6 active prot warriors.

Really? Is that per raid or guilded? I'm kinda confused about what you'd do with them most of the time...


Oh....and a Protection spec warrior in good gear with a TF in PVP is one of the funniest things you've ever seen.

:(

Heh, I meant funny because it's amazing how many people will think that he's an 'easy kill' and get very, badly, trounced, because he's known to be 'just protection specced'.

It makes me want to hit Marge Thatcher on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.


#49 Gnor

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 07:29 PM

im 10-10-31 and very happy with it
though thinking about droping 5/5 unbridleled wrath for imp demo, or mabey imp SW or more in TM
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#50 Rodent

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 07:46 PM

We have 5-6 active prot warriors.

Really? Is that per raid or guilded? I'm kinda confused about what you'd do with them most of the time...

Several fights in naxx requires quite a few tanks. Noth and patchwerk are two very good examples.

#51 Ashuko

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 07:50 PM

We have 5-6 active prot warriors.

Really? Is that per raid or guilded? I'm kinda confused about what you'd do with them most of the time...

I don't understand why it's a bad thing to have all of your "tanks" heavy into prot. We're currently clearing BWL and with the need for 4-5 well equipped tanks, why not just give them all the longevity and threat generation from SS?

Am I missing something?

#52 Rodent

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 07:52 PM

Am I missing something?

In my opinion, not really. Others would probably disagree though ;)

#53 Axiom

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 07:54 PM

I'll give you my perspective from a guild that started from scratch to running naxx in the past few weeks. My guild is Crusaders of Aegwynn (coa.guildportal.com). We formed from server transfers and had 5 people at most when we formed with BWL exp to Nef in early Feb. We had 1 proc warrior at the time who left after our 1st or 2nd nef kill. We were able to kill nef with our proc tanks in full might(one they switch from dps to proc) which made it a ton easier. We have since cleared through Cthun in AQ and it was opened in late april on our server, one of the last servers US Wide to have it open. Learning encounters with proc warriors can help a ton. You can always see the difference in healing a proc warrior vs a dps warrior with the same gear. We have since taken down 3 bosses in Naxx and could only have been done with our proc warriors making the encounters easier. With them outputting more threat than a dps warrior since shield slam rage was reduced in cost, you can tell a noticable difference in threat increase giving the other classes a chance to output more dmg. Proc spec is worth it if your learning new encounters. It makes the fights easier for everyone, increases the mitigation from a tank, helps the healers out if you have sucky healers, increase threat compared to a dps warrior. I used to be anti-proc warrior for nearly 1 year and half, before switching to proc to help advance quicker on new content, You can easily tell the difference on a raid being fury or ms and switching to proc. Yes your damage sucks ass, but for a proc warrior its not all about dmg, its about threat. Threat will make it able for your WHOLE raid to have a dps increase and go all out on bosses.


Its all about being num 1 in threat, not 1 in the dps meters.

#54 Oggie

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 07:58 PM

Several fights in naxx requires quite a few tanks. Noth and patchwerk are two very good examples.

Fair enough- my guild's jsut making first inroads into naxx and only got TE down recently, so my experince is colored by that. I didn't realize that it was that significant of an advantage- well, with the possible exception of Patchwerk- to have more than the MT/one other specced that way. I'm a big fan of the extra durability that Prot offers, not to mention the threat, I just didn't realize it was that important!

On a sidenote, for our first noth attempts we were fairly healer heavy and actually had our add tanks switch into dps gear- kind of odd, but seemed to help stabilize the first transition a lot. We have quite a lot of work left on that fight, and who knows what our end strategy will end up being, just one of those crazy things we thought we'd try.

It makes me want to hit Marge Thatcher on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.


#55 Schnappi

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 07:58 PM

Does the dispell cause extra threat if it manages to snag something?

I know our casters adore it on Azzy for example because it uusally pops off that shield, not sure if there are more than a couple other encounters where it helps....saves purge duty, that's for sure.

I think the dispell threat is pretty trivial, just like all other dispells. I somehow seem to never get it to proc though :p

It's also great to hear our MT shout on vent that he crit and nailed that clothie with SS.

I usually spam warrior chat everytime I break 1k with anything bar execute. It just feels great when you're used to very small numbers.

Overal, I've yet to see any evidence of it being weak since it's most recent changes. If it's worth speccing all the way in protection is an entirely different conversation, but in a vaccum it really seems like one of the best aggro genration abilities around.

As I said before, Shield Slam is a beast. If you like tanking and it's your main job for the raid, why wouldnt you take it?

One other thing that's been mentioned- at this point, it's kind of rare to see pvp friendly specs, or grind friendly specs, in a high end raiding guild. Warriors are mostly the exception, having the ability to farm/grind very well while specced for pure PVE dps (though it's not optimal for grinding or pvp). For those of us who've specced for the good of the guild, this arguement is a little...frustrating. I wouldn't expect a lot of people to be sympathetic to a tank that doesn't want to spec it.

Oh, and I firmly agree that more than 2 prot warriors is excessive.

Warriors specced for pure PvE DPS are actually "specced for the good of the guild" if you count them as DPS instead of tanks.

Any DPS class has a solo-friendly spec by definition. Solo means killing the opponent before it kills you; out-dpsing wins over outhealing and outlasting in a time-sensitive context. Some mobs (mostly casters) are almost only out-dpsable due to cooldowns on CC spells. It's something healers and tanks have to learn to live with. And it sucks, yes.

Ask your warriors to choose between a DPS or a tank role. "Strongly suggest" a DW build if they choose DPS, because enforcing it is bad for morale :p It also prevents loot drama on 2H weapons, which makes it easier to keep your tanks and healers happy. Personal experience tells me that those who like to Main Tank usually go Protection by choice.

#56 Tracktor

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 08:03 PM

So I've almost always been a big fan of Prot spec ~ 35 points. I've tested fury over the past week in MC/BWL and haven't noticed a huge difference in threat generation. I've noticed i'm easier to kill when i'm off tanking an add. I'm not the Main Tank for my guild, but i fill the shoes on the multiple tank mobs like Vael Broodlord, and enjoy eatting flame buffets. The true power of the SS showed itself to me when i went and played in a random pug to scholo/baron etc. Back when i was a 35 point prot spec warrior, i could easily, and i do mean easily rip aggro off the other people in a group with a well placed sunder/sheild slam. With the fury spec i'm finding i have to wait for a Taunt cooldown in order to keep the attention of more then 1-3 mobs. Granted that doesn't apply to MC or BWL because i'm not tanking more then 1 mob at a time.. usually. But the threat generation is clearly awesome from a Shield Slam. Today i'm dropping my experimental Fury(30) Prot (16) Back to my 5/11/35.

My question. Or statement i want feedback on. I Always put 5 points in Parry. My understanding is Parry is better then a block just due to the 0 damage taken. That's as far as i go into that tree. Stance dance is nice, but i find my points placed elsewhere more useful when i'm straight tanking.

http://www.worldofwa...250133500021251

Is the current build i'm thinking about rolling for straight up tankage. I'm super happy with 5% crit extra rage gen on hits.. i mean honestly... when is a tank not swinging? I can't say no to extra rage so low in the tree. Piercing howl. I find extremely useful just for staying alive when flying kites in Razorgore's opening phase. It also lets me run away when i am getting owned. Now the Tricky tree i really need feed back on. Prot. My guild is making our way through BWL at what is so far 1 new boss a week (simply amazing). Some of the mobs are stunnable! I know multiple mobs in AQ are stunnable as well. I'd not even consider Imp Revenge and Imp Shield bash if we didn't already have MC on easy farm mode. Down to my ultimate question. Currently i have ~385 Defense in tank gear. Would the 10 Extra defense at the cost of 5 talent points be worth it in lieau of 3 Imp Revenge and 2 Imp Shield bash?

I did not put points in imp Sunder or Imp HS.. For the simple reason if i needed to reduce the rage cost i'd have to cut either 5 points out of Unbridled Wrath and lose Piercing Howl. And quite simply.. Ubridled Wrath gives me the extra rage i need to perform the sunders and Heroic Strikes. Please comment, rip it, slice it dice it. This is my understanding what a tank in my guilds current level of proggression should be.

You can't offend me by dissing my spec, i know i have a ton to learn still :D

Ty in Advance for my any input.

*edited* removed sig to prevent being smited.

#57 Oggie

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 08:06 PM

Warriors specced for pure PvE DPS are actually "specced for the good of the guild" if you count them as DPS instead of tanks.

Definately! Speaking about the specific case of the MT/OT/ect protesting speccing it, I love dps warriors...even if they do require so much more maintenence.

Any DPS class has a solo-friendly spec by definition. Solo means killing the opponent before it kills you; out-dpsing wins over outhealing and outlasting in a time-sensitive context. Some mobs (mostly casters) are almost only out-dpsable due to cooldowns on CC spells. It's something healers and tanks have to learn to live with. And it sucks, yes.

All builds are equal, but some builds are more equal than others. *grin* Any dps class will solo reasonably well, some will just solo 'better'. The soloing viablity of a warrior specificly I've found (when dps specced) is suprisingly high, and unquestionably a prot spec hurts that a bit.

