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Managing debuffs, how do YOU do it? The warlock v fire mage problem


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#21 Lokoki

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 10:50 PM

Raid-buffed, a hemo rogues Rupture can hit 100 DPS.

Most other rogues shouldn't generally be using Rupture anyway.

(Note: this is neither in favor of nor against Rupture usage, simply pointing out that Rupture improved significantly w/ 1.12)

Whollistic perspective though. That hemo rogue has the opportunity to use eviscerate instead. Not sure what the dps is like on the new eviscerate rank, but hypothetically let's say it's 80dps. That means the DoT is then only worth 20dps, so it's more effective to give that debuff slot to someone else.

The same can be done with any skill/talent. You could say a warlock would be better off casting Searing Pain than Immolation, or that a warrior would be better off specing Improved Heroic Strike than Deep Wounds. I'm not saying that either are viable just that the same can apply to others, as well.

#22 Tempestra

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 10:52 PM

Frost mages shouldn't be coming close to fire mages in a straight nuke-fight, given equal gear, ability and level of "trying." They shouldn't even be sniffing the primary ignite holder. I'm pretty sure that fire mages make their debuff slots count.

#23 Quigon

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 10:52 PM

Mortal strike shouldn't be up there IMO. Nor should winter's chill if you're maximizing your mages.

Some of those debuffs are just unrealistic with the deep wounds spam.
I think a previous poster said it best in that the warlock isnt' going to be able to use all their DoTs. Theres ISB and all sorts of nonsense that will be up there knocking stuff off.

I think you need to look at this from a practical standpoint:

Sunder, demo, Curses... stuff that increases raid DPS
Everything else minimize, so the ignite doesn't fall off.
Maybe that means no more dots for warlocks?

#24 Kasi

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 10:52 PM

Corrent Lokoki, but the question is not whether rupture or rip is better than corruption, it is if either is better than eviscerate/ferocious bite plus corruption. Not sure those dots are better than corruption, but I'm pretty sure overall raid dps is higher with the second.

#25 Bibdy

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 10:57 PM

Nightfall increases DPS by a VERY small margin. Its essentially 1 second off a Shadowbolt about once a minute.

On the other hand Nightfall is SUPER HAPPY MEGA FUN. The number of times I've blindly run straight into shadow vulnerable Chromaggus and caught an ignite flesh just to get a Nightfall proc off...JOY!

Ignite takes a LOT more than 1 debuff slot to enable and maintain. First off, those Fireballs leave DOTs. Really, really useless DOTs which they themselves can knock off an Ignite. Second of all, you need to leave a 'buffer zone' in the debuff slots to ensure that your 'zomg 8k ignite' isn't going to get bumped off by proc-based debuff applications like deep wounds or Improved Shadowbolt. This is because Ignite is low on priority. They probably haven't increased its priority yet because they don't want those massive ignites ticking for very long. This is probably more advantageous than a hinderance because it equates to more aggro on one guy and potential pulling of aggro. Very high DPS has its drawbacks...

We had a fire mage (who wasn't specced Burning Soul for whatever reason) continuously pulling aggro through 4k Ignites. Because the output DPS of a corpse is somewhere around the region of zero point nothingty zilch, I was not impressed.
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#26 Trindade

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 11:04 PM

Mortal strike shouldn't be up there IMO. Nor should winter's chill if you're maximizing your mages.

Some of those debuffs are just unrealistic with the deep wounds spam.

Mmm. OK, so you bring 0 frost mages to HF raids? How do you control fights where you need to ae without imp blizzard then?

We currently run 3 frost mages, 3 fire mages.

Again, it's only our off-tanks spec'd 31/5/15 that carry MS. Our fury warriors all avoid the impale line. Telling those off tanks to respec to drop deep wounds won't be much of an issue, I just posed it as an example stupid debuff effect that comes up from talents.

#27 Fizil

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 11:11 PM

The same can be done with any skill/talent. You could say a warlock would be better off casting Searing Pain than Immolation, or that a warrior would be better off specing Improved Heroic Strike than Deep Wounds. I'm not saying that either are viable just that the same can apply to others, as well.

