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DPS Warrior - BiS Listings and Discussion


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#1 BWarner

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 07:40 AM

Maintenance Status: Lists not yet completely set up.
If there's a DPS value available, then the related profile reflects an established setup.


This thread is intended to be a repository of the so-called "Best-In-Slot" (BiS) list(s) for DPS Warriors in Wrath of the Lich King, and for discussion on the optimal raiding gear setup. The definition of "Best-in-Slot" here is "all gear available up to a given tier of content, with no restriction on which encounters the gear can be sourced." There's certainly been posts referring to the current BiS scattered throughout various Warrior threads, most notably within Landsoul's Warrior DPS Calculation thread (http://elitistjerks....on_spreadsheet/). However, the value provided by these random BiS postings has been or marginal, if sometimes questionable, usefulness. Creating a one-stop location for the BiS setup discussion will both help to corral the errant BiS posts from places they don't quite belong, and to keep a more directed discussion on the state of the BiS.

I personally believe there is reason to maintain a BiS list. Or rather, more pragmatically, I believe there is reason to maintain a BiS list from each reputable, established, supported theorycrafting source, to both validate each source's methods and functionality, as well as provide a single source for the most effective available setup with any given availability of content. The discussion sparked from such data can also be insightful, given a balanced approach the the output. Please refer to this comparison describing a Formulation versus a Simulation in terms of approaching a DPS result: FormulationVsSimulation . Perhaps as important is the theoretical DPS yield of the tricked-out Warrior.

Before continuing, a few ground rules about how to use this thread, and some caveats about the information contained within this initial (consolidated) post:
  • This thread is not intended or designed to recommend the best immediate upgrade for your particular setup. This is purely a discussion regarding the ultimate setup in any given raiding tier, with the primary focus being on either the most current or an impending one. Often, the gear you see here may even be a downgrade, given your current gear availability. If you wish to determine the value of a gear upgrade, or decide which upgrade would provide the greatest immediate benefit given your current gearset, there are plenty of tools available to you. I highly recommend Rawr or Landsoul's spreadsheet for this purpose.
  • The numbers provided within this thread exist within a raiding vacuum, a testing bubble of perfect raiding conditions. This is due to the extreme variability in both the application of movement (time off target), debuffs, and other DPS hindrances experienced in any given raid situation, and the ensuing difficulty of both implementing a realistic 'suboptimal raid condition' within the various theorycrafting tools, and further implementing these hindrances in such a manner that allows direct comparison across programs. (Wow, that was a heck of a sentence.) Basically, to minimize the variation of the calculations between the various programs, the fight modeling must be both consistent and ideal. What this means is that you should never, ever expect the DPS numbers you see here as realistic goals within an actual raiding environment, as they represent both perfect play and Patchwerk-style fight conditions.
  • The BiS set can and will change. Not only will players experiment with new setup and performance approaches, but calculations change, both within the theorycrafting programs and in Blizzard's playground. Do not accept any particular setup here as a perfect and persistent gospel.



The current tools that I will accept and maintain BiS lists for are Rawr, Landsoul's spreadsheet, and SimulationCraft . You should use the most recent release version, or any newer self-compiled version of any of the programs are acceptable. Please make a note of what version/revision of whichever tools you're using when making a submission. For each program, I will be maintaining one BiS setup for Arms (all weapon specs assumed active, as they are mutually exclusive in practice), and one for Fury. Additionally, at least for the time being (until Cataclysm), there will be two separate categories of BiS, one that allows all armor classes, and one that only includes Plate items. This will make twelve BiS setups in total. This thread's priority is not on past tiers, though I may consider maintaining a simplistic single set of BiS for each previous raiding tier.

Now, some guidelines as to standardization to be used in this thread. The latency is 75ms (or, "low" for SimulationCraft), and the reaction time is 250ms. The race to use is either Gnome or Night Elf (Alliance, so as to keep confusion between faction-specific gear to a minimum), and do not assume the Draenei racial - this is to remove specific weapon Expertise bonuses and the faction (Hit aura) from play. The character will be a Jewelcrafter and Blacksmith. (Note: please place the JC-only gems in the three prismatic sockets, so as to make my life that much easier.) The fight will consist of 300 seconds, or 5 minutes. The fight will assume the player is always (100%) standing behind the boss, and that there is 0% movement/time-off-target. The fight variables will assume no adds, and no incoming raid damage, periodic or otherwise. The boss will have 100% uptime of all raid-beneficial debuffs, including Trauma and Blood Frenzy. The player will have 100% uptime of all standard buffs, the optimal and fully improved versions of each, including 100% Rampage uptime and BoMight instead of Battle Shout. The fight currently will assume that Sunder is provided from an outside (not you) source, though I may consider allowing for a Sunder maintenance version in the future (unlikely). There will be no weighting assigned to Stamina whatsoever for these gear comparisons.

