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Numbercrunching Iblis Versus The Hungering Cold


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#1 Erving

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 10:20 AM

Hi all!

I've been going through the difference between Iblis and The Hungering Cold, now that we have the live stats of it. I wrote this entry on the European WoW forums:

-- snip --

My gut reaction still says that Iblis isn't so much worse than The Hungering Cold, meaning that either Iblis needs a nerf or The Hungering Cold needs a buff.

Let me show what I mean, and do the math (I'm ignoring the armor and stamina on The Hungering Cold and, in part two, the stamina on Chromatically Tempered Sword, as this is a pure DPS calculation) to see if I'm right:

Part 1:

The Hungering Cold, 76-143 damage, 1.5 speed:
73 dps.
+6 sword skill.

Iblis, 70 - 131 damage, 1.6 speed:
62.8 dps.
+1% crit
+1% hit
+26 attack power.

Assuming a naked lvl60 gnome rogue (I know it's a hard picture to paint up in your minds, but please try). He's specced Combat Swords, so he has Malice, Precision and Dual Wield Spec.

Assuming he is wearing absolutely nothing except Iblis in his offhand, he would have a DPS of 65 against a same-level opponent (hit and crit counted).

Assuming he is wearing absolutely nothing except The Hungering Cold in his offhand, he would have a DPS of 71.25 against a same-level opponent (+sword skill counted in the calculation).

This means that there's an "actual" difference of 6.25 dps between the two weapons when the extra stats are counted. The +crit and +hit and +attack power and +sword skill benefits the mainhand weapon as well, so let's assume you've got Chromatically Tempered Sword in Mainhand and do the same calculations.

Part 2:

Chromatically Tempered Sword, 106 - 198 damage, 2.6 speed
+14 Agility.
+14 Strength.

Assume the same naked lvl60 gnome rogue with Malice, Precision and Dual Wield Spec.

Assuming he is wearing absolutely nothing except Chromatically Tempered Sword in his mainhand, Iblis in his offhand, he would have a DPS of 84.32 in his mainhand, 66.5 in his ofhand. Add them up and you get 150.82 dps. (All stats counted on both swords, calculated versus same-level opponent)

Assuming he is wearing absolutely nothing except Chromatically Tempered Sword in his mainhand, The Hungering Cold in his offhand, he would have a DPS of 82.46 in his mainhand, 72.75 in his ofhand. Add them up and you get 155.21 dps. (All stats counted on both swords, calculated versus same-level opponent).

This makes Chromatically Tempered Sword + The Hungering Cold win by only 4.39 DPS in white damage versus a same-level opponent.

However, the combo with Iblis, which gives a higher total Attack Power, would mean that your Sinister Strikes would actually be larger.

All in all, not a great upgrade.

-- snip --

Now, I'm calculating pure white damage versus an equal-level opponent, but my question is this: Assuming we're fighting a lvl63 opponent, will the +6 weapon skill make a considerable difference?

#2 isk

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 10:23 AM

it will make a clear difference against raid bosses, yes

#3 Erving

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 10:25 AM

What I'm wondering most is, when fighting lvl 63 mobs, if the +1% hit, +1% crit and +26 AP on Iblis will raise the yellow damage from Sinister Strikes and Eviscerate enough compared to the white damage increase from +6 Sword Skill on The Hungering Cold.

#4 sevenlives

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 10:26 AM

The entire point of +skill is to reduce the rate of glancing blows that drastically reduce the white damage done. Taking that out of the equation seems to defeat the point of doing the math for raiding.
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#5 isk

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 10:27 AM

great question, I was merely thinking of white damage.

#6 Ghork

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 10:28 AM

Yes that will make a difference as it will make your glancing blows hit for more, it will be a roughly ~6% increase in dmg vs lvl 63's granted that you dont have any other items/talents like weapon expertise, as having more than +10 skill vs lvl 63's doesn't help much exept 0.04% chance to hit crit and 0.04% less chance to dodge and parry for your opponent per point.

However this is hardly a offhand weapon, this is clearly intended to be a mainhand tanking weapon, so the real question should be how it compares to thunderfury a weapon you can get in 3 raid zones back if you are really lucky.

Vs nature immune mobs it will clearly be better, but i doubt its better vs the majority of bosses.

#7 Jaz

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 10:28 AM

Never, ever, ever, ever underestimate +skill when fighting a L63 boss.

#8 Samurai

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 10:29 AM

I threw my current gear into the latest swords spreadsheet on the combat daggers thread.

Gressil / Hungering 23dps more than Gressil / iblis.

AQR / Hungering 22dps more than AQR / iblis.

These are pretty close to my rudimentry calculations which would say that its 10.5dps which is 7.5 offhand dps losing 1crit / hit / 26ap so thats about 3skill gaining 2 more skill upto the cap so thats about 10-12dps which makes it 18-20dps then its a slight bit faster so more poison / sword specs. Ofc these are very rough estimates but the spreedsheet seems pretty accurate.

#9 Erving

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 10:29 AM

Yeah, when it comes to white damage, the +6 sword skill is awsome versus, for example, lvl63 bosses. However, white damage usually only ends up being around 40% of my total DPS, so instinctively it feels like Iblis, with it's stat bonuses, would be able to raise my already-high yellow damage with the white damage suffering slightly because of it.

Edit: Used the word awsome twice in the same sentence. :P

#10 Sanosu

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 10:32 AM

But, what does this mean for human sword rogues? Is it more worthwhile to stick with a Thunderfury or Iblis offhand than go with THC, or is it effectively more dps to put the two points from Weapon Expertise elsewhere, and use THC regardless.