It is not quite equivalent. Warlocks are very mana inefficient nuke-wise. It isn't simply a question of doing 1400 damage with Corruption versus doing 1000 damage with Shadow Bolt, it is a question of doing 1400 damage for 340 mana versus doing 1000 damage for 380 mana. While we can Life Tap, this still cuts into our DPS, and leaches healer mana, so mana efficiency is still a concern for Warlocks in long fights.

The counterpoint that Eviscerate costs 10 more energy than Rupture may be valid, but frankly with the differences in how mana and energy work, I don't know how to make a direct comparison.

Anyway, in DPS sensitive fights, having more than a couple Warlock DoTs up is somewhat counterproductive. Hopefully the 40 debuff limit in the expansion fully fixes that problem.

#28 Quigon

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 11:23 PM

Mortal strike shouldn't be up there IMO. Nor should winter's chill if you're maximizing your mages.

Some of those debuffs are just unrealistic with the deep wounds spam.

Mmm. OK, so you bring 0 frost mages to HF raids? How do you control fights where you need to ae without imp blizzard then?

We currently run 3 frost mages, 3 fire mages.

Again, it's only our off-tanks spec'd 31/5/15 that carry MS. Our fury warriors all avoid the impale line. Telling those off tanks to respec to drop deep wounds won't be much of an issue, I just posed it as an example stupid debuff effect that comes up from talents.

We just do everything as a team basically... when we want to optimize for something, we pay to spec that way. We went full fire mage spec a while back, and have never turned back. So frost isn't even an issue anymore... mages work so synergistically with fire.

What fight incidently, requires improved blizzard? I'm not aware of a single one. AE'ing is generally easy right? I'm willing to bet moving those last 3 frost mages to fire will improve your OVERALL dps rather significantly, especially on thaddius and loatheb.

As for MS - and offtanks. Our offtanks seem to do fine with pure fury builds I guess... we have 2 protection main tanks, and the rest are full fury. Isn't fury leagues better in dps anyway?

#29 Lokoki

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 11:24 PM

Anyway, in DPS sensitive fights, having more than a couple Warlock DoTs up is somewhat counterproductive. Hopefully the 40 debuff limit in the expansion fully fixes that problem.

Coupled with reduced raid sizes, it should be much better.

#30 Zoner

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 11:34 PM

Most of those debuffs listed are not knocked off by dots ever. A lot of them have short durations and they merely expire. Deep wounds (and I think Fireball dots) are also set as 'extra low' priority, meaning if you see them up on a mob, it means there is room for stronger stuff like corruption, as those are what will be knocked off if you cast one.

#31 Copernicus

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 11:46 PM

Fireball spam is about 100 DPS more than scorch spam.

Our debuff list is...

1. Curse of Elements
2. Curse of Recklessness
3. Curse of Shadows (only if 3 or more warlocks)
4. Sunder Armor
5. Faerie Fire
6. Demoralizing Shout
7. Thunderclap
8. Judgement of Wisdom
9. Fire Vulnerability
10. Gift of Arthas

Those are the only ones we actually care about. We don't really reserve slots for random DoTs.


BTW, the real solution to warlcoks complaining about Fireball knocking off their DoTs is to bring more fire mages and less warlocks. :P

#32 Bibdy

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 11:56 PM

Or boot those Mages and get more Warlocks and Shadow Priests! You can never have too many Curse of Dooms.
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#33 Althor

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 12:19 AM

For all the people saying that Rupture does over 100 dps....

How?

As far as I'm aware the current 5 point Rupture rank 6 does 800 + 0.24*AP dmg over 16 seconds.

It ticks every 2 seconds. 8 ticks.

Thus with 1600 AP for example it would do 800 + 0.24*1600 = 1184 dmg over 16 seconds.
Or 148 per tick. Which is 74 dps.

With Improved Rupture it would do 158 per tick which is 79dps.

My Shadow Word: Pain does 135 dps not counting Imp. Shadowbolt.
Warlock dots aren't too far behind.

How exactly is Rupture worth it?

I get the impression that Rogues are looking at the amount their Rupture's tick for and assuming that shows its DPS. Which it doesn't.

#34 JoltColaOfEvil

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 01:06 AM

What fight incidently, requires improved blizzard? I'm not aware of a single one. AE'ing is generally easy right?

I specced 2/3 imp blizzard back in the day to help with Nef phase 1. I finally respecced out of that about a month ago. I have experienced no other raid encounter where it's helpful to that degree (i.e. worth the points).

#35 Kalman

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 01:40 AM

For all the people saying that Rupture does over 100 dps....

How?

As far as I'm aware the current 5 point Rupture rank 6 does 800 + 0.24*AP dmg over 16 seconds.

It ticks every 2 seconds. 8 ticks.

Thus with 1600 AP for example it would do 800 + 0.24*1600 = 1184 dmg over 16 seconds.
Or 148 per tick. Which is 74 dps.

With Improved Rupture it would do 158 per tick which is 79dps.

My Shadow Word: Pain does 135 dps not counting Imp. Shadowbolt.
Warlock dots aren't too far behind.

How exactly is Rupture worth it?

I get the impression that Rogues are looking at the amount their Rupture's tick for and assuming that shows its DPS. Which it doesn't.

Serrated Blades boosts your rupture damage by 30%.

(800 + .24*1800)*1.3/16 = 100.1

Now remember that a rogue with Improved Rupture is probably 21/0/30 Deadliness/Hemo specced, and may well have >2k attack power.
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#36 Trindade

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 02:42 AM

What fight incidently, requires improved blizzard? I'm not aware of a single one. AE'ing is generally easy right? I'm willing to bet moving those last 3 frost mages to fire will improve your OVERALL dps rather significantly, especially on thaddius and loatheb.

Maybe we live with too many crutches.

We can't stand fighting the mobs that heal without MS (true it's all on farm, but eh, it just makes life easier and those warriors have poor dps without putting it on).

We lose a lot of people needlessly when we don't have imp Blizzard. Just to stupid stuff like the little bug adds when we're clearing AQ trash, or the corpse scarabs on anub. Can do without, but people end up dying.

Our frost mages also hate fire and aren't really geared for it. Their focus has been spell hit and high spellpower, and as such have relatively lower spell crit. The mages we have that are fire by choice have always had a gear focus for higher spell crit at the cost of slightly lower spellpower. Also, we did try all fire for a week or two, and the frost mages were just really unhappy. They didn't enjoy the spec or playstyle, found their survival rates were greatly diminished (due to loss of defensive crutches in frost), and the meters didn't reflect any justification for forcing them to stay fire (when I say this, I mean, take the sum dps of all your mages divide it by the number of mages and find an average. We found the average to be lower than frost, though the mages we have who remain frost are our highest lifetime DKP earners for that class, which would go a ways to explaining that).

I note from this thread http://forums.elitis...pic.php?id=7331 that EJ still had frost mages when they first killed patchwerk.

Is this still the case for you guys? If you've switched to fire, how do the numbers for your frost and fire mages compare now?

edit: added thingy about dkp.

#37 Northerner

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 04:32 AM

A properly constructed ignite stack takes a little bit of time and a fair amount of co-ordination and awareness. Ideally you start combustion (three mages or so preferably) and build until you are at Combustion level 3 to 6 (without using more than one charge ideally) by just scorching or fireballing if you are concerned with wasting charges. Of course you must be sure to apply the debuff and more importantly it also preps each mage to have at least a 50-80% crit rate for the real stack build, which must be built before the imp scorch stack lapses (~25 seconds after you start). Then you let that mini-stack fall off and build the stack you want to roll from trinketted fireballs or even pyros if you have weird specced people. To do so reliably with only fireballs I think you'd want four fire mages but that's just what I've seen, not based on any math at all in this case. Sometimes people slack after all. As soon as it hits five, you fireblast and scorch-spam to roll it as long as you can. With only three mages you will want pretty high crit rates to keep it up for any length of time but such is life.

I sometimes wonder if it is really worth building 'perfect' stacks for a lot of fights though to be honest, as often the owning mage will need to call for a lapse anyhow once aggro builds too insanely. Just rolling away on more random stacks is often enough of a dps perk without the real danger of constantly rolling a really big stack although of course it is a fraction of the damage potential of riding that one big wave. As well, setting up the monster is of course costing you a small amount of damage during the lapse phase as some mages may well be sitting idle 10 or more seconds while prepping. Hopefully not but it can happen. Play around with it if you have some fire mages though and see if you like the results in terms of raid dps.