This is obviously modeling a stand-and-deliver style fight. However, given the prevalence of runspeed enchants (Cat's Swiftness and Tuskarr's Vitality) in the DPS Warrior's arsenal, it can be argued that restricting the boot enchant to one that provides runspeed would most accurately depict the state of a player's gear in a standard raid situation. For the time being, all profiles must work under the assumption that runspeed is obligatory. If a fight is indeed stationary (or primarily so), the boot enchant can be easily replaced with Greater Assault or Icewalker, at the user's discretion. Relying on the Hit from Icewalker to reach the cap can be more than a little troublesome for Arms, while switching to Greater Assault or Icewalker from Cat's Swiftness does not exhibit quite the same level of difficulty.

The rotations can get a little tricky. With Landsoul's spreadsheet, you will use the the Default rotation. With Rawr, you will enable all relevant Damage Dealers, Heroic Strike, Bloodrage, and all Periodics aside from Enraged Regeneration. For SimulationCraft, you have full freedom of declaring your own ability usage; accordingly, you must always post the Actions list when posting any SimulationCraft listing (every line that starts with "actions+=/(...)").

The medium to use to communicate a profile is the Wowhead Character Profiler. This is the most advanced, easy-to-use, flexible, and externally supported profiler currently available, and will be the standard profiler for this thread.

There are a number of variables that can be optimized, and you must declare the values of these for every profile you post: Gear, Gems, Enchants, Talents, Glyphs, Flask/Elixirs, and Food. The first five can all be assigned through the character profiler on Wowhead - ensure that you are including all 5 of these elements in your character profile. The Flask/Elixirs will be assumed as a Flask of Endless Rage, unless you state otherwise. The Food will not be assumed as any value, and you must declare what food is used with any given character profile that you submit for consideration. If there is a method within the program to do so, you will use the Indestructible Potion, and enable the use of pre-potting an additional armor pot, if supported.



Program-specific notes for following the standardization guidelines: As a Fury Warrior in Rawr, remove the talent Rampage from the talent tree, and instead activate the Buff version of this buff.


----

T10 BiS listings - available soon




T9 BiS listings

[TABLE]

Rawr

v2.3.4

|||

Arms, Unrestricted

| Profile | | 9567

Arms, Plate Only

| Profile | | 9451

Fury, Unrestricted

| Profile | | 9494

Fury, Plate Only

| Profile | | 9451 [/TABLE]


[TABLE]Landsoul's spreadsheet

2.503

|||

Arms, Unrestricted

|

Profile

| | 9692

Arms, Plate Only

| Profile | | 0000

Fury, Unrestricted

| Profile | | 0000

Fury, Plate Only

| Profile | | 0000 [/TABLE]


[TABLE]

SimulationCraft

330-v5

|||

Arms, Unrestricted

| Profile | | 0000

Arms, Plate Only

| Profile | | 0000

Fury, Unrestricted

| Profile | | 10135

Fury, Plate Only

| Profile | | 0000 [/TABLE]
The Warrior Formerly Known as Aerowyn.

#2 Anduryondon

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 09:31 AM

It would be nice if there is an extra column, that shows the DPS you can reach with the given gear in your choice of tool, just to help other users when comparing their BiS List with the official.

As for BiS Gear Arms with Landsoul's spreadsheet, I get 9692 dps with this setup: Profiler - Wowhead while the one above only gets 9625 (correct me if I am wrong).
For comparison, the only thing i changed is Branns Signet Ring and Rhok'shallah.

#3 rljohn

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 08:57 PM

Coming from a low population server, following the BiS has rarely been a great idea, simply because heroic-last-boss and tribute loot is very unlikely (i.e. a recent transfer guild on our server for Celestial Defender/Death's Demise. Previously, no guild on our server had even finished the Ulduar Meta achievement. There are two guilds 4/5 TOTGC and no guilds with Anub down).

I don't know how common a situation this is, but I have found great benefit in following a near-BIS list. It includes every boss except Anub'Arak-25 and obviously, 25-man tribute loots. For Ulduar, it included everything but Yogg+1 and Algalon. My current list for fury sits at 9100 DPS with only gear from 50-Attempts TOTGC 10 and 4/5 TOTGC 25. If you are interested, I will post a wowhead link when I return home from work.

