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Rogue AEP values and min/maxing


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#1 Mish

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 05:29 PM

So I want to min/max my PvP and PvE gear. I took Shadowpanther.net webpage and imported it into a spreadsheet. In addition to the unmodified version, I have a "DPS" version and a "PvP" version.

In my DPS version, I take stamina and resist out of the equation.

In my PvP version, I want to add weighting to Stamina and Dodge while removing weighting for +hit. This is where I'm at.

The standard AEP values are 1 Agil = 1 Stam. I would like to give Stamina a higher value for PvP, but I'm torn about how much I should go. 1.5? 2?

I would like some comments about what each of you feel the weighting should be and why?

The same question stands for items that have +Dodge %. The current value is 1 AGI = .33% Dodge.


The full equivalencies are here for those unfamiliar with this system (unlikely):

Formula: 1 Agility = 1 Stamina = 2 Strength = .1% Crit. = 5 Defense = .33% Dodge = .2% Parry = .13% To Hit = 2 Attack Power = 4 Any Resistance = 5 Health/5 Sec. = 50 Armor
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#2 exog

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 05:32 PM

why remove +hit in pvp?
it still removes white misses in pvp too afaik.

#3 chalon

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 05:38 PM

The issue with any equivalence system is that equivalence from a DPS point of view is a sliding scale. Even a matter of buffs or not can have a huge difference. For instance, with my current gear from a DPS point-of-view, 1 crit = about 17 AP unbuffed, but with standard raid buffs 1 crit = 22.35 AP.

#4 Vhal

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 06:32 PM

At some point, I'm going to be motivated enough to set up a page that calculates everything in relation to AP instead of Agi, which I (at least) find to be so much easier to handle conceptually -- Agi gives two benefits, thus scaling twice, and AP is directly convertable to raw weapon DPS.

But anyway, for PvP values...

I've done the rogue and the mage thing in PvP on a competitive server. I like stamina. I find it's less important on the rogue than the mage, though. I'm still reprioritizing everything post-1.12, but I tend to value stamina at 1-1.5 agi.

Hit is more important than any other stat up to +5. Of course, +5 is not terribly hard to get, and with 1.12 Precision becomes viable in more PvP builds (I'm currently running 16/12/23 daggers, taking 2 points in Precision to pick up Imp. Sprint in Combat). Past +5, its value drops tremendously -- it's only a white damage booster, and PvP is significantly biased towards yellow damage.

#5 Maverikki

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 07:59 PM

I found a page from my bookmarks that lets you play around with the weights of different stats. Seems it lacks some equipment from AQ and onward. Maybe someone interested enough could send a message to the author and update it.

http://ccgi.brogett..../cgi-bin/AEP.pl

#6 probiscus

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 09:07 PM

Everytime someone brings up AEP, I choke a kitten.

#7 issei

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 12:01 AM

AEP is at first a nice general tool/guideline and then a crutch and then a handicap

#8 Karakas

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 12:05 AM

AEP is evil. It tries to assign static values to each stat, because we all know +crit/+hit don't scale up the more damage you do per hit :rolleyes:

#9 Vhal

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 01:34 AM

Erm, Karakas, figuring it out dynamically is kinda the point of Brogetta's calculator, linked above.

It seems to me that the two most important questions with regard to evaluating rogue gear are "How does attack power relate to crit (or hit) chance in terms of expected damage output?" and "How much expected damage output loss is justifiable to gain a certain amount of stamina?". There are, of course, many additional subtleties to it, but the actual value of the majority of pieces of gear can be determined if one has at least reasonable answers to the above questions.

Now, that said, I've never cared for quantifying the value of gear in terms of agility itself (due to it boosting both crit and AP), but find that coming up with a good relative value of AP to the other stats (crit and hit objectively, stam subjectively) is quite helpful.

#10 Dakous

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 01:35 AM

My 50,000 AP totally saved my life this one time Vek turned and did that one off melee beat.
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#11 Kalman

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 08:26 AM

Erm, Karakas, figuring it out dynamically is kinda the point of Brogetta's calculator, linked above.

Too bad Brogetta's has *never* done a very good job of it.
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#12 sp00n

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 08:31 AM

See my sig, something like Brogetta's, yet I enter the items once a month or so when something new comes up.
Still missing some sort of DPS calc though to dynamically adapt the AEP values.

Hm, sig isn't showing, here's the link: http://sp00n.pytalhost.com/wow/

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#13 Boevis

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 08:35 AM

My 50,000 AP totally saved my life this one time Vek turned and did that one off melee beat.

My 50,000 HP totally killed Razuvious this one time healers went OOM and couldn't keep the adds up.

see what I did there?

#14 Mish

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 12:47 PM

AEP is at first a nice general tool/guideline and then a crutch and then a handicap

What do you suggest as an alternative?
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#15 sp00n

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 12:55 PM

AEP is at first a nice general tool/guideline and then a crutch and then a handicap

What do you suggest as an alternative?

The DPS spreadsheet.

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#16 Mish

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 01:07 PM

I use that for doing DPS. I value stamina pretty highly for PvP though and the DPS sheet doesn't cover surviveability.
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#17 Avair

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 01:46 PM

AEP is a very easy to understand rule of thumb. It works quite well enough for what it is, an inexact formula. Yes, a DPS spreadsheet will give you better results, but AEP has the virtue of not requiring a computer to calculate.

For Raiding/PvE though, don't weight stamina too heavily. AEP was a PvP formula primarily.

#18 Maestroquark

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 02:31 PM

My 50,000 HP totally killed Razuvious this one time healers went OOM and couldn't keep the adds up.

see what I did there?

Proved the point? That equivalence measures are bad because everything taken in extremes leaves you extremely weak?
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#19 Faytte

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 03:01 PM

More or less the superfluese damage in Naxx is either

A- easily survivable
B- will instantly kill you

As a result for the raider stamina, as a whole, isnt very important anymore. You'll notice the upgrade in stamina from t2 to t3 is fairly underwhelming (although the dps increase is very nice!).

Thats why as a raider i stick to the spreadsheets.

As far as Vek. Any rogue that far in the game should have

A- Enough HP to survive the uppercuts
B- The common sense to bandage before running back into melee. You can pop evasion or a healthstone if your that impatient.
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#20 Dakous

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 05:52 PM

As far as Vek. Any rogue that far in the game should have

A- Enough HP to survive the uppercuts
B- The common sense to bandage before running back into melee. You can pop evasion or a healthstone if your that impatient.

The point was that if you could find low sta high impact epics that you WOULDN'T have enough HP to survive the uppercuts, so true equivelence doesn't exist. Boevis came up with an alternate example, too.

You said raider stamina isn't that important, but how much does uppercut do as opposed to how much HP does a raid geared rogue have? Forgetting, for a moment, BoK since 1/4th of the people playing WoW these days don't have that luxury.

And on your whole point about "things in Naxx oneshot"... how many things in MC oneshot back when that was the top instance and noone had epics from it? How many things in BWL oneshot? AQ40? But post gearing.. oh boy, you survive.

I'm sure there's no opportunity cost for dying every pull.
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