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DPS Warrior - BiS Listings and Discussion


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#21 Shrakz

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 07:35 PM

I don't know about you but I have yet to see any warriors who gem full ArP top any lists on World of Logs. I see that SimCraft suggest going full ArP but both the SS and Rawr says go softcap with trinket. That to me is enough proof that SimCraft seems way off.


I use Landsoul's spreadsheet as my only theorycrafting tool. With my current setup, it's telling me it's better to gem full armor pen for a slight increase in dps over full strengh. The only Armor pen trinket I have is Grim Toll and since I'm already too high on Hit, it's not worth it for me to gem for soft cap and still use Grim Toll.

All this to say that it really depends on your current setup. Should I get a Mjollnir and I would regem back to soft cap right away.

Also, I don't know anything about SimCraft since I've never used it before, but if it's giving numbers that are comparable to other theorycrafting tools (be it the maximum dps possible or a similar BiS list), then it shouldn't be off by a lot and it would probably only be different on things like averaging trinket procs on the whole fight or some minor things like the actual SEP of Hit rating after cap or expertise VS Armor pen to get to high values.

#22 Guest_Ablimoth_*

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 12:47 AM

Inspecting the Profiles on Wowhead, all Fury profiles excepting the BiS Rawr Fury Unrestricted profile are missing enchants and gems on their offhand weapon.

#23 BWarner

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 02:35 AM

Yes, Ablimoth, I'm currently traveling, I just wanted to get something up for formatting purposes. I am recording the maintenance status of the listings at the top of my initial post.

I really am hesitating on including different "levels" of gearing as an additional requirement for the listing. 12 is already on the absolute outside of what I think can be both easily maintained, and be productive when analyzing the implications of such gearing. Additionally, "Best-in-Slot", by definition, is encounter-blind; where the gear comes from is irrelevant, as long as it's obtainable in a given tier of raiding or earlier.

Callion, I think it's way too early to jump to such conclusions, especially since we haven't even really put into place even a starter BiS setup for each tool. If anything, the two setups are pretty close. Plus, as the trinkets that would go in place of Mjolnir get better and better, the "superiority" (I use the term extremely loosely) of the ArP soft-cap w/ trinket diminishes, as the strong point of such a setup is based on the power of the trinket proc.

Dedmonikwaniken (your username has always made me break out in hives! =D), is the user-reaction time really hard-coded to half a second? That seems pretty high, compared to what I've always used in other tools.
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#24 rljohn

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 04:57 PM

Yes, Ablimoth, I'm currently traveling, I just wanted to get something up for formatting purposes. I am recording the maintenance status of the listings at the top of my initial post.

I really am hesitating on including different "levels" of gearing as an additional requirement for the listing. 12 is already on the absolute outside of what I think can be both easily maintained, and be productive when analyzing the implications of such gearing. Additionally, "Best-in-Slot", by definition, is encounter-blind; where the gear comes from is irrelevant, as long as it's obtainable in a given tier of raiding or earlier.


Building a best-in-slot-except-the-last-boss-on-hard-mode set is something I've done since the release of Ulduar, for myself personally. Some people may find a use for it, some won't. Others would have use for a no-hard-modes set, or no-10 mans sets, or what have you. I agree with you that it would be very cumbersome to hold a giant list of different sets, which would defeat the purpose of the post anyway. A decent solution would be, for those who wish to maintain a partial BIS list could host that information on a blog or something, and then simply use one line on your post to reference and link to these blogs. It would require very little effort from yourself, and comments on partial BiS could be done on the blog's comments instead of your thread, which should be dedicated to true best in slot discussion.

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#25 dedmonwakeen

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 06:18 PM

D, Is the user-reaction time really hard-coded to half a second? That seems pretty high, compared to what I've always used in other tools.


It defaults to half a second, but the option names I specified can be put in the profile to override the reaction and lag times.

I went with 500ms based upon a 200ms server-client latency value and 300ms human response time. The 300ms value IS high, but given the hectic nature of raiding I thought it should be bumped up over the traditional 200-250ms.

However..... provided that reaction_time is less than a GCD, varying the values should not have a huge impact.

#26 Guest_alienangel_*

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 08:47 PM

The intention is to remove race- or faction-specific benefits from the equation.


I'm curious why this intention is there. As you said "The point of BiS is to see exactly what the ultimate gearing set is, and what exactly the performance implications of such a gearing are." Knowing which race is the best race for current content is useful, since it changes your BiS quite dramatically, particularly for melee classes. The fact that not everyone can be the best race doesn't really matter, since not everyone can be a Gnome or Nelf either - similar numbers of people will find the BiS list posted incorrect for them either way (actually fewer might find it incorrect if you do allow variation of race, since more people are likely to be the best races already).

If I may point out a bit of external experience, the hunter section has had a "Best Possible DPS using X's Spreadsheet" for 2 expansions now, and we left race and professions variable, and only locked raid buffs, debuffs latency, and fight duration. We did argue back and forth about race for a while, but left it variable. This led to the best profiles all being Orcs the majority of the time, with occasional periods where it was a Dwarf due to weapon iLvls, but IMO that was more useful than the best profile always being tailored to a random race that doesn't benefit the class. Thanks to expertise racials, I'd think the racial disparity in BiS gear would be even more dramatic for warriors.

#27 Yazuka

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 02:39 AM

I have to agree for the horde section that using a generic race to determine Best in Slot lists would not work. Considering the fact that Orc Racials completly change the fact where we gain our expertise from compared to an Undead, Troll or Tauren.

For example the Best Possible Orc Fury Setup consists of using , and whilst using .
If said warrior was also using instead of using then the Best Possible Setup becomes , and .

For Taurens, Trolls and Undeads however the Best Possible Setup I have found was using , and , are required to cap expertise with this setup.

I've not done any checking on Arms BiS Setup so I'll leave it to someone else to show the differences between races.

#28 Anduryondon

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 05:00 AM

Arms is not that crucial, because you don't have to be expertise capped.

#29 katze

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 09:24 PM

Type: BiS Rawr Arms Unrestricted
Link: Profiler - Wowhead
Food: Hearty Rhino
DPS: 9539

I get 9539 DPS in Rawr for Unrestricted Arms with this setup Profiler - Wowhead. This is compared to the 9495 DPS from the baseline set (or 9533 when one 20 ArP gem is replaced by one 20 Str gem). I was quite surprised to see 3 pieces of tier; you would logically suspect either 2 or 4. I think this is due to the lack of any well-itemized iLvl 258 helms other than tier.

#30 Guest_Ablimoth_*

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 04:31 AM

Actually, after the weekend considering the impact of Race, I agree with the decision to go with a 'DPS-neutral' race to test with, for the supposition that we are attempting to find the highest DPS gear set, not the highest DPS toon make up. There should perhaps be consideration noted for Orcs, Humans and Dwarves re: attaining the expertise cap, but the race should not adjust depending on the type of weapon that is BiS.

#31 hikarodesu

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 06:21 AM

Now I am in no way an expert, but while looking through the fury gearsets I noticed that the enchant on the boots was cat's swiftness. Wouldn't it be much better to be using icewalker? Icewalker will put you from 7.70% hit rating to the required 8% (8.06% to be exact).

I also noticed that regardless if you click on the unrestricted or the plate only sets, the belt used is still mail belt "belt of deathly dominion".

This is all using the profile rather than importing it into the spreadsheets, I'm not sure if the spreadsheets have the same error or if it was simply bad linking for the profile pages. (the pages are however not the same and say respectivly "BiS LS Fury Unrestricted" and "BiS LS Fury Plate Only"

#32 BWarner

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Posted 01 December 2009 - 01:44 AM

Yes, I fully understand the sets are totally borked, and all copies of each other, or otherwise not correct - PLEASE READ my previous comments, and/or the initial post. The sets that are linked to are just placeholders, as I was out of town without computer access over Thanksgiving weekend. I will update them with some real sets that follow each guideline as soon as I get the time - hopefully later this week. In the meantime, use the previous posts in this thread as a reference.
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#33 Furrymaker

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Posted 01 December 2009 - 12:54 PM

Now I am in no way an expert, but while looking through the fury gearsets I noticed that the enchant on the boots was cat's swiftness. Wouldn't it be much better to be using icewalker? Icewalker will put you from 7.70% hit rating to the required 8% (8.06% to be exact).


The best boot enchant for any dps (without run speed bonus from talents) is one with a run speed increase. On any fight requiring movement the increase in dps up time generally trumps the minuscule amount of hit and crit from icewalker. Icewalker would be better on Patchwerk but we won't be seeing any more fights like that any time soon.

#34 Jayde

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Posted 01 December 2009 - 01:07 PM

The best boot enchant for any dps (without run speed bonus from talents) is one with a run speed increase. On any fight requiring movement the increase in dps up time generally trumps the minuscule amount of hit and crit from icewalker. Icewalker would be better on Patchwerk but we won't be seeing any more fights like that any time soon.


