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Managing debuffs, how do YOU do it? The warlock v fire mage problem


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#81 Bibdy

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 06:58 PM

What would be a sufficient 'buffer zone' for Deep Wounds and Fireball DOTs to allow an Ignite to keep rolling on something like Patchwerk, while allowing all other necessary/decent debuffs to be used?

I'm thinking around 4-5 slots for a buffer zone and 11-12 other debuffs (COE, COR, Sunder etc).
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#82 Gauss

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 07:41 PM

Our best frost mages usually manage to keep fairly close pace with the mage that owns the ignite stack anyway.

Ok now you're just plain lying.
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#83 Oggie

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 08:03 PM

What would be a sufficient 'buffer zone' for Deep Wounds and Fireball DOTs to allow an Ignite to keep rolling on something like Patchwerk, while allowing all other necessary/decent debuffs to be used?

I'm thinking around 4-5 slots for a buffer zone and 11-12 other debuffs (COE, COR, Sunder etc).

For us-

1) Demo
2) Sunder
3) TF
4) TF
5) CoE
6) CoR
7) CoS
8) Scorch
9) Hunter's mark
10) FF
11) Shadow Weaving
12) SP dot of choice (pain, flay, pick one)
13-16) Happy Fun Time

This will not make your warlocks happy.

So far it's helped us a lot, you can probably give 2 of those slots to warlocks (we're still very much in shakedown phases for this stuff) if you don't have a shadow priest. It really feels like Ignite is only bumped if it has failed to be refreshed before enough debuffs hit to bump it. Depending how often you're firing debuffs I think 3 or so should be enough buffer, but ymmv.

It makes me want to hit Marge Thatcher on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.


#84 Nurru

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 08:08 PM

Our best frost mages usually manage to keep fairly close pace with the mage that owns the ignite stack anyway.

Ok now you're just plain lying.

A frost mage can beat an ignite starved mage by a significant margin (especially on Loatheb), but saying we beat the one with the ignites is absolute crazytalk.

#85 Bibdy

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 11:30 PM

Given that we don't have a Shadow Priest, but we do end up having Winter's Chill we end up having a grand total of I think 6 debuff slots for:

1) Ignite
2) Deep Wounds
3) Fireball DOTs
4) Imp SB procs
5) Warlock DOTs.
6) Curse of Shadows

/sigh

I guess a 0/21/30 Warlock (saccing for health regeneration for more mana through life tap) is about the only really good spec for this fight if you want to stack Ignites. 2 Warlocks for COE/COR each using 1 debuff slot for Immolate and just have at it with Searing Pain. At least you make use of COE/Imp Scorch.

I doubt any other build can compete if forced into not being able to use Shadow debuffs.
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#86 Zoner

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 11:45 PM

Currently warlocks are just not a dps class and there are no encounter mechanics in naxx that use them.

Aside from Gluth, Grobbulus, Noth, Heigan, Anub'rekan, Razuvious, and Faerlina you might have a point.

And Gothik? I beat everyone there sync'd and all most of the time. Conflag spec reigns supreme for that fight.

And if you take away the fire mages precious overpowered ignite on Loatheb, I can beat them too there, even without the shadow boosting talents SM or DS+Succubus.

If your warlocks aren't doing well, they just aren't very good.

But thats ok because on Loatheb, its not like 250k or so of the damage is from COR, 130k from COE, and 45k from COS counts for anything.

#87 Nurru

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 11:51 PM

Currently warlocks are just not a dps class and there are no encounter mechanics in naxx that use them.

And if you take away the fire mages precious overpowered ignite on Loatheb, I can beat them too there, even without the shadow boosting talents SM or DS+Succubus.

This doesn't really say anything. A fire mage without ignite is reduced to 150% crits with a 3 second cast, a frost mage will beat them in flat damage.

#88 Bibdy

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 11:53 PM

Ever tried using 4-5 warlocks keeping back those adds on Noth instead of 9 total DPS classes single targetting them?

"Wait, are you telling me that 4-5 warlocks can unload as much DPS using DOTs and DOTs alone on 3 targets as 9 single target DPS classes can?"

Yes.
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#89 Gumibear

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Posted 29 September 2006 - 03:54 AM

"Wait, are you telling me that 4-5 warlocks can unload as much DPS using DOTs and DOTs alone on 3 targets as 9 single target DPS classes can?"

Yes.

To add to that sentiment, doing so also significantly reduces our chance of pulling aggro.

