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#1 Erving

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 02:38 PM

I've seen this being referenced in a number of posts, but haven't been able to find a proper description of what it actually means. It seems like some of the things mentioned in the expansion includes phrases like: "Increases your Critical Strike Rating by 16" or something similar. What does the number mean, and how many 'rating points' are there in one percentage? Does it differ per level?

I could imagine a system where you would have something like (critical rating/level) = +crit%, so that the abovementioned +16 would mean +0,3% crit to a lvl 52 and a 0,26% to a lvl 60, but is the formula this easy?

#2 Exewut

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 02:43 PM

I don't see why they wouldn't make a lineair curve, making an exponential one would give huge numbers in higher lvl's and tax your cpu capacity for no reason atall

so to answer your question, yes it will most likely be something simple along the lines of (critical rating + x*your_level)/level mob = crit%

#3 Copernicus

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 03:38 PM

Crit rating has two objectives. The first, and most important, is to allow upgrades to gear while leveling. At level 60, the crit rating from a Blackhand's Breath will be worth 2% crit. It will be less at 70, while a new trinket might be available from questing that provides the equivalent of 2% crit to level 70 characters. It's unknown at the time how much crit rating will be needed at level 70 to equal 1% crit. It should scale lineraly for leveling purposes, beause of the way the ilvl formula works. Theoretically, that would make Blackhand's Breath worth about 1.71% crit at level 70.

The secondary objective is to allow fractional upgrades in gear. Right now, after 1% crit, the upgrade options is either more stats/attack power, or a ton of points sunk into another crit%. Allowing for the equivalent of 1.5% at level 70 allows for a wider variety of itemization.

I believe the rating will apply to all the current percentage based raw stats (dodge, parry, block, hit, crit, spell hit, and spell crit). It won't apply to talents. There's also a possibility that something like defense will also get a rating value, as tanks can currently "cap" their defense to avoid being critted.

#4 Kytrarewn

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 03:44 PM

The secondary objective is to allow fractional upgrades in gear. Right now, after 1% crit, the upgrade options is either more stats/attack power, or a ton of points sunk into another crit%. Allowing for the equivalent of 1.5% at level 70 allows for a wider variety of itemization.

I believe the rating will apply to all the current percentage based raw stats (dodge, parry, block, hit, crit, spell hit, and spell crit). It won't apply to talents. There's also a possibility that something like defense will also get a rating value, as tanks can currently "cap" their defense to avoid being critted.

Here's the thing, though... how will Rating work with fractional upgrades and the way that itemization costs increase exponentially.

At 60, 14CR = 1 crit. Now, they obviously can't flat out nerf existing items at level 60 (Defense nerf in 1.7 or 1.8 or whatever it was aside), so will existing items be hindered by the fact that, instead of having 2 points on the exponential scale, they now have to deal with being exponentialized 28 times for the same bonus?

Brings up some interesting questions, at the very least.
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#5 Erving

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 03:56 PM

I think one of the problems with the rating system will be in people who intentionally equip "low level" gear for a very specific bonus. Take, for example, scorch-spec mages decked in BWL/AQ40/Naxx-epics but still running around with [Eye of the Beast] because of the +2% spell crit bonus. If the +spellcrit bonus will be based on itemlevel (63, in this case), it will probably be worth holding on to until you get something better from a lvl65ish instance in Outlands. If, however, it's based on the approximate level people are when they receive the item (lvl59-60), it will quickly be replaced by something that, today, is probably marginally worse.

All in all, however, I like the idea. Making things like dodge, parry, hit (spell and melee), block, crit (spell & melee) based on fixed numbers that vary according to your own level (and, in the case of hit/resist, the level of the opponent as well), makes for a much more interesting experience and allows for gear to scale in a smoother way.

#6 Kalman

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 03:56 PM

Nah.

Since the calculation of value is ((stat*statmod)^1.5)^2/3, you can see that 2% crit costs the same under either system, it's simply a 'smoother' curve for the rating setup. Basically, the exponential portion is performed *after* the stat*statmod is totaled, and assuming 1% crit and 14 rating cost the same, a given amount of crit at 60 will cost the same under either system, nor will there be penalties for adding crit rating other than the standard diminishing returns for stacking one stat.
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#7 Copernicus

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 03:57 PM

The secondary objective is to allow fractional upgrades in gear. Right now, after 1% crit, the upgrade options is either more stats/attack power, or a ton of points sunk into another crit%. Allowing for the equivalent of 1.5% at level 70 allows for a wider variety of itemization.

