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#21 Copernicus

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 11:19 PM

That feels wrong to me. At the very least in the same gear your stats vs. same lvl mobs should remain constant as you level up. When added with the fact that you are gaining stats/talent points as you level, mobs of the same base level should be getting slightly easier, not harder.

Making them harder is just a fucked up attempt at overcompensating for mudflation.

Do you kill equal lvl mobs equally easy on lvl 60 as on lvl 18? If you did you could use blackened defias leather for the entire levelling race ;)

That's not what's happening, supposedly.

Various rating abilities (crit% being the most important one) are apparently based off of the character's level (and not the monster's). So when I level from 60 to 61, I'll gain 1 talent point, no new spells, and lose crit rating. Technically, I'll gain hit% to the point where I'll always hit... which wastes even more points from my current gear.

To give an example - I currently have 10% crit from gear. After leveling, I'll have 9.2% crit from gear, with no gains from anything else.



It is somewhat different for casters. We gain by far most of our damage increase from spell damage. We gain very little from INT and have lower crit rates too.

That actually hurts us with the current itemization formula since having one mod stacked costs more than spreading out the effect over multiple mods. Hence the caster complaints about itemization. However, it will help us in the expasion. Frost mages can have 11% to hit and arcane 10% from talents alone (which dont scale down). So we will not miss much by having little to hit on gear. In PvP, to hit on gear is outright useless. By the same token, a frost mage is not very crit dependent. Very few if any frost mages stack crit on gear.

Thus, this change will have virtually no impact on frost mages. It will have more impact on fire, but still a lot less than on say rogues or warriors. I guess that is payback for having had crappy itemization (we didnt even have a to hit mod the first 9 months) for the longest time.

This change does zero by the time people finish leveling. When we hit 70, people will have about the same crit percent that they currently have. All it does is quickly outdate level 60 gear... surprisingly fast if reports are accurate.

#22 Aphyrax

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 11:22 PM

This change does zero by the time people finish leveling. When we hit 70, people will have about the same crit percent that they currently have. All it does is quickly outdate level 60 gear... surprisingly fast if reports are accurate.

Yes, but my point is that casters - frost mages specifically - will be much less affected by the accelerated gear deprication because they do not rely much on any of the mods that are now rated to begin with.

#23 Rabid Rob

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 11:32 PM

1, .92, .87, .81, .75

60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65.

Little birdies fly into my computer.

hmm... 7% loss per level?

I'm going to cry if it's really that bad.

#24 Jaerel

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 11:53 PM

<snip>
That's not what's happening, supposedly.

Various rating abilities (crit% being the most important one) are apparently based off of the character's level (and not the monster's). So when I level from 60 to 61, I'll gain 1 talent point, no new spells, and lose crit rating. Technically, I'll gain hit% to the point where I'll always hit... which wastes even more points from my current gear.

To give an example - I currently have 10% crit from gear. After leveling, I'll have 9.2% crit from gear, with no gains from anything else.

I suspect crit rating is just a distilled version of crit similar to how you gain crit from agility and intellect. In that context:

At level 60, your converted crit rating will give you 10% crit against level 60 targets.
That same crit rating will give you 9.2% crit against level 61 targets (using the numbers from the example).

At level 61, your converted crit rating will give you 10% crit against level 60 targets.
That same crit rating will give you 9.2% crit against level 61 targets.

Your gear isn't getting nerfed, you're fighting more advanced enemies with the same old gear. It's been that way for melee classes forever actually, as you level, your crit rate progressively goes down, not because your damage potential is decreased, but because the tooltips are done relative to an equivalent level mob.

#25 Kalman

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 06:02 AM

1, .92, .87, .81, .75

60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65.

Little birdies fly into my computer.

hmm... 7% loss per level?

I'm going to cry if it's really that bad.

It is that bad at current time, unless I'm being lied to. Which I'm pretty sure I'm not.
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#26 Praetorian

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 06:04 AM

That's not unreasonable. So, if that's right, at that rate a Blackhand's Breadth would be 1% crit in the hands of a level 70, 1.5% for a level 65. It'll encourage a lot of gear churn, but that's fine. It gives Blizzard a chance to get some of their scaling mechanics right this time around. The alternative would be a game full of hit-capped people and uncrittable tanks at which point you might as well get rid of stats like +hit and +def entirely.

#27 enshula

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 07:39 AM

Yep it could be a very good change. Will be interisting whether pre expansion items start at 81% effectiveness from kaubels formula on +3 mobs (and therefore stay at 100% effectiveness when farming level 60's as a 65) or start at 100% effectiveness even if we want to try and grind +5 mobs then immediately get lowered to 92% once we are grinding the same mobs but they are now only +4.

#28 Chicken

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 09:16 AM

If Blizzard is sensible it'll be your crit rating versus the mobs resilience, and the mobs resilience is a constant so your chance to crit on the tooltip might change, your chance to crit mobs of a certain level doesn't. The other way around would just be silly and take away some reward from levelling.

"Woot, ding! ... Hey, why am I suddenly weaker?"

