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Numbercrunching Iblis Versus The Hungering Cold


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#21 issei

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 11:10 AM

Dagger rogues must wish there was an equivalent +dagger skill offhand so the ACL's could finally go.

death's sting

#22 Stromni

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 11:18 AM

Oh yeah Muggers + Distracting (i dont really see any rogue desperate enough to "seriously" use it) are much inferior statwise. I was just commenting on the fact if a dagger rogue wanted to go nuts with + daggers skill they have alot more way's to get it than a rogue seeking + to swords or any other melee weapon they can use.

#23 suicuique

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 11:35 AM

I think this was designed for multi-purpose tank / rogue / (fury war :( )

I' m not getting why you felt to put a smiley behing the fury warrior option (AND in brackets!).

IMHO its a VERY fine tanking sword the same as (from my naive understanding of rogue mechanics) the best sword OH for a rogue. As such it is ALSO the IDEAL weapon for a fury warrior. So no need to count them out ... they will at all times profit from the sword, be it while tanking or when DPSing.

Now Gressil ... that one i would understand being wiser spent on a rogue than a fury warrior.
But not the hungering cold. So cut the sour grapes :)

regards

#24 Samurai

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 12:58 PM

I think this was designed for multi-purpose tank / rogue / (fury war :( )

I' m not getting why you felt to put a smiley behing the fury warrior option (AND in brackets!).

IMHO its a VERY fine tanking sword the same as (from my naive understanding of rogue mechanics) the best sword OH for a rogue. As such it is ALSO the IDEAL weapon for a fury warrior. So no need to count them out ... they will at all times profit from the sword, be it while tanking or when DPSing.

Now Gressil ... that one i would understand being wiser spent on a rogue than a fury warrior.
But not the hungering cold. So cut the sour grapes :)

regards

It's an in built rogue hatred of fury warriors, we all have it, but I will appologise for it none the less.

#25 frmorrison

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 01:44 PM

For human sword Rogues with 10 sword skill, the difference is smaller, but Hungering Cold is still better due to the 10 dps.

However, I don't see a Rogue getting this weapon anytime soon, they have a different sword they will go after (Gressil).

#26 Shik

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 01:48 PM

If Gressil still has its original stats, I wouldn't be suprised if warriors and rogues just decide to split them and give priority. Hungering Cold clearly does double duty as a brilliant Tank and Fury weapon, but doesn't even come close to the DPS change a rogue see's upgrading their mainhand to Gressil. Fury warriors are less reliant on weaponspeed.

That said, no guild gets to Kel without a level of co-operation on stuff like that.

#27 probiscus

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 02:59 PM

Aren't there like 6,512 posts about this very subject with maybe 1-2 words switched around?

Seriously. What the fuck?

#28 Samurai

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 03:03 PM

Aren't there like 6,512 posts about this very subject with maybe 1-2 words switched around?

Seriously. What the fuck?

Since the item only appeard 18 hours ago that would be 361 posts per hour.

But seriously, where is the other thread on this exact subject as opposed to 1 or 2 posts dotted around other threads that have nothing to do with this exact subject?

#29 Murr

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 03:07 PM

But, what does this mean for human sword rogues? Is it more worthwhile to stick with a Thunderfury or Iblis offhand than go with THC, or is it effectively more dps to put the two points from Weapon Expertise elsewhere, and use THC regardless.

One thing to keep in mind is the +6 skill from THC (and the +3 from Sting) aren't a straight +skill once expansion hits, but +skill rating much like crit/hit rating, while Weap Ex should still remain +5 weapon skill (much like crit talents stay +crit%).

And yeah, for daggers, 2/2 Weap Ex + Death's Sting + Bonescythe Gauntlets = win!

#30 Celandro

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 03:21 PM

Its a tanking weapon. There is a rogue sword off the same boss, dont be greedy.

#31 Kalman

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 03:25 PM

Its a tanking weapon. There is a rogue sword off the same boss, dont be greedy.

It's also the new ideal sword rogue offhand. It's the same discussion we had a few weeks back on Iblis - don't be greedy, indeed.
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#32 Samurai

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 03:36 PM

Its a tanking weapon. There is a rogue sword off the same boss, dont be greedy.

Such an inspired and well thought out post, this forum thanks you for your continued contribution.

p.s. rogues dual wield.

#33 Celandro

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 03:41 PM

I am quite consistant. Main hands > offhands. A tank main hand is always better than a rogue or fury warrior offhand for total raid benefit. Both are better uses than a hunter main or offhand.

Hungering Cold may finally be a weapon that can out agro thunderfury which is saying a lot. It has +skill for when you cant heroic strike 100% of the time, and if you can do it 100% of the time you get more agro there too from the faster speed.

#34 Tel

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 05:00 PM

The fact is that hungering cold vs iblis and hungering cold vs widows remorse comes out about even. I think ou guild will probably just play it by ear when we get there, see who needs it the most at the time :)

No point really planning for it till you know what people need when it drops.

#35 Tarbaby

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 05:22 PM

I am quite consistant. Main hands > offhands. A tank main hand is always better than a rogue or fury warrior offhand for total raid benefit.....

You do realize that the +skill will affect BOTH MH and OH sword damage in the hands of a Rogue or Dual Wielding Warrior right? I'm not saying it should absolutely go towards a dps class, but it being "less beneficial" in their hands is hardly the case.

#36 Kalman

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 05:47 PM

I am quite consistant. Main hands > offhands. A tank main hand is always better than a rogue or fury warrior offhand for total raid benefit. Both are better uses than a hunter main or offhand.

Hungering Cold may finally be a weapon that can out agro thunderfury which is saying a lot. It has +skill for when you cant heroic strike 100% of the time, and if you can do it 100% of the time you get more agro there too from the faster speed.

It's the same discussion we had a few weeks back on Iblis. Anyone interested in the lengthy discussion should just go read that one instead.
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Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
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#37 Crazypie

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 06:00 PM

I am quite consistant. Main hands > offhands. A tank main hand is always better than a rogue or fury warrior offhand for total raid benefit.....

You do realize that the +skill will affect BOTH MH and OH sword damage in the hands of a Rogue or Dual Wielding Warrior right? I'm not saying it should absolutely go towards a dps class, but it being "less beneficial" in their hands is hardly the case.

HC on a tank means the whole raids dps can increase without worry of aggro concerns. As an offhand, i doubt the dps increase will come remotely close to the overall hypothetical raid dmg increase. I say hypothetical because aggro concerns are becoming less and less prevalent in raid boss encounters. Nobody knