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Managing debuffs, how do YOU do it? The warlock v fire mage problem


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#41 Moos3d

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 07:25 AM

We usually just bring a lot of mages and if it's a fight that we really want the optimal class spread on we will drop warlocks and bring in another class if they will be better DPS. Like you said, there really isn't much of a reason to bring more than two warlocks on most every fight unless you need them to fill the raid. Patchwerk is more about keeping tanks alive than DPS, it can be done with extra healers or sub-optimal DPS but for fights like Thaddius/Loatheb are much more of a DPS test and both fights where fire mages will excel. I've also been looking for an excuse to post this ignite picture I took during a Thaddius attempt a while back and I think this is a good illustration of the power of ignite in certain situations.

http://img205.images...1/ignitexu4.gif

And yeah that damage meter is correct.

#42 Northerner

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 08:17 AM

Ha! I can't really say that the raw damage shocks me but the fact that you managed to live through rolling that monster that long does indeed. As a caveat, I do concede that rolling ignites on vulnerable mobs is a bugged mechanic though and will likely get fixed eventually. C'est la guerre.

#43 Muin

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 08:29 AM

So in this current list of Debuff slots, I have yet to see a mention of Hunter's Mark. My guild has 4 hunters per raid, sometimes 5 and you are gauranteed that Hunter's Mark will be taking up one of these Debuff slots. So where do you list/prioritise Hunter's Mark in the list of debuffs??

It's also difficult to account for proc debuffs such as Improved Shadow Bolt which is going to proc a few times at least during a boss fight.

#44 Samurai

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 08:44 AM

The guy mentioning Nightfall made me wonder how much it actually adds.

If its up 20% of the time (12.5 secs per min, 2.5 procs) and you caster dps is doing 4000dps (6x500 + 3x333) then it adds approx 120dps to the raid. Not sure if that number is correct but makes you wonder if its worth the slot.

#45 Nurru

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 09:16 AM

Regarding Fire vs Frost, when Naxx came out all our mages initially specced fire to play with the changes and also see how their dps was. When we killed Patchwerk I believe we were back to two Frost and the rest were Fire. At this point the fire mages all spec around each other, and the frost mages do the same amongst themselves (we both have 1 point in imp blizz, 1 of us has 3/5 winter's chill, etc). While switching the last two mages to Fire might increase raid dps some, it doesn't make it particularly ideal for us. Using frost mages on Gluth frees the hunters to tranq and trivializes the kiting for us (ymmv obviously) and thus far the Frost specced mages have passed the more crit heavy pieces to the fire mages while we've received more of the hit/damage upgrades. It's a good balance and since our DPS on Patchwerk, Thaddius and Loatheb hasn't been slacking we really don't see any reason to push the issue.

ps: I love being Frost on Loatheb. Ice Barrier and Ice Block are very nice skills to have for the encounter.

#46 Fermion

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 09:48 AM

limiting all the warlocks to one corruption total is just cruel.
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#47 Boevis

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 11:14 AM

DPS classes should always spec for maximum Raid DPS. If there's only 1 Fire Mage in the guild, Improved Scorch isn't making as much of a difference as Improved Shadowbolt. By the same token, if you only have 5 Mages and 2 Warlocks, CoS and CoA aren't going to help as much as CoR and CoE, and Improved Shadowbolt and Corruption won't be as helpful. If you have 5 warlocks, with them all using Corruption, 2 using CoA, and Imp Shadowbolt shows up constantly, yet they can't outdamage your mages, you're going to be better off if they don't bump other debuffs with their DoTs

There's the Debuffs that are going to happen due to proccing off : Deep Wounds, Fireball, Ignite, Improved Scorch, Improved Shadowbolt, Winters Chill, Thunderfury x2
There's the Debuffs that need to happen: Taunt, Sunder, FF, CoE, CoR, IS

#48 Farstrider

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 11:16 AM

Erm nobody's said this yet but isn't the debuff limit being raised to 40 to get round exactly this problem?
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#49 Hober

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 11:56 AM

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/2121/ignitexu4.gif

And yeah that damage meter is correct.

How long after that was he insta-gibbed by thadd?

#50 Bibdy

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 02:23 PM

Erm nobody's said this yet but isn't the debuff limit being raised to 40 to get round exactly this problem?

Yes, but until that happens, people need to be smart about debuff usage.
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#51 Nfariessence

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 04:31 PM

BTW, the real solution to warlcoks complaining about Fireball knocking off their DoTs is to bring more fire mages and less warlocks. :P

And just what do you do in the expansion when you only have 25 man raids? One mage being forced to spec deep Frost for the uber Brilliance Aura to for your healers, one mage being forced to spec deep Arcane for the Slow debuff on bosses... that leaves you with 1, maybe 2 mages for Fire? Can 1-2 Fire mages build and sustain Ignite stacks at even the level they have today? Given that, do you even bring a Fire mage since they lack the utility of other mage trees and don't have anyone to synergize with?