Top tier raiders may have no use for this, but the average raider could benefit. If wowprogress.com is to be believed, ~300 guilds have completed Insanity, ~600 Mad Skill, and ~950 have completed TOTGC 25. However, ~4000 guilds have completed Twin Valkyr's. With 3.3 around the corner, I believe more people would find use from a near BIS list than a true BIS list. However, I understand that this may not be the point of this website and forum.

#4 Guest_Ablimoth_*

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 11:37 PM

Andur: I don't think that would add anything to the value of the list as each tool calculates dps differently so each tool will give a different range of dps options.

i.e. Landsouls spreadsheet in its BiS certain gearset may say 9k dps is the most attainable while Rawr may say 9.1k dps for it's BiS, that doesn't automatically mean that Rawr's BiS is better than Landsouls' BiS, just that they have different measurements.

#5 lindis

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 12:20 AM

@Ablimoth
Listing the dps from the used tool is in fact not a bad idea, its a simple way for the reader to see what dps the current tool calculates with the listed set of gear. The user can use that number to compare to his own calculated number. While you have a point, most readers will most likely understand not to compare numbers from different tools directly.

#6 BWarner

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 12:23 AM

Very true, Ablimoth, that comparing the DPS output between tools does not make one more or less valid than the next. However, comparing these outputs (particularly the breakdowns) can be very helpful in the development of the tools.

Rljohn, maintaining multiple "levels" of "BiS" is not very helpful on the whole. For one, Best-in-Slot means that it is indeed the best available loot for a particular item slot, not the best barring X encounter. The point of BiS is to see exactly what the ultimate gearing set is, and what exactly the performance implications of such a gearing are. Additionally, there are plenty of guilds who are actively downing all of the content in the game, so this isn't a purely hypothetical discussion. Further, how many "levels" of gearing would you want to be maintained? All content? All minus 50 attempts tribute chest? All minus 45 attempts Tribute chest? All minus any Tribute chest? Should those restrictions be put on just 25s, or 10s, too? No Heroic mode loot? The number of variations is simply unfeasible. I think the best way to accomplish what you're looking for is to use the tools discussed here with the restrictions you're wanting to place on the gear availability.
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#7 Anduryondon

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 12:57 AM

No that was not my intention. It is just for other users, who think their own BiS List may be better than the actual one, so they don't have to equip the actual BiS List only to see if their own setup is better or not.
€: Damn too slow :)

#8 Pier

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 01:44 AM

BiS Fury with unrestricted gear limits and using Rawr (2.2.27). Itemising around not having Heroic Presence.
9624 DPS.
Profiler - Wowhead

The reason the talent spec looks slightly strange is because I encountered a bug. If I tried to add Unbridled Wrath, Anger Management or Improved Bloodrage into the talent tree it actually decreased the dps instead of increasing it.

Flask: Flask of Endless Rage
Food: +40 Strength
Haste Potion was used. It didn't state in the guidelines that this could or could not be used, so I assumed it could.

#9 hellord

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 01:51 AM

It may be worth mentioning the additional parameters used for the BiS list like race, latency used etc.
Horde players must make up for the draenei aura and will probably swap brann's ring with planestalker hc.

The highest DPS I achieved on Landsoul's spreadsheet is 10021,3075 with arp food and this profile with reaction/Latency set to 210/39. The same setup on Rawr (39 latency 210 reaction) gives 9322 DPS for a 360s fight with 100% time behind the boss.

However taking 1/2 WM + juggernaut and swapping 32ap on boots with minor speed + agi gives a loss of about 51 dps on both Landsoul's spreadsheet and Rawr (9970,36 and 9271 respectively) and is probably more suited for the majority of fights.
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#10 BWarner

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 04:02 AM

I noted race already (Gnome or Night Elf, and ensuring that you do not include Draenei aura), but missed declaring a latency / reaction standard. [Edit: 75ms latency, 200ms reaction seems to be the best option for matching SimulationCraft; since the others can modify their settings, we'll use these numbers. If I'm misinterpreting the reaction part of the latency setting in SimulationCraft incorrectly for porting the numbers to other tools, please let me know.] Modifying the original post to reflect this.