I believe the rating will apply to all the current percentage based raw stats (dodge, parry, block, hit, crit, spell hit, and spell crit). It won't apply to talents. There's also a possibility that something like defense will also get a rating value, as tanks can currently "cap" their defense to avoid being critted.

Here's the thing, though... how will Rating work with fractional upgrades and the way that itemization costs increase exponentially.

At 60, 14CR = 1 crit. Now, they obviously can't flat out nerf existing items at level 60 (Defense nerf in 1.7 or 1.8 or whatever it was aside), so will existing items be hindered by the fact that, instead of having 2 points on the exponential scale, they now have to deal with being exponentialized 28 times for the same bonus?

Brings up some interesting questions, at the very least.

The relevant portion of the ilvl formula is (ModScale * ModValue)^1.5. ModScale for crit% right now is 3200. If ModScale for crit rate% is 200, it will work out the same for the math.

3200 * 1 = 3200 = 200 * 16
3200 * 2 = 6400 = 200 * 32


It will work the same way that 2 attack power = 1 strength in the current formula, no matter what the strength or attack power is.

On a side note, we'll probably see green items of crit/hit rating now. And low level blues that grant rating as well.

#8 Kalman

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 03:57 PM

I think one of the problems with the rating system will be in people who intentionally equip "low level" gear for a very specific bonus. Take, for example, scorch-spec mages decked in BWL/AQ40/Naxx-epics but still running around with [Eye of the Beast] because of the +2% spell crit bonus. If the +spellcrit bonus will be based on itemlevel (63, in this case), it will probably be worth holding on to until you get something better from a lvl65ish instance in Outlands. If, however, it's based on the approximate level people are when they receive the item (lvl59-60), it will quickly be replaced by something that, today, is probably marginally worse.

All in all, however, I like the idea. Making things like dodge, parry, hit (spell and melee), block, crit (spell & melee) based on fixed numbers that vary according to your own level (and, in the case of hit/resist, the level of the opponent as well), makes for a much more interesting experience and allows for gear to scale in a smoother way.

The whole point of the change is to make it so that there's no benefit to equipping lower level gear like that. A mage in full Naxx epics shouldn't be wearing a UBRS blue quest reward by preference.
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#9 Rabid Rob

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 04:13 PM

Basically, its a way of causing your gear to be nerfed as you level up, thus forcing you to go out and get new gear all over again. It also looks to be a way to keep crit inflation under control for PvP.

If "Resiliance" rating turns out to be an anti-crit ability, you can also expect to effectively lose 10% crit in PvP to other players Resiliance, which would actually help bring it better under control I think. But I don't really know what Resiliance is :)

#10 Copernicus

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 04:18 PM

Basically, its a way of causing your gear to be nerfed as you level up, thus forcing you to go out and get new gear all over again. It also looks to be a way to keep crit inflation under control for PvP.

I can't wait to hit 61 and watch my DPS go down.

#11 Gwaihir

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 04:53 PM

Remeber though, that it will probably scale with level, like weapon skill currently does. Currently, our spellbook crit is calculated against a level 60 mob. Against a level 63, it is lower, and against a level 50, it is higher.

This is already ingame, just level up once, and watch the crit in your spellbook go down. As your weapon skill increases to match your level, or you get a few more points af agi, your crit against same level mobs comes back up to what it was last elvel, and it goes up against lwer level stuff. A group of level 63s in naxx is in no way going to have less DPS, even if the "crit rating" in their spellbooks is lower than what it was at 60.

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#12 Rabid Rob

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 05:27 PM

Your crit rating from stats goes down already as you level, yes. The rating system means the crit contribution from your items will also go down as you level, so you will in the expac see your crit rating go down at an ever accelerating rate, at least until you can start to get upgrades.

However, to provide exaples, your DPs vs a 63 as level 61 instead of 60 should be significantly improved, but your DPS vs lvl +3 when 61 vs 60 should be decaying faster than under the current system.

As a hunter, since I can hit higher level mobs very reliably, I expect to be able to easily grind on (non-elite) mobs +5 levels above me, maybe more (hmm... I've been saving up a Biznick, I wonder how many levels +11 or +14 tohit would let me get away with). The rating system should increase the decay in my damage vs. higher level mobs as well as increasing decay from levelling up, thus making it harder for a well geared hunter to farm significantly above his level.

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 07:44 PM

Based on observations from people I've talked to that are playing the alpha, your 60 gear's power decays really fast. One warrior (With Tier 2/2.5 gear) mentioned that even level 60 mobs are getting progressively harder as he levels due to his gear power dropping so fast.

I have seen green leather quest rewards immediately obtainable in Outlands that have higher crit rating and attack power than Bloodfang has when converted to the Crit Rating system.

I suspect the Blue comment a while back about tier 3 epics being a laughing joke at 70 was more accurate than I was originally inclined to believe. As always, this is this is all Alpha stuff so could still be getting tuned.

#14 Kalman

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 07:47 PM

1, .92, .87, .81, .75

60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65.

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#15 Karakas

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 08:44 PM

Based on observations from people I've talked to that are playing the alpha, your 60 gear's power decays really fast. One warrior (With Tier 2/2.5 gear) mentioned that even level 60 mobs are getting progressively harder as he levels due to his gear power dropping so fast.

I have seen green leather quest rewards immediately obtainable in Outlands that have higher crit rating and attack power than Bloodfang has when converted to the Crit Rating system.

I suspect the Blue comment a while back about tier 3 epics being a laughing joke at 70 was more accurate than I was originally inclined to believe. As always, this is this is all Alpha stuff so could still be getting tuned.

That feels wrong to me. At the very least in the same gear your stats vs. same lvl mobs should remain constant as you level up. When added with the fact that you are gaining stats/talent points as you level, mobs of the same base level should be getting slightly easier, not harder.

Making them harder is just a fucked up attempt at overcompensating for mudflation.

#16 Aphyrax

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 10:39 PM

Will there be a spell damage rating as well? If not, casters would not be affected as much as other classes.

#17 Danette

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 10:47 PM

Will there be a spell damage rating as well? If not, casters would not be affected as much as other classes.

Er, no. Spelldamage is linear progression, it doesn't exponentially scale in the way that % based stats do. What you're saying would be the same as saying that without an AP rating (which there isn't) hunters rogues and warriors won't be affected as much

#18 Starks

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 10:49 PM

Will there be a spell damage rating as well? If not, casters would not be affected as much as other classes.

No spell damage, but there will be a Spell Hit Rating and Spell Crit Rating.

#19 Aphyrax

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 10:56 PM

Will there be a spell damage rating as well? If not, casters would not be affected as much as other classes.

Er, no. Spelldamage is linear progression, it doesn't exponentially scale in the way that % based stats do. What you're saying would be the same as saying that without an AP rating (which there isn't) hunters rogues and warriors won't be affected as much

It is somewhat different for casters. We gain by far most of our damage increase from spell damage. We gain very little from INT and have lower crit rates too.

That actually hurts us with the current itemization formula since having one mod stacked costs more than spreading out the effect over multiple mods. Hence the caster complaints about itemization. However, it will help us in the expasion. Frost mages can have 11% to hit and arcane 10% from talents alone (which dont scale down). So we will not miss much by having little to hit on gear. In PvP, to hit on gear is outright useless. By the same token, a frost mage is not very crit dependent. Very few if any frost mages stack crit on gear.

Thus, this change will have virtually no impact on frost mages. It will have more impact on fire, but still a lot less than on say rogues or warriors. I guess that is payback for having had crappy itemization (we didnt even have a to hit mod the first 9 months) for the longest time.

#20 Schnappi

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 11:04 PM

That feels wrong to me. At the very least in the same gear your stats vs. same lvl mobs should remain constant as you level up. When added with the fact that you are gaining stats/talent points as you level, mobs of the same base level should be getting slightly easier, not harder.

Making them harder is just a fucked up attempt at overcompensating for mudflation.

Do you kill equal lvl mobs equally easy on lvl 60 as on lvl 18? If you did you could use blackened defias leather for the entire levelling race ;)




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