Warlocks are looking to make out quite well in the expansion. We still have our trinity of curses, plus newfound viability in Curse of Weakness that will be -130 damage (-195 when Amped) to the entire raid as well as synergy from Soul Siphon, Improved Shadowbolt and Incinerate doing additional damage when a target has Immolate up. Also, with the addition of Fel Armor, Soul Leech and the incredibly powerful Soul Siphon, as well as new ranks of Drain Life, warlocks gain a measure of self-sustainability they never had before.

So.... what do you do in the expansion? Try to re-recruit the warlocks you shelved in 1.11-1.12 for raiding again? Keep your 6-10 mages on a 2-raid per week rotation? Have your mages reroll? The Burning Crusade will change alot of things.

#52 Maledict

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 04:41 PM

Can 1-2 Fire mages build and sustain Ignite stacks at even the level they have today? Given that, do you even bring a Fire mage since they lack the utility of other mage trees and don't have anyone to synergize with?

I can roll my own ignites in raids, as often I'm the only fire mage. Doesn't happen hugely, and you dont rol them for long, but you definitely get an increase in the damage you do from careful playing and timing.

Also, you bring fire mages because they have a large DPS lead over other specs. You don't *need* to synergise - without rolling ignites fire mages have a 100DPS + lead on other mages. With rolling ignites and the new mage talents as they currently stand, things get even sillier.

#53 Bibdy

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 05:34 PM

I think we're going to see a grand humiliation of Mages in TBC once Warlocks are capable of using all of their DOTs on a single target. There's not a mage alive that can out-DPS me on a single target when I use Immo, COA, Corruption and bolt spam combined. On the other hand, I burn through mana like a crazy mofo. Thanks 1.12 lifetap!
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#54 Nurru

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 05:40 PM

Another thing to keep in mind is that with Mage passive threat reduction being reduced by 66% it gives a higher chance that a crazy ignite chain will pull aggro and kill the mage. Invisibility is a proactive approach to dealing with threat, it won't save you in a case like that.

Then again, in the expansion with 25 man raids it'll be harder to prolong ignites and by then totems may not work in a braindead fashion so mages may have Tranquil Air + Blessing of Salvation.

Now as for grand humiliation of mages, depending on the encounter design I just don't see that happening. Frost and Arcane mages can both be incredibly mana efficient with impressive regeneration abilities. On longer fights we can dps fully with just our personal mana regen, whereas Warlocks will need the attention of healers to sustain themselves. Warlocks certainly will have much improved dps, but don't give up on us yet.

#55 Bibdy

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 05:44 PM

On longer fights we can dps fully with just our personal mana regen, whereas Warlocks will need the attention of healers to sustain themselves.

Both a blessing and a curse.
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#56 Moos3d

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 07:41 PM

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/2121/ignitexu4.gif

And yeah that damage meter is correct.

How long after that was he insta-gibbed by thadd?

I'm not sure if he pulled aggro at all. This was back in 1.11 with fetish + salv.

#57 NuType

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 05:56 PM

My guild has been talking a fair amount about this subject recently. I have a couple questions about the list given in the OP. These questions revolve around two facts about our guild...

1. We are Horde so for now no Pallies.

2. After over a year of clearing MC every week, we have never got a thunderfury... =*(

So with those two facts we free up 4 slots on that list in the OP. Now that our locks have a little more wiggle room for DoTs should we take them, or are things like Insect swarm more important?

Also we tend to not use Gift of Arthas on fights that the tank doesn’t need SR. Do you use it on all boss fights?

#58 snape

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 07:10 PM

There's so much mis-information about Fire Mages in this thread, but in short:

1. 1000 damage Ignite ticks are 500 dps, not 333.

2. Also, Ignite is a high priority debuff, I have <never> seen it pushed off.

3. It is possible to have extremely high spell power and extremely high crit, with either spec (frost or fire)

4. Fireball is a LOW priority debuff, any fire mage can tell you practically 90% of the time on a boss fight, we never see that little "27" over the boss's head.

5. The highest damage, and most important debuff slots as a result, are Ignite, CoE, Sunder Armor, Fire Vulnerability, and Winter's Chill (if you happen to have frost mages - of our 8 raiding mages, only one is Frost, and he gets smoked even by the lowest fire mage).

6. To get a measure of the true benefit of a group of fire mages on Loatheb, don't look at the highest and lowest, do an average over all of them. We are always in the top 3.

#59 Sancus

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 07:14 PM

Another thing to keep in mind is that with Mage passive threat reduction being reduced by 66%

Mage Passive threat reduction is NOT being reduced for Horde(it's actually being increased), and we do fine as-is.

One mage being forced to spec deep Frost for the uber Brilliance Aura to for your healers

There is no such thing as a Brilliance Aura.
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#60 snape

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 07:16 PM

A warlock dot does 100 dps? Ignites are commonly 1000+ dps. You're barking up the wrong tree.

But you can't really credit that to one mage. You have to see how many mages collectively add to it don't you? So if you had 5 fire mages going at it, it'd be more like 200 dps.

This is a non sequiter. Unless mana is an issue, the fact is that the debuff slot is there to do max damage, and clearly, a 1000 ignite tick (which I might add, is a bit wimpy) is better than your uber-corruption tick of 300 any day (not the least of which because yours ticks every 3 seconds, and ours is every 2).




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