Oh, and I just created dummy profiles as a placeholder for each listing, as I'm about to head out for my Thanksgiving festivities (that, oddly enough, have nothing to do with the holiday itself). So, what you see as of right now has not been vetted in each of the programs, and half of them aren't even following the Plate restriction, no to mention the missing gems and whatnot.
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#11 Moozhe

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 04:02 AM

Realistically everyone should use these tools to create their own BiS list given their specific faction/race.

These are good templates to start from though, then rebalance around expertise and hit.

I was able to produce 9943 DPS in Rawr 2.2.27 as Fury Unrestricted with the following setup.. Profiler - Wowhead

Using Dragonfin Filet.

#12 BWarner

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 04:15 AM

If there is a method within the program to do so, you will use the Indestructible Potion, and enable the use of pre-potting an additional armor pot, if supported.


Actually, the potion to use was mentioned. =D However, I think Landsoul's sheet assumes the use of the Potion of Speed - it would be nice to be able to manually select your potion usage, as well as enable pre-potting an Indestructible, in the sheet (hint, hint!).

Agreed, Moozhe, on all points.

I'm also adding in the acceptable versions of the programs - you should use the most recent release version, or any newer self-compiled version of any of the programs are acceptable. Please make a note of what version/revision of whichever tools you're using when making a submission.
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#13 Guest_Ablimoth_*

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 04:47 AM

Realistically everyone should use these tools to create their own BiS list given their specific faction/race.

These are good templates to start from though, then rebalance around expertise and hit.

I was able to produce 9943 DPS in Rawr 2.2.27 as Fury Unrestricted with the following setup.. Profiler - Wowhead

Using Dragonfin Filet.


Should he not be an Orc? I have no access to Rawr at work so I can't test it myself, although I can't imagine any circumstance where an Orc would not be superior to a Night Elf from a theoretical perspective, with Blood Fury and Axe Specialisation vs. Nothing.

#14 BWarner

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 04:56 AM

The intention is to remove race- or faction-specific benefits from the equation.
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#15 Moozhe

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 05:19 AM

Although with race changes being available, it would make sense to allow race as part of the BiS equation. I wouldn't consider faction changing though, since that would mean leaving your guild. But people do race change to min/max.

Only downside is that it would require one set of BiS profiles for Alliance, and one for Horde.

#16 Bersi

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 09:37 AM

Top tier raiders may have no use for this, but the average raider could benefit. If wowprogress.com is to be believed, ~300 guilds have completed Insanity, ~600 Mad Skill, and ~950 have completed TOTGC 25. However, ~4000 guilds have completed Twin Valkyr's. With 3.3 around the corner, I believe more people would find use from a near BIS list than a true BIS list. However, I understand that this may not be the point of this website and forum.


rljohn, the upcoming BiS list will be another academical list which will only show how much DPS is theoretical archieveable. When you take a closer look at Landsouls Fury gear list it contains seven drops from Anub alone, four of them from tokens which are needed from all classes which makes it rather unlikely that one can archieve all these items in the next time. For an individual BIS list depending on *your* raid progess you will still have to use the Tools for yourself.

#17 dedmonwakeen

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 01:33 PM

SimC lag options (and their default values)

queue_lag=0.075
gcd_lag=0.150
channel_lag=0.250

reaction_time=0.500

(The xxx_lag values represent the center point of an RNG distribution.)

#18 callion

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 04:00 PM

I don't know about you but I have yet to see any warriors who gem full ArP top any lists on World of Logs. I see that SimCraft suggest going full ArP but both the SS and Rawr says go softcap with trinket. That to me is enough proof that SimCraft seems way off.

#19 suffer

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 04:14 PM

Not sure if I'm the only one, but I would really love to expand a list like this that includes only 10/25/10H or simply 10/25. With ICC right around the corner, I would imagine that a lot of us will end up pretty stacked in regular mode gear because hard modes won't be available for so long. Additionally, there seem to be quite a large number of guilds that do 10/25/10H but not 25H. I might be biased, but that is my experience anyway.

Any chance this could be incorporated into the current listing?

Thanks.

#20 dedmonwakeen

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 04:48 PM

I don't know about you but I have yet to see any warriors who gem full ArP top any lists on World of Logs. I see that SimCraft suggest going full ArP but both the SS and Rawr says go softcap with trinket. That to me is enough proof that SimCraft seems way off.


Please remember that without a gear optimizer like Rawr, the default profiles shipped with SimC are simply recommendations generated after a little by-hand experimentation. I am anxiously awaiting the results of this thread so that we can update our Warrior BiS profiles.




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