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Can we talk about 4H agro yet?


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#21 Mippo

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 12:59 PM

It still has a high probability of running after the other tank if you Taunt after the Mocking Blow icon wears off so it has absolutely nothing to do with the interaction of Mocking Blow and Taunt.

From a logical point of view, whats the most likely: Blizzard changing the entire mechanic for one single encounter even tho most of what you said was adressed and explained by the new Taunt implementation. OR Lag/changing debuffs pushing off a mocking blow icon while the mob is still under its effect and therefore messing up Taunt OR What I like to call human error.

Also 'high probability' and 'absolutely nothing' in the same sentence <shiver>
I assume you went and tested this in between my post and your last response?

They don't have to change the way Taunt works to change the way it affects an encounter. They already have the capability to make a 2nd list on a mob as evidenced by Patchwerk. All they would have to do is apply the same coding to the Four Horsemen and change the variables of how the list works.

Casting "Taunt" puts on you on the list which is 1 person long. The next person to cast "Taunt" would take your place on the list. It's pretty simple, guarantees smooth transitions for the encounter, and doesn't require them "changing the entire mechanic".

And yes, I do think it's logical that they would do that. On an encounter where an unsuccessful swap can wipe a raid, it makes sense to add in coding that prevents that from happening. This addresses the agro aspect of the swap, the only problem is that they didn't implement the +chance to hit for Taunt to prevent Resists in which case the encounter would've worked perfectly.

I'm not exactly sure what is wrong with high probability and absolutely nothing in the same sentence.. It doesn't always happen so it's simply a high probability of happening and it happens regardless of when you cast Taunt and Mocking Blow so there is absolutely no correlation between the two. Maybe you speak another form of English?
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#22 Shik

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 01:06 PM

It would make life a lot easier for us if they decided to make all the 'taunt' abilities of warriors, druids and soon to be paladins actually work the same way.

Too much to ask though.

#23 Nemesis

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 01:12 PM

What you seem to be completely blind to is that Taunt WAS changed in a 1.11 mini-patch and shortly after the 4H got killed.
As Xi said, Taunt works on the 4H exactly like it would / should on every other boss in the game.
Smooth transitions are guaranteed by players taunting at the right time and not adding mocking blow the to equation, why bother with a secondary list?
So now Blizzard is coding encounters in ways that you can't even fuck up anymore? 'Hey unsuccessful tank swaps are wiping raids, lets code it so it doesnt happen anymore rather than making raids execute it better.' >> GG
So far everything you said/argued about can be perfectly explained within the limits of the new taunt mechanic, yet you keep insisting that they must have somehow recoded the 4H, coincidentally right when they recoded Taunt.
This second list, what does it entail, the person on the list always has aggro? In that case you could go taunt-autoattackoff and never lose aggro? I suggest someone gives it a test on their next 4H attempt; let a warrior taunt and do nothing while dps unloads. If the warrior never - ever loses aggro that would lend some credit to your secondary list theories.
I'm all for sticking to ones beliefs so I'll leave you to yours, personally I'm not a sucker for conspiracy theories or insisting the easiest explanation has to be wrong based on it being the easiest.

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#24 Mippo

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 02:06 PM

There is a huge difference even after the patch. The patch made it EASIER to retain agro after a Taunt, it did not make it a guarantee. You can still mess up a switch if the first Warrior is still agroing while the Taunt icon is active. It still works like that even after the 1.11 patch.

Prior to the 1.11 patch the Warrior that was Taunting had to surpass the 10% agro differential in order to retain agro after the Taunt icon wore off. After the 1.11 patch, they no longer need to surpass that 10% agro differential BUT if the Warrior that previously had agro surpasses the Taunting Warrior by 10%, it would still revert back to the original tank.

I will test it further to be absolutely sure, but that's not what I have seen from the Four Horsemen encounter. If I try to get agro during a Taunt on any mob in the game, I can do so depending on the difference in agro between myself and the other Warrior while the Taunt icon is active.

Even after the 1.11 patch, if the Warriors are not paying attention a mob can revert back after a successful taunt. The difference is that I have never seen it happen on the Four Horsemen encounter. Considering how many swaps are taking place, I find it highly coincedental that I see it happen regularly on other mobs, but not on the Four Horsemen despite the fact there are exponentially more occurences for it to occur on the 4h as opposed to other encounters.

Furthermore, there are certain abnormalities in how Taunt works that I have seen on the encounter, yet have not seen on any other encounter in game.

It's easy for you, and a raid leader that does not play a Warrior to chalk them up to "human error", but it's not so easy to do so when you are the one playing the Warrior and you know that there was no "human error".
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#25 Sticks

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 02:36 PM

We had 3 attempts in a row today where the horse went back to the old target after a successful taunt(read non resisted rather that the conventional meaning of success :( ). I don't know exactly why, but the tank in question swears blind that he didn't do anything that should have put the horse back on him, say extra shield slams or sunders after the taunt, so at very most it may have been 1 autoattack due to lag. So there may be some alternate mechanic on 4h, but I'm not really convinced yet.

#26 moz

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 02:46 PM

Even after the 1.11 patch, if the Warriors are not paying attention a mob can revert back after a successful taunt. The difference is that I have never seen it happen on the Four Horsemen encounter. Considering how many swaps are taking place, I find it highly coincedental that I see it happen regularly on other mobs, but not on the Four Horsemen despite the fact there are exponentially more occurences for it to occur on the 4h as opposed to other encounters.

No, the horsemen can indeed revert back after a successful taunt.

#27 Derketo

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 03:54 PM

It's pretty obvious taunt was changed in general, I'm not sure that anything was changed in addition to that for 4h.
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#28 Zagzil

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 04:26 PM

I've never seen an unsuccessful swap after a successful Taunt by a tank on this encounter. If Taunt worked normally on this encounter, that would be pretty much impossible. The odds of every single warrior always turning off attack on time is practically 0.

I've seen it happen multiple times, actually, where warriors didn't turn off auto attack and were slow to run out, then got aggro even when taunt was successful.

#29 Mippo

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 04:46 PM

Yes, it can revert back after a successful taunt which goes back to my original post. If you previously had a resist, used Mocking Blow or Challenging Shout, that's when I notice the mob goes back to a previous tank.

However, I've never seen it happen without one of the above happening first. Have you ever walked up to a Four Horsemen, successfully taunted on the first try, and had it revert back to the original tank?

Not taunting after a resist, not using Mocking Blow, not using Challenging Shout at all, simply walking up, hitting Taunt and it landing, and having it go back to the original tank afterwards?

There is a big difference between the two. I've used Challenging Shout in the past, maintained agro after Challenging Shout wore off, then a few seconds later when my Taunt was up again, used Taunt and after that Taunt wore off, had it run to the other tank that was almost at the next mob.

Challenging Shout was off for about 4 seconds and I had agro on the mob after it wore off, I hit Taunt while the other tank is already 20+ yards away, and had it go back to that tank when Taunt wore off......

If you watch it closely enough, there are specific examples like this that clearly do not work normally. When they do happen, most people chalk them up to "human error" but it's not. It clearly works differently the only question is, more specifically, how does Taunt work on the encounter. My guess is the list I mentioned in my other post but really, I have no clue the only thing I know is that it works differently then other encounters.
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#30 Praetorian

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 04:55 PM

However, I've never seen it happen without one of the above happening first. Have you ever walked up to a Four Horsemen, successfully taunted on the first try, and had it revert back to the original tank?

Yes. Very first transition, no Challenging or Mocking involved.

Tank A has Mograine. Tank B taunts. Tank A hits one autoattack. Tank B sunders and crits a Heroic Strike. Tank A moves away. Taunt wears off. Mograine runs after Tank A.

Yes, that one autoattack shouldn't have happened, but that still defies everything I know about taunt since 1.11, unless I have some deeper misconception.

#31 Mippo

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 05:27 PM

However, I've never seen it happen without one of the above happening first. Have you ever walked up to a Four Horsemen, successfully taunted on the first try, and had it revert back to the original tank?

Yes. Very first transition, no Challenging or Mocking involved.

Tank A has Mograine. Tank B taunts. Tank A hits one autoattack. Tank B sunders and crits a Heroic Strike. Tank A moves away. Taunt wears off. Mograine runs after Tank A.

Yes, that one autoattack shouldn't have happened, but that still defies everything I know about taunt since 1.11, unless I have some deeper misconception.

Well the very first taunt is quite a bit different because that can happen, and likely did, from simple overagro in the beginning of an encounter without having anything to do with the mechanics of Taunt on the encounter.