#90 Xunwael

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Posted 29 September 2006 - 06:11 PM

My personal experience during Naxx and AQ40 tells me that warlocks who for whatever reason get to use debuffs, and thus reach their actual damage potential, will night always outdamage every caster excluding ignite holders. They do need a fairly large amount of debuff slots to pull this off, however, which is where mages trump them. Fire needs improved scorch and ignite, while frost needs only winter's chill (ignoring Curse of Elements) to reach their optimal levels of damage. Cursed be the fireball DoT, bloody thing is worse than deep wounds, but there's not much that can be done about it.

We usually run raids with 6 - 7 mages and 3 - 5 warlocks (y'know, sometimes you lack some here, etc), and have officially scrapped all our frost mages as a result of everyone getting hoocked on ignite. Even our hardcore 1 - 60 frost-through-all-AQ40 master of the cold hasn't looked back after discovering a near 20% increase in average damage output during the vents that he doesn't get ignite, not to mention when he does.

Also, while I don't have very much experience with this since, as mentioned above, all our mages respecced to fire relatively early after entering Naxx, I never saw any of the frost mages outdamage and of the fire mages any of the times when I took the time to study whatever damage listing was being used at the time.

Anyway, ranting aside, I wonder what they're gonna do with mages in TBC. If they're finally letting warlocks unfold with all the debuffs their black hearts may desire, I don't really see mages outdamaging them on anything but encounters involving lots and lots of AoE against mobs that are highly shadow and fire resistant, especially considering you're going to have less mages, which means less rolling ignites - though they'll probably nerf/'fix' it anyway. Unless they're making crowd control such as poly and AoE root/slows required, what's the point of bringing a mage along?

I'm getting worried, my minority complex is kicking in :(
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#91 frmorrison

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Posted 29 September 2006 - 06:30 PM

Unless they're making crowd control such as poly and AoE root/slows required, what's the point of bringing a mage along?

The fire tree got some huge buffs to get in the last push, so even without ignite to pad the damage, Fire Mages will still burn stuff up.

Not to mention Mages are the master of AoE, which is very handy to have around.

Not to mention free Water/Food, the int buff and Amp Magic for the MT.

#92 Xunwael

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Posted 29 September 2006 - 06:45 PM

While I hate to sound like one of the paranoid mages of pre-1.11, who did little but complain about the uselessness of mages during raid encounters that don't involve AoE, that's not something that one mage alone can't do (he could specc full arcane for the slow debuff, and then put the rest in fire for imba imp. scorch for the warlocks! - sorry, just had to). While it certainly is too early to start doomsaying before even seeing TBC raid encounters, I'm starting to get a little worried that we'll once again fall back to being viable raidspots only because we're needed for AoE, and then having it all validated by mana efficency (how this is relevant when compared to a class with unlimited mana hasn't dawned on me yet), the ability to decurse, out-of-combat consumeables and portals.
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#93 Omentuva

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Posted 29 September 2006 - 07:26 PM

It probably will depend on your warlocks and magi as well, and upon a couple of other factors as well... As far as I can see, seed of corruption is a high mana spell and with Warlocks having such a devastating amount of mana, they'll need to devote cooldowns to Lifetap again and spend a lot of the non Lifetapping time refreshing the DoT's. (Seed of Corruption - 2 sec, Immolate another 2, Siphon Life for another 1.5, if allowed a dmg-ing curse another 1.5 sec. Conflagrate if possible.) I can see this becoming very annoying for magi if the warlocks do it correctly. Then again, their aggro reduce stays abysmal as compared to ours. (Full clear for 1.5 sec cast, 5 min cd against 50 % clear, a Shard and the same cooldown.) I just hope that Invis will actually be a buff, not a debuff, so we can click it off. :P

#94 frmorrison

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Posted 29 September 2006 - 07:36 PM

Why would you use Seed of Corruption over normal Corruption? Corruption can be instant cast and can get 36% of +damage gear additionally added to it.

Warlocks will have the simliar -aggro talents as Mages, there is a 10% less on affliction and a 10% less on desto spells.
Mages have the 8 second wait time aggro clear (Invisibility), Locks have the instant 50% aggro clear every 5 min. Both methods have advantages over the other.

#95 Omentuva

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Posted 29 September 2006 - 08:23 PM

Meh, I overlooked Emp Corruption, still has a 1.5 sec casting time for all it matters. And Invis was changed last beta push according to rumor into a 1.5 sec cast in stead of a 8 sec fade, making it a far more useful spell IMO. (As 8 sec of doing nothing and getting no dmg is a lot, whereas 1.5 is to be overseen and can be handy, even at places where there's a lot of AoE going on.) I'm not overly positive, but I have faith. (And if not, it's still beta, and all things are subject to change. At the least they changed Water Elemental. :P)




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