Although I would generally agree with this in almost all cases, I've found very few fights where Charge was not sufficient in order to maintain optimal or nearly optimal DPS time on the bosses in question. Considering you would want to use Charge (when appropriate) anyway due to the rage gain, it's questionable how much gain an Arms Warrior would get from having Cat's Swiftness in many cases.

Not saying it's not the right choice, but the argument could be made for Arms Warriors at least that Cat's Swiftness may not increase DPS much (if at all) over Icewalker.

#35 rljohn

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Posted 01 December 2009 - 03:49 PM

I am a huge fan of the Engineering nitro boots enchant. While obviously not for everyone, it has saved my bacon more than a handful of times and is my best friend for crossing large distances in NRB and Anub. The hyperspeed accelerators stack very well with death wish for Fury, although I'm not sure if this is modeled by the spreadsheet or rawr.

Although I would generally agree with this in almost all cases, I've found very few fights where Charge was not sufficient in order to maintain optimal or nearly optimal DPS time on the bosses in question.


I found similar results. Between intervene, intercept and heroic fury I've rarely had an issue maintaining DPS uptime.

#36 Jothay

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Posted 03 December 2009 - 06:42 PM

BiS Fury with unrestricted gear limits and using Rawr (2.2.27). Itemising around not having Heroic Presence.
9624 DPS.
Profiler - Wowhead

The reason the talent spec looks slightly strange is because I encountered a bug. If I tried to add Unbridled Wrath, Anger Management or Improved Bloodrage into the talent tree it actually decreased the dps instead of increasing it.

Flask: Flask of Endless Rage
Food: +40 Strength
Haste Potion was used. It didn't state in the guidelines that this could or could not be used, so I assumed it could.


Would you post this on the Rawr Issue Tracker please? We'd like to investigate it, don't forget to attach the character file saved from Rawr.
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#37 BWarner

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Posted 05 December 2009 - 09:17 AM

Concerning Cat's Swiftness as the default boot enhancement: While it may not always be the best choice, it certainly provides an undeniably great deal of benefit when it does. There are enough encounters that make this unique benefit worthwhile that it cannot be ignored in a list such as this. While it wouldn't be so much of an issue if you were Fury and sitting comfortably above the soft Hit cap, and therefore more flexible in your gearing decisions (as switching out Icewalker in favor of Cat's Swiftness wouldn't radically alter your level of Hit by pushing it into sub-softcap territory), relying on Icewalker for Hit as Arms (which would be necessary given a single, binary Hit cap) would be problematic in terms of switching it out for those situations where a runspeed enchant provides a necessary benefit.

It can be said that one could always switch out a Str/Crit gem in favor of a Str/Hit one, but this a) assumes that you're using a Str/Crit gem in the first place (not necessarily a safe bet, but more so given the gear level in Icecrown), and B) assumes that once switched, the new setup is indeed the "Best-In-Slot". There's a couple of ways I could go with this, and I'm tending towards the solution that doesn't multiply the number of listings into unmanageable and ultimately useless numbers.

If there's a fight that runspeed doesn't provide much, if any, benefit, then it's easier from these lists to switch from runspeed to Hit/Crit or AP, rather than having to go the other way around, especially given the rather distinct lack of standstill fights in current an near-future endgame raiding.

It's not a perfect solution, but it's the best that I can see.


PS. Should get some free time this weekend to get in some work on the lists. ;)
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#38 ebs2002

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 07:39 PM

Suggestion: Try to make BiS for each of the races with gear-specific bonuses (Orc, Dwarf, Human, Other) and make separate columns for each.

I know this is a more daunting task with Landsoul's spreadsheet, and I've never used SimCraft. But in Rawr this is nice and easy to do ;)

#39 landsoul

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 08:08 PM

Although I would generally agree with this in almost all cases, I've found very few fights where Charge was not sufficient in order to maintain optimal or nearly optimal DPS time on the bosses in question. Considering you would want to use Charge (when appropriate) anyway due to the rage gain, it's questionable how much gain an Arms Warrior would get from having Cat's Swiftness in many cases.

Not saying it's not the right choice, but the argument could be made for Arms Warriors at least that Cat's Swiftness may not increase DPS much (if at all) over Icewalker.


That's interesting you say this. The 55/8/8 incite spec (with weapon mastery) does not have enough points for juggernaut. Are players willing to drop a point in AttT, Cruelty, Incite, or Weapon Mastery to pick it up?
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#40 Dragonspear

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 09:37 PM

Normally I only run 1/2 points in weapon mastery as is, so that I have a point for Juggernaut. But that is me.




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