The way I think it works is this. Everyone still gets on the agro list normally, there is just a separate list for people using Taunt. When the next person Taunts, it replaces that person on the list, ie it wipes all agro for the previous tank generated by Taunt but they would still be on the agro list normally. Under most circumstances, there would be a huge gap in agro between the two tanks so there is practically no risk of the tanks messing up the tank swap.

Obviously that gap doesn't exist on the first transition so there is still the chance that the tank can overagro normally, regardless of the Taunt.

Here's another question to ask... Did Tank A previously Taunt the mob?

1) It could be that tank A never previously taunted the mob, so as I think the encounter works, Tank A's agro was never wiped since the list had not been established yet.

In addition I think there is a time limit on the list application. It's possible there might simply be a delay on the application to the list so if two Taunts land too close to one another, the second one won't register to get you onto the list which is why you occasionally have problems with Mocking Blow, letting it fall off, then Taunting whereas that would normally never be a problem on any other mob.

2) It's also possible Tank A had taunted too close to Tank B, so Tank B's Taunt did not replace the previous tank on the list.

As I said, it's all just speculation really but I am pretty convinced it does work differently, I just don't know how it works exactly.
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#32 spronk

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 06:32 PM

I wonder if the melee/ranged hate changes are affecting hate lists? As people swap from < 10 yards to > 10 yards perhaps a bug is causing threat lists to incorrectly get prioritized.

#33 Murgen

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 07:57 PM

solution to this thread: use 8 tanks in 6pc DN.

I wonder if the melee/ranged hate changes are affecting hate lists? As people swap from < 10 yards to > 10 yards perhaps a bug is causing threat lists to incorrectly get prioritized.

Sounds a lot like 'Onyxia is casting deep breath more this patch!'

#34 Lagomorph

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 08:24 PM

However, I've never seen it happen without one of the above happening first. Have you ever walked up to a Four Horsemen, successfully taunted on the first try, and had it revert back to the original tank?

Yes. Very first transition, no Challenging or Mocking involved.

Tank A has Mograine. Tank B taunts. Tank A hits one autoattack. Tank B sunders and crits a Heroic Strike. Tank A moves away. Taunt wears off. Mograine runs after Tank A.

Yes, that one autoattack shouldn't have happened, but that still defies everything I know about taunt since 1.11, unless I have some deeper misconception.

The idea of rage being threat and that causing the original tank to go over 110% couldn't be kicking in could it?

Doing math rules that out (I think)... the tank would have to be hit for about 2000 Threat worth of aggro, less an auto-attack; which assuming the 94.6 dmg->rage 5threat/rage posted earlier [ =19dmg/threat] the tank would have had to be hit for 38 thousand damage.
Subract 600 threat for an auto-attack, and it's 26,000 damage, maybe a demo shout/charge brings it down more - but I don't think your tank took 10-20K damage in those opening moments did he/she?

#35 Praetorian

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 08:26 PM

However, I've never seen it happen without one of the above happening first. Have you ever walked up to a Four Horsemen, successfully taunted on the first try, and had it revert back to the original tank?

Yes. Very first transition, no Challenging or Mocking involved.

Tank A has Mograine. Tank B taunts. Tank A hits one autoattack. Tank B sunders and crits a Heroic Strike. Tank A moves away. Taunt wears off. Mograine runs after Tank A.

Yes, that one autoattack shouldn't have happened, but that still defies everything I know about taunt since 1.11, unless I have some deeper misconception.

The idea of rage being threat and that causing the original tank to go over 110% couldn't be kicking in could it?

Doing math rules that out (I think)... the tank would have to be hit for about 2000 Threat worth of aggro, less an auto-attack; which assuming the 94.6 dmg->rage 5threat/rage posted earlier [ =19dmg/threat] the tank would have had to be hit for 38 thousand damage.
Subract 600 threat for an auto-attack, and it's 26,000 damage, maybe a demo shout/charge brings it down more - but I don't think your tank took 10-20K damage in those opening moments did he/she?

Getting rage from being hit doesn't generate threat.

Anyway, this isn't really a productive discussion beyond what's already been said. Maybe we're all paranoid nutcases, or maybe there is something there. If nothing else, the fact that more than a few people have noticed odd behavior suggests that there may be more to it. Or maybe not.




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