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Increasing raid DPS via uncommon 'support builds'

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#21 Skav


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Posted 03 September 2006 - 09:41 AM

I did some simulations on my patchwerk playground study : http://www.skav.org/...y_patchwerk.php

Got an impressive +50% damage for warlocks with shadow weaving + approximated infinite healing. So in theory, yes it is a pretty big boost to warlock DPS.

In real raids however, warlocks are imp bitches, shadow priests go OOM pretty fast, and eat 4 debuffs. It would be a very nice boost to a warlock-heavy guild though.

#22 Exewut


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Posted 03 September 2006 - 10:34 AM

For a mob with 4k base armor (minus sunders), it would increase your melee DPS by about 19%. This about a 10% increase in raid DPS over just using sunder.
For a mob with 8k base armor (minus sunders), it would increase your melee DPS by about 11.6%, raid DPS by 6.4%.
For a mob with 12k base armor (minus sunders), it would increase your melee DPS by about 8.3%, raid DPS by 4.6%.

I honestly don't know how much armor a raid boss has... If you don't want to have a warrior in blues, you could also use Faerie Fire and a Curse of Recklessness (it's pretty much the same armor reduction). Or you could use all 5... for a mob with 5K armor, it's an increase for melee DPS of 38% over just sunder. For a mob with 8k armor, this is a 21% increase in melee DPS. For a mob with 12k armor, this is a 17.8% increase in melee DPS.

as far as addons tell me 3.5k (that is after sunders I believe)

#23 Melissande


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Posted 03 September 2006 - 11:59 AM

Being a shadow priest, I must warn you of a few problems. Bascally it requires a high amount of will, as it will make you some envy.

Mages/warlocks will get angry because of loot problems
Some priest/druids will be jealous
shamans may have loot problems too (say Nef's mace)

Some other classes may prefer a "healbot support priest", as they won't see the benefits of shadow and many people see priests as support bots. So politics are the main obstacle to the shadow tree.

Technically speaking, since the priest review, provided you take the talent to regen 15% while under 5 sec, the talent not to get interrupted and the talent to get a free spell every 3 minutes (whose cooldown marries extremely well with devouring plague). It means 16 point in disc/holy. Add another 2 for imp stamina buff.

And then you can get up to 33 in shadow, you won't miss any key talent.

#24 Shalas


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Posted 03 September 2006 - 01:38 PM

You'd be missing the two most important talents. Meditation, Divine Fury and Improved Healing are really the only three talents that significantly improve a Preist's healing, which only leaves 20 free points for a priest who wants to heal well (huge compared to some classes, but not enough to spec shadow and still heal well).

#25 spronk


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Posted 03 September 2006 - 02:06 PM

I feel I must have the strangest guild in the world.
I simply cant convince any of our priests to spec shadow weaving, after 2/3 weeks they always return to holy/balance.

as mentioned above the change to heal/gheal2 from 3 secs to 2.5 secs is an absolutely huge talent, and to get this plus meditation (a necessary talent when healing) makes it impossible to go 31 into shadow. i tried to go shadow on my priest before i switched toons, i just found myself hating how gimped i felt in healing (most disc/holy talents arent that useful at high end 8/8 t2 or better, but meditation, inspiration, and imp healing really are).

in naxx procing inspiration and tossing out fairly large gheals is a regular necessity. shadow priests simply gimp themselves too much to do this, so they end up as gimped healers. they are gimped DPS on most fights due to length of fights (all fights are 6-10 mins long). So while they may be happy, they are lowering raid overall DPS.

If your an old raiding guild and everyone is in full tier2 or higher, its not that big a deal. For a undergeared raid though it has problems when gear that would help mage/lock DPS from bwl/aq go to shadow priests.

To be honest theres a better balance, which is Power Infusion priests. They can spec disc/holy to be offensive while still picking up the important healing talents (insp, med, imp heal), PI themselves while soloing/PVP, PI mages or themselves in raids, and still be uber healers. Nobody even has to know how they are spec'd and they will still be uber healers. They will still be picking up offset gear for a damage set and all the drama that comes with that of course, but healers do deserve a second set of damage gear unless the guild is on call 24x7 to help them farm.

#26 Kalman


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Posted 03 September 2006 - 04:03 PM

From the rogue perspective, if they're looking at ~1k unbuffed and have a 2.8 or slower mainhand weapon, having them go hemo won't hurt raid DPS. It probably won't help it much, but it won't hurt you either, and that rogue will have some nice tricks for other situations (double evasion on Razuvious, CP generation for stunlocks is improved, Prep, Ghostly Strike and some other avoidance tanking talents such that they make a better offtank if required, etc.).
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#27 DeeNogger


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Posted 04 September 2006 - 01:25 AM

so other than TSA hunters, basically everyone is saying that its not work using feral/moon/shadow/hemo ?

#28 Shalas


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Posted 04 September 2006 - 01:34 AM

so other than TSA hunters, basically everyone is saying that its not work using feral/moon/shadow/hemo ?

Other than that TSA isn't an offspec or "support" build, yes.

#29 zomgitsnev


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Posted 04 September 2006 - 07:48 AM

When you get to the point (Start of naxx i guess) that your rogues are geared enough to hit 2k AP without consumables, speccing Hemo will give comparable damage to a Combat swords build, and won't be too much under a combat daggers build. We have a very melee heavy raid setup, and the added damage is certainley noticable over a long fight. I wouldn't recommend Hemo to guilds doing MC/BWL or even AQ, but to those with a couple of bosses down in Naxx, looking to up their DPS a little, I'd say go for it.

#30 Farstrider


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Posted 04 September 2006 - 08:27 AM

Anyways just felt like adding that. Some people seem to have some really interesting hunter misconceptions.

Given the struggles that hunters and warlocks are having making it into raid composition for Naxx I'd say the real hunter dps problems have only just started - i.e. they weren't such an issue in BWL/AQ. I wouldn't say it's a misconception just info that's only become an issue in the last couple of months.

It's safe to say Blizz have realised this given the lack of any hunter talent info for TBC.
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#31 DeeNogger


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Posted 04 September 2006 - 08:31 AM

not to help in the derailing of my own thread, but i would say the biggest problem with hunter dps is the fact that hunters are locked into using a very specific weapon because of their shot cycle (the nature of the dps set up). having hunters saying that a chromag dropped weapon is the best thing to hope for is... pretty awful considering how often other dps classes upgrade their weapons.

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