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Can we talk about 4H agro yet?


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#1 Praetorian

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 05:41 AM

I'm not sure that I really have any profound insights here, or that it'd make sense to share them if I did, but yeah, I think it is not unlikely that Taunt functions a bit differently on the 4H than elsewhere in the game.

#2 XI-

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 05:48 AM

Taunt works the same on 4h as every other mob in the game. That being said they did change the taunt mechanic a patch, or minipatch back.

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#3 Zagzil

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 05:54 AM

Taunt works the same on 4h as every other mob in the game. That being said they did change the taunt mechanic a patch, or minipatch back.

What he said.

Oh yeah BoS doesn't help at all for this fight and totems are great.

#4 Grayson Carlyle

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 06:10 AM

I've had always noticed that same behaviour on BWL drakes, where a tank will Taunt off another, who promptly stops attacking, only to have the drake go back to the former tank when the debuff wears off. That trend continued until about a month and a half ago, and everything seems to work as we would expect it to. Actually, same thing applies to Kurinaxx; he used to swap back even after taunts, but don't now.

No real insight on Taunt, aside from saying "Sorry, I thought this was fixed" :(
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#5 Emeraude

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 06:15 AM

Taunt was changed in 1.11.2. Taunt holds aggro now when you use it on just about any mob, though it is possible for somebody to exceed the taunting warrior's threat level before it wears off.

Anyway you can test this new taunt with any mob. Have 2 Warriors run out, have one Warrior beat a mob into an inch and stop all actions(make sure the mob isn't bleeding) of it's life and have the other Warrior taunt off he should have aggro even without any hostile actions following his taunt.
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#6 Shokk

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 06:19 AM

Taunt, as I understand the mechanic, allows you to place yourself at the exact same agro as your enemies current target, and for the duration of the debuff, forces them to attack you. After the debuff falls off, the mob will select it's target based on top threat, taking into account the melee and range threshold modifiers (110% and 130%).

This description is inaccurate. Taunt used to work that way but was changed in 1.11.1 or some other 3rd-order patch.

Now Taunt does the following:

1) Grants you the threat level of the mob's previous target (the one you're taunt off of)
2) Grants you 'forced' aggro that forces the mob to attack you for the duration of the debuff regardless of threat generated by other players.
4) Grants you 'normal' aggro that you retain after the debuff wears off, as long as another player doesn't break 110/130% of your threat level.


i.e.
Old Taunt:
Tank Taunts off Mage. (Tank now has 'forced' aggro)
Tank does zero additional threat to Mob.
Mage does zero additional threat to Mob.
Taunt wears off, Mob returns to Mage, since the tank didn't break the 110% aggro-gain barrier.

Current Taunt:
Tank Taunts off Mage. (Tank now has 'forced' aggro)
Tank does zero additional threat to Mob.
Mage does zero additional threat to Mob.
Taunt wears off, Mob stays on Tank since the new Taunt gives him 'normal' aggro.
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#7 Praetorian

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 06:35 AM

Yep, all of the above is in Kenco's R&D post on threat. This change happened in one of the 1.11 minipatches, and I actually wouldn't be surprised if was made specifically because of the Four Horsemen. The fight would not be possible with pre-1.11 taunt.

#8 Derketo

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 07:18 AM

Yep, all of the above is in Kenco's R&D post on threat. This change happened in one of the 1.11 minipatches, and I actually wouldn't be surprised if was made specifically because of the Four Horsemen. The fight would not be possible with pre-1.11 taunt.

Do you have a link to this post? I've noticed some strange things going on with taunt, but hadnt been able to put my finger on what exactly had changed.
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#9 Whiteknight

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 07:45 AM

Kenco's thesis appears to have been dropped from the R&D forum when bliz changed over to the new forums.
If anyone has a copy of it, it would be cool if we could get it linked or quoted here.

#10 Ngita

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 07:54 AM

Funnily enough I came across this website a few hours ago. I assume it is current as all i did was bookmark it for future reference

http://evilempiregui...ides/kenco2.php

#11 Clockwork

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 09:39 AM

Taunt works the same on 4h as every other mob in the game. That being said they did change the taunt mechanic a patch, or minipatch back.

I'd like to believe this, but after having a hunter feign, get up, and promptly pull aggro off me, I don't think that's entirely correct for 4H. And he did this around 2 minutes into the fight.

#12 Whiteknight

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 09:41 AM

Thanks Ngita, that does indeed look current.


And as to the FD thing - weren't folk reporting bugs with aggro not being reset on battleres, FD, soulstone, vanish type stuff?

#13 Clockwork

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 09:43 AM

Thanks Ngita, that does indeed look current.


And as to the FD thing - weren't folk reporting bugs with aggro not being reset on battleres, FD, soulstone, vanish type stuff?

Well, that may explain that.

#14 red

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 09:56 AM

I haven't had any problems at all with aggro not resetting after a vanish, but I have heard people complain about it with soulstones and combat res.