#29 Copernicus

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 12:13 PM

Mage's aura from Atiesh isn't looking too hot now. :(

#30 Harem

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 01:13 PM

I think you guys are looking at this the wrong way. When you were level 20, a rogue could find an item with 5 agility, and it would be great. At 40, 10 agility would be good, because it'd be more AP and just generally better for the rogue. Hed do more damage with it than before. However, with crit, there are caps. If you want to improve on blackhand's, you need to give three or four crit. If all items had to scale this way, you would have situations where crit was the norm, and hits were the exception. That's not really the best way to go about it. I would speculate that rating scales not with your level, but the targets level, allowing something similar to higher level mobs having more hp so you need more AP to kill them in a reasonable amount of time.
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#31 Harem

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 01:16 PM

Double post, sorry
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#32 RK

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 02:26 PM

Mage's aura from Atiesh isn't looking too hot now. :(

I strongly suspect that Atiesh will be exempted from the general changeover to "rating". The teleport ability indicates that Blizzard is aware that the vast majority of Atieshes will be created post-expansion or very very close to before the expansion; I don't think it's intended to be completely obsoleted within three months, but rather a prize that will still be strong in the initial level 70 raids.

The other reason to think that is simply that "orange" is still a major buzz point, especially as Atiesh was the long-awaited caster legendary, but they can only keep going back to that well if "orange" remains special. Flushing the caster legendary away within 3 months seems counter-productive.

#33 Rabid Rob

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 05:26 PM

OK I'm crying now. Well, this is what I'm telling folks so the can freak out now not later, and prepare:

First off, some of you when you see this are gonna freak out, scream bloody murder etc etc... Well, to fight mudflation, they gotta do this, and to stop us from having 50% crit at lvl 70, and finally, to give us incentive to get gear sooner rather than later. I really don't see any way to get around doing something like this, it'll hurt at first, but pay off later.

Leaked ALPHA info:
Crit bonus Level of player:
1 60
.92 61
.87 62
.81 63
.75 64

So it appears to be a steady .07 decrease in effectiveness per level, assuming blizz's usual rounding oddness. The 1% to crit gets converted to a crit rating of, say, 100. That stays constant, but the ammount of crit rating required to get 1% crit bonus increases enough each level to chop off .07 crit per level.

This means items with stats converted to the rating system will decay in effectiveness faster than oher items.

Stats that I know are being converted to ratings:
tohit - crit - spell tohit - spell crit

Stats that I haven't seen confirmed as being converted yet (but I bet they are!):
parry - dodge - defense (I think this is the new "resilience" rating)

Yeah... warriors get the worst of it I think.

An item example:
Don Julio's Band
11 stamina
1 crit
1 tohit
16 attack power

This item has 2 abilities that are decaying as I level. Assuming I don't respec to Lightning Reflexes, it'll be outmoded by an Agi ring I have at level 61. At level 64 it'll have lost 25% off both the crit and tohit, making other stat based epics it once outshined quite superior.

So be prepared! For the expac, the items that will last the longest will be the non-rating converted ones. Strong rating gear will give a boost for the first few levels, but then you'll want those stats.

#34 Kalman

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 05:27 PM

Rob: Remember that as you level, the amount of agility required per point of crit also increases. *Probably* not as quickly, but who's to say?
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#35 probiscus

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 05:36 PM

Erm, I've mentioned this before, but FWIW one of my friends who works QA for Blizz has indicated that a lvl70 hunter "agility spec'd" (whatever that means) could approach 50% crit. I found this out probably 4-5 months ago while drunk at a party, so obviously much has changed, but the fact that they were toying around with those kinds of crit levels is interesting.

#36 Rabid Rob

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 06:07 PM

Kalman:
Yeah, but us evil hunters get 2 RAP for each Agi, and with LR, our Agi pool is hooooge... leading up to probiscus' comment :)

With current talents, 3000 RAP and 50% crit is well within reason given current gear + implied upgrades along the way + buffs. Tier 4 epix should make it very very easy, the new buffs that are coming out, and new talents... yeah. Hunters will be critting > 50% in raids.

#37 Fizil

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 06:13 PM

So is the general consensus is that the Rating -> Percentage conversion depends only on your own level? While it seems like it would make more sense based on the mobs level, I am not sure how that would work with the Haste Rating, which I assume is replacing attack speed mods (as few as there are). It would just seems wrong for a Haste Rating to depend on anything besides your own level.....

#38 Kalman

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 06:15 PM

Rating -> Percentage is dependent solely on your own level from the information I've gotten. If you want an in-game example to compare it to, think of the way Agi -> Crit changes for melee classes as they level.

Rob, I doubt hunters will see 50% crit, given that only Karazhan+ gear is quoted as being an improvement over Naxx gear, and Naxx gear won't allow 50% crit as is, even before it begins to scale down with level.
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#39 Nite_Moogle

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 06:20 PM

I guess I can't see why people are all that shocked that their gear with ilvl less than 70 would get replaced on the way to level 70. Don Julio's is a level 65 item. Tier 1 gear is ilvl 66. Tier 2 is ilvl 76, so you will probably keep a lot of that gear or better until you start picking up epics at level 70. Where's the surprise in that?

Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.


#40 Fizil

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 06:25 PM

Well that depends somewhat Nite_Moogle. While likely AP and +damage will keep Tier2/3 gear viable through 70, converted Crit/Hit/etc... ratings may be scaled up to be Level 70 appropriate, or they may just remain at the proper values for level 60 gear. I am not familiar enough with melee/Hunter scaling to know if that would seriously gimp their gear, it doesn't have that much of an effect on Caster gear.




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