Ask your warriors to choose between a DPS or a tank role. "Strongly suggest" a DW build if they choose DPS, because enforcing it is bad for morale :p It also prevents loot drama on 2H weapons, which makes it easier to keep your tanks and healers happy. Personal experience tells me that those who like to Main Tank usually go Protection by choice.

Extremely good advice, I'd say.

It makes me want to hit Marge Thatcher on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.


#58 Ranalis

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 09:08 PM

I guess I'll kick in my two cents, since I've recently made the switch. My group is sorta mid-progression. We've killed through Emps in AQ, and have Raz on farm with Anub and Noth soon to follow in Naxx. Raid 4x per week, about 20 hours total, and we're pretty casual friendly. Some of our more dedicated people are starting to hit the wall about the "lazy" people, and as the Raid Leader I'm a bit concerned about throwing us into C'Thun, but we've got to do it because we want to keep progressing.

I've been MTing in this group for about 6-7 months, and led our progression from MC --> Nef --> Huhuran. For this entire period I was the "gimped" Fury/Prot spec, and found it to have a lot of utility, despite the fact that I didn't have tactical mastery (an admitted MAJOR weakness of the build). I held aggro quite well, and my healers didn't complain much about my durability, but I've always had the core Prot talents and Last Stand, so...

Anyway, after our first Emps kill I decided to spec Prot, and am now 36 prot. My healers IMMEDIATELY noticed a significant improvement, and said I took less spiky damage (obviously a good thing). On our BWL run this week I encouraged a couple of our best DPSers to try to pull aggro (though I may have to try the gold bounty), and they were trying things like max rank distracting shot spam with no results. Even our best DPS warrior had some issues. So, for me, N=1 (one warrior, one guild, only one week of raiding), I'd say that there is no question having a full prot MT has some significant advantages. I'd also say that MAKING your MT do this could have some serious disadvantages - I made the speccing decision myself, and I have the option to be any spec I want in my group. I'd try to convince him/her though - I've really been realizing exactly how good the new Shield Slam is for holding aggro in combination with imp sunder, imp HS, defiance, and one hand spec. With all the DPS races Naxx has introduced, and every boss in creation having an enrage, I can't see why you wouldn't want to at least test the spec in your raid situation.

#59 Kasi

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 07:37 AM

Kind of an aside to what this thread is about, but I've been tanking stuff in 5 mans and even a bit in 20 mans lately as fury/arms. So no defiance or any of those nice threat abilities like shield slam. But then again these are 5-10 mans. Generally I get by either by doing dps tanking where I tank in berserker or battle in places like strat/scholo etc or on bosses and tougher mobs use some tanking gear with mace and shield. Now tonight in a run I get some yahoo rogue with better gear than mine (he had full darkmantle with some ZG gear like the Hakkari warblade. Pretty damn good dps, even though not all of the gear is epic. While I have lionheart, titanic and a smattering of blues and heroism. He ended the instance around 47% in damage while I was second at 21-22 ahead of the mage and warlock.

So this guy pulls the whole instance and constantly starts fights. It was very difficult to keep agro off him, had to do nearly all pulls in defensive dual weilding, mashing heroic strike and sunder and bloodthirst. My usual method of cleaving and whirlwinding for regular mobs couldn't beat his blade flurries. I generally had to focus on my target to hold it off him. Bosses it was pretty tricky too, although I managed it most of the time. So my question is there a point where a rogue can pull agro off a tank no matter what? Or just if the gear disparity between the two is high enough? Then again from what I'm wearing I probably have similar AP and better crit than a tank in might, so I'm not sure better gear would have helped unless I was using Conquerors. It would be nicer to be able to lock my target no matter who I'm competing against for agro, but maybe this isn't the case.

#60 Brissa

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 08:11 AM

So this guy pulls the whole instance and constantly starts fights. It was very difficult to keep agro off him, had to do nearly all pulls in defensive dual weilding, mashing heroic strike and sunder and bloodthirst. My usual method of cleaving and whirlwinding for regular mobs couldn't beat his blade flurries. I generally had to focus on my target to hold it off him. Bosses it was pretty tricky too, although I managed it most of the time. So my question is there a point where a rogue can pull agro off a tank no matter what? Or just if the gear disparity between the two is high enough? Then again from what I'm wearing I probably have similar AP and better crit than a tank in might, so I'm not sure better gear would have helped unless I was using Conquerors. It would be nicer to be able to lock my target no matter who I'm competing against for agro, but maybe this isn't the case.

There is no way in hell id be close to holding aggro on anything if one of our rogues went nutters in a 5man unless I went zerker dps.
The reason is simply that in tankgear in a 5man you just get far to little rage to work with.




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