#15 Mippo

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 10:40 AM

Contrary to the above posters, Taunt does work differently on the 4h encounter. The problem is that they did not code Mocking Blow and Challenging Shout to work in the same way and thus, the problems.

A perfect example is if you Mocking Blow and follow it up with a Taunt, the majority of the time when the Taunt icon wears off it will run after the previous tank, even if he is practically already at the next Horsemen.

Considering the way Taunt currently works, and that the other warrior wasn't even in range of the Horsemen when the Taunt icon was up to pull agro, how can you possibly explain how that Warrior got agro after the Taunt icon wears off if Taunt worked normally on the Four Horsemen encounter?

Another example is agro. Assuming Mocking Blow and Challenging Shout were not used, have you ever seen a Warrior pull agro on a Horsemen after the other tank successfully taunted it?

I do most of the tank swapping encounters for my guild, and I know the success rate on it. Certain tanks just forget to turn off their attack on time and end up agroing during the taunt, and retaining it after the Taunt icon wears off for the other tank. The tank that Taunts misses his attacks, the other tank isn't paying attention lands a sunder and a Revenge and it's unsuccessful.

I've never seen an unsuccessful swap after a successful Taunt by a tank on this encounter. If Taunt worked normally on this encounter, that would be pretty much impossible. The odds of every single warrior always turning off attack on time is practically 0.

Furthermore, take it one step further and TRY to pull agro after a successful Taunt. I've tried to, and I've never been able to whereas on every other boss in game, I can have the mob revert back to me if I want to. An additional X% of agro is not hard to overcome during the Taunt icon if you unload and the other tank has his attacks miss.

I'm pretty sure Blizzard knows that the swap is very important to the encounter and that the odds of so many Warriors successfully swapping that many times is pretty much not going to happen so yeah I think it's very likely they changed the way Taunt works on this one specific encounter.

Basically, I think each Horsemen has a separate list much like Patchwerk does for the Hateful Strike tank. The Horsemen list is simply capped at 1 person, and Taunt gets you on the list. What that means is that when the next tank comes up and Taunts, it knocks the previous Tank off the list which would result in a pretty smooth transition between Tanks. It's also possible the list has some bonus agro associated with it above and beyond what you would normally get from a Taunt.

The problem occurs in the fact that it appears ONLY Taunt gets you on the list (and the druid equivalent). Mocking Blow and Challenging Shout do not put you on that list so the "weird" agro occurs when Mocking Blow and Challenging Shout are used. Furthermore it appears using Mocking Blow or Challenging Shout prior to a Taunt has a good chance of that Taunt not working correctly and not getting you on the list.

If you asked your tanks which form of Taunt they used on a transition that "messed up" you'll likely find your answer. The easy solution is to just not use Mocking Blow or Challenging Shout at all and you'll likely see the abnormalities in the tank transitions vanish.

I think the reason they coded the list to only work from Taunt, and not Mocking Blow or Challenging Shout is because they intended for Taunts not to be resisted on the encounter and that aspect of the encounter is likely bugged.
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#16 Nemesis

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 11:13 AM

A perfect example is if you Mocking Blow and follow it up with a Taunt, the majority of the time when the Taunt icon wears off it will run after the previous tank, even if he is practically already at the next Horsemen.

I'm not sure on the mechanics but Mocking Blow forces the mob to attack you, wouldn't using Taunt during this period invalidate any threat gain? Since Taunt would check the mobs current target and give you his threat level (aka your own).

Considering the way Taunt currently works, and that the other warrior wasn't even in range of the Horsemen when the Taunt icon was up to pull agro, how can you possibly explain how that Warrior got agro after the Taunt icon wears off if Taunt worked normally on the Four Horsemen encounter?

Going further with the above (mine) interpretation of the interaction between Taunt and Mocking Blow, wouldn't it also be logical for the Horseman to go back to the warrior highest on his aggro list as soon as all effects that force him to attack a certain person wear off. Because the person he is attacking right now is somewhere really low on the actual threat list > at Mocking Blow threat + whatever you did in between mocking blow and taunt wearing off; which is probably less than the previous tank had

I've never seen an unsuccessful swap after a successful Taunt by a tank on this encounter. If Taunt worked normally on this encounter, that would be pretty much impossible. The odds of every single warrior always turning off attack on time is practically 0.

I think this could be explained by the changes to the Taunt mechanic in the last minipatch.
With the old taunt, yes, the new warrior had to make sure he overcame the 110% of the old warrior and any hits by this old warrior would make that harder and probably fuck it up. With the new Taunt he would keep aggro even if he did nothing (providing the old warrior didn't do anything either).

Furthermore, take it one step further and TRY to pull agro after a successful Taunt. I've tried to, and I've never been able to whereas on every other boss in game, I can have the mob revert back to me if I want to. An additional X% of agro is not hard to overcome during the Taunt icon if you unload and the other tank has his attacks miss.

Seems to be easily explained by the new taunt also. Previously all you had to do was stay ahead of the warrior that taunted, who had to get to 130% of your threat level to keep aggro after a taunt. New Taunt, new rules. However this should probably be tested a bit more, to see if there's a real difference between 4H and other bosses, POST PATCH. At this point old observations are probably moot.

I'm pretty sure Blizzard knows that the swap is very important to the encounter and that the odds of so many Warriors successfully swapping that many times is pretty much not going to happen so yeah I think it's very likely they changed the way Taunt works on this one specific encounter.

On top of that being a bitch to code, it seems more likely that they changed the behavior of Taunt altogether.

Basically, I think each Horsemen has a separate list much like Patchwerk does for the Hateful Strike tank. The Horsemen list is simply capped at 1 person, and Taunt gets you on the list. What that means is that when the next tank comes up and Taunts, it knocks the previous Tank off the list which would result in a pretty smooth transition between Tanks. It's also possible the list has some bonus agro associated with it above and beyond what you would normally get from a Taunt.
The problem occurs in the fact that it appears ONLY Taunt gets you on the list (and the druid equivalent). Mocking Blow and Challenging Shout do not put you on that list so the "weird" agro occurs when Mocking Blow and Challenging Shout are used. Furthermore it appears using Mocking Blow or Challenging Shout prior to a Taunt has a good chance of that Taunt not working correctly and not getting you on the list.
If you asked your tanks which form of Taunt they used on a transition that "messed up" you'll likely find your answer. The easy solution is to just not use Mocking Blow or Challenging Shout at all and you'll likely see the abnormalities in the tank transitions vanish.
I think the reason they coded the list to only work from Taunt, and not Mocking Blow or Challenging Shout is because they intended for Taunts not to be resisted on the encounter and that aspect of the encounter is likely bugged.

See above, if my interpretation of taunt and mocking blow interaction is correct then yes, using mocking blow prior to taunting would create problems. This has nothing to do with mocking blow or challenging shout not working correctly but with the changes to Taunt.
Don't compare Challenging Shout and Mocking Blow to Taunt, whilst they all force a mob to attack you the underlying mechanics are vastly different.
As it is right now both Challenging Shout and Mocking Blow give you a fixed amount of threat in addition to forcing a mob to attack you for a set period of time.
Taunt gives you an amount of threat equal to that of the person currently being attacked by the mob, then forces the mob to attack you . If someone breaks thru the 110% or 130% barrier before the Taunt icon wears off, the mobb goes to them when it does, otherwise it sticks to you.

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#17 Phoenix

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 11:36 AM

I'm pretty sure the answer above is correct. If you mocking blow/challenging shout then taunt whilst the debuff is up, what happens is the mob is forced to attack you by the mocking blow/challenging shout but those abilities, unlike taunt, don't raise your threat to the mob's previous target - they simply give you a small amount of threat.

When you then taunt it checks for who currently has aggro and gives you their threat - that person is going to be you so nothing changes except keeping the mob on you for the duration of the de-buff. As soon as that runs out the old tank half way across the room is 130% over your threat so off he trots.

The only way round it is to use mocking blow/challenging shout if your taunt gets resisted but don't re-taunt whilst the blow/shout de-buff is still up, wait for it to wear off. As soon as it wears off, the horseman's target will transfer to the old tank and then you can taunt and gain the old tank's threat value.

#18 Sticks

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 11:45 AM

I'm pretty sure the answer above is correct. If you mocking blow/challenging shout then taunt whilst the debuff is up, what happens is the mob is forced to attack you by the mocking blow/challenging shout but those abilities, unlike taunt, don't raise your threat to the mob's previous target - they simply give you a small amount of threat.

When you then taunt it checks for who currently has aggro and gives you their threat - that person is going to be you so nothing changes except keeping the mob on you for the duration of the de-buff. As soon as that runs out the old tank half way across the room is 130% over your threat so off he trots.

The only way round it is to use mocking blow/challenging shout if your taunt gets resisted but don't re-taunt whilst the blow/shout de-buff is still up, wait for it to wear off. As soon as it wears off, the horseman's target will transfer to the old tank and then you can taunt and gain the old tank's threat value.

This is the behaviour that I see on 4h and all other mobs that I use taunt on and have just assumed this was the reason for a while now. However, trying to land a taunt after mocking blow wears off and before it goes out of range on Australian ping is really not fun.

#19 Mippo

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 11:53 AM

It still has a high probability of running after the other tank if you Taunt after the Mocking Blow icon wears off so it has absolutely nothing to do with the interaction of Mocking Blow and Taunt.
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#20 Nemesis

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 12:37 PM

It still has a high probability of running after the other tank if you Taunt after the Mocking Blow icon wears off so it has absolutely nothing to do with the interaction of Mocking Blow and Taunt.

From a logical point of view, whats the most likely: Blizzard changing the entire mechanic for one single encounter even tho most of what you said was adressed and explained by the new Taunt implementation. OR Lag/changing debuffs pushing off a mocking blow icon while the mob is still under its effect and therefore messing up Taunt OR What I like to call human error.

Also 'high probability' and 'absolutely nothing' in the same sentence <shiver>
I assume you went and tested this in between my post and your last response?

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