EDIT: On the fire versus frost front, a lot of the problem is that frost really just looks better on trash and fights that involve periodic spawns. It isn't exactly really doing a ton more damage (there is a lot of wasted damage when a 2.8k frostbolt gets a killing blow) but it sure looks nice when your crits are factored immediately and you always personally get credit for the damage produced. Ignite stacks are garbage on trash as it simply doesn't live long enough. They are also pretty useless on fights where you need to leave and return from the main target a lot, and although WC suffers the same fate as imp scorch unless it's refreshed occasionally frost doesn't have the ignite loss issues. Still, fire should on paper and from my own raid parses simply dominate frost in AQ/Naxx. If your mages hate the playstyle though then there is no point in pushing it at all really and frost is far from gimped entirely. I do still debate the overall usefulness of fire's increased damage versus frost's increased control anyhow... but my heart is in the damage.

#38 Sancus

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 05:11 AM

We had a fire mage (who wasn't specced Burning Soul for whatever reason)

I wouldn't be impressed by a blatantly incompetent player either. The fact of the matter, however, is that having all your mages spec fire significantly increases the dps of the raid in basically every case, hence why people do it.

There is quite a big difference between one fire mage who doesn't even know what to spec, and 7 using coordinated Combustions, however.

Also, Fireball doesn't knock stuff off, Scorch does. Fireball is one dot every 3 seconds. Restacking Fire Vulnerability(or shadow weaving, or any stacking debuff) wipes a debuff slot completely, every 1.5 seconds. No, I don't know why a stacked debuff in one slot wipes another slot and puts nothing in it, but it does.

a lot of the problem is that frost really just looks better on trash and fights that involve periodic spawns.

Anyone including trash on their damage meters really shouldn't be using that as a measure of comparative dps ever. The simple fact is that trash dps doesn't matter in the slightest, since trash is trivial. You optimize for the fights where dps is required to kill the mob.
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#39 Omentuva

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 06:07 AM

Well, apart from the occasional ignite train. (We had a mage pull aggro with what was in total a 15k Ignite over 5 ticks on Anub's adds, fueling FTW.), Fire is way more damage. We've essentially got a core of 6, 2 of which were always Fire, 3 of which respecced in the last 1.5 month and 1 is atm Elemental. The respeccers went for the 1x/3x/3 build and it was an insane DPS increase. Yes, even if you are alliance with BoS and two TF tanks, I'd still spec Burning Soul. I've personally got 17/31/3 with Imp Scorch in the mix, it helps the damage a lot. Debuffs can be tedious at times, but then again, Hunters in my guild are at times fond of Serpent Sting...

#40 Quixotic

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 06:15 AM

What fight incidently, requires improved blizzard? I'm not aware of a single one. AE'ing is generally easy right? I'm willing to bet moving those last 3 frost mages to fire will improve your OVERALL dps rather significantly, especially on thaddius and loatheb.

Maybe we live with too many crutches.

We can't stand fighting the mobs that heal without MS (true it's all on farm, but eh, it just makes life easier and those warriors have poor dps without putting it on).

We lose a lot of people needlessly when we don't have imp Blizzard. Just to stupid stuff like the little bug adds when we're clearing AQ trash, or the corpse scarabs on anub. Can do without, but people end up dying.

Our frost mages also hate fire and aren't really geared for it. Their focus has been spell hit and high spellpower, and as such have relatively lower spell crit. The mages we have that are fire by choice have always had a gear focus for higher spell crit at the cost of slightly lower spellpower. Also, we did try all fire for a week or two, and the frost mages were just really unhappy. They didn't enjoy the spec or playstyle, found their survival rates were greatly diminished (due to loss of defensive crutches in frost), and the meters didn't reflect any justification for forcing them to stay fire (when I say this, I mean, take the sum dps of all your mages divide it by the number of mages and find an average. We found the average to be lower than frost, though the mages we have who remain frost are our highest lifetime DKP earners for that class, which would go a ways to explaining that).

I note from this thread http://forums.elitis...pic.php?id=7331 that EJ still had frost mages when they first killed patchwerk.

Is this still the case for you guys? If you've switched to fire, how do the numbers for your frost and fire mages compare now?

edit: added thingy about dkp.

I honestly don't feel the loss of ice block on any fight where you play smart. The meters of mages as a whole have increased by a lot, and we have every mage as fire now.

On our first patchwerk kill we had only one fire mage, but I highly doubt we will go back. Too many fights are DPS required such as Loatheb and Thaddius that rolling ignites shine on.




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