#11 Samurai

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 10:32 AM

However this is hardly a offhand weapon, this is clearly intended to be a mainhand tanking weapon, so the real question should be how it compares to thunderfury a weapon you can get in 3 raid zones back if you are really lucky.

Vs nature immune mobs it will clearly be better, but i doubt its better vs the majority of bosses.

I don't know if that statement is stictly true.

Granted they put stamina / armour on it, but widows remorse, an awesome tank weapon, is still there too at the same level as iblis.

I think this was designed for multi-purpose tank / rogue / (fury war :( )

#12 Samurai

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 10:34 AM

Yeah, when it comes to white damage, the +6 sword skill is awsome versus, for example, lvl63 bosses. However, white damage usually only ends up being around 40% of my total DPS, so instinctively it feels like Iblis, with it's stat bonuses, would be able to raise my already-high yellow damage with the white damage suffering slightly because of it.

Edit: Used the word awsome twice in the same sentence. :P

40% really? Horde sword rogues are getting 65-68% white damage on fights like patchwerk.

#13 Eillenia

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 10:39 AM

Yeah, when it comes to white damage, the +6 sword skill is awsome versus, for example, lvl63 bosses. However, white damage usually only ends up being around 40% of my total DPS, so instinctively it feels like Iblis, with it's stat bonuses, would be able to raise my already-high yellow damage with the white damage suffering slightly because of it.

Edit: Used the word awsome twice in the same sentence. :P

40% really? Horde sword rogues are getting 65-68% white damage on fights like patchwerk.

Windfury totem maybe?

#14 sevenlives

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 10:39 AM

Alternate method of thought: if glancing blows by design provide a 12% reduction in white DPS, which is 50% of a rogues overall DPS, meaning a 6% reduction in overall DPS. 10 skill equates to a 6% boost in overall DPS, or .6 per point of skill, while crit provides roughly 1% per point, giving us roughly 1c:1.66s for the decrease in glancing. Add in the equivalent of .04% crit per point of skill and the .16% +hit equivalent per point of skill (h/d/p/b).

above from kalman, though I believe that is CD not swords numbers on white damage.

http://forums.elitis...php?id=6457&p=2

has the numbers on white damage. For swords if the mark really is 63-64% white damage then the reduction in glancing blows lost damage is even greater(was lazy, should be 7.6% dps gain for swords with +10 skill, if 63-64% of damage is white damage). I think you will be hard pressed to find a better fury warrior or sword rogue offhand for quite some time, since +skill is such a rare stat. Dagger rogues must wish there was an equivalent +dagger skill offhand so the ACL's could finally go.
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#15 Erving

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 10:40 AM

40% really? Horde sword rogues are getting 65-68% white damage on fights like patchwerk.

Nerf windfury. :-)

Does anybody have the time/skill to calculate what the actual white damage difference will be vs. a lvl63 mob if using, as per my example above, CTS+Iblis and CTS+THC, counting the +1% hit, +1% crit, +26 AP from Iblis and the +6 Sword Skill from THC?

I mean, I know that the increased white damage is considerable from using THC as an offhand, but I'm trying to figure out how much better it will be than the increased yellow damage from using Iblis as an offhand.

Edit: Added question about yellow damage.

#16 Samurai

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 10:44 AM

Yeah, when it comes to white damage, the +6 sword skill is awsome versus, for example, lvl63 bosses. However, white damage usually only ends up being around 40% of my total DPS, so instinctively it feels like Iblis, with it's stat bonuses, would be able to raise my already-high yellow damage with the white damage suffering slightly because of it.

Edit: Used the word awsome twice in the same sentence. :P

40% really? Horde sword rogues are getting 65-68% white damage on fights like patchwerk.

Windfury totem maybe?

But still at 60+% without WF.

#17 Erving

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 10:47 AM

Windfury totem maybe?

But still at 60+% without WF.

Must be a difference in play-styles, then, something loading up 5 combos using Sinister Strikes and then unloading them in a 5p S&D instead of throwing a 1p S&D and loading up a 5p Eviscerate.

#18 Stromni

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 11:00 AM

Dagger rogues must wish there was an equivalent +dagger skill offhand so the ACL's could finally go.

Not sure but i think dagger rogues are quite spoiled when it comes to things adding + to daggers. There is technically a blue offhand dagger that already adds +6 to daggers. Mugger's Belt is another +5, ACL is another +5, Death's Sting +3. Talents for another +5. Call me a idiotic warrior but if you have the talents , and were lucky enough to get Death's Sting, your probably going to go with ACL and Kingsfall/Maexxna in the other hand.

/shrug, then again i am just a warrior, dagger rogue would know best

#19 Samurai

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 11:08 AM

Windfury totem maybe?

But still at 60+% without WF.

Must be a difference in play-styles, then, something loading up 5 combos using Sinister Strikes and then unloading them in a 5p S&D instead of throwing a 1p S&D and loading up a 5p Eviscerate.

I believe they are using the much popularised 3 5 5 cycle (3snd 5snd 5 evic and repeat), with AQR / iblis and wf totem.

#20 sevenlives

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 11:09 AM

The ACL and muggers belt are quite inferior statwise, and the DS is a rare drop. Yes, they probably wouldnt wear any +skill item if they have the talent and they have the DS, but an offhand accounts for much less damage, and makes it easier to upgrade since they do not have to balance the damage loss of losing +3 daggers with a raw damage upgrade from a new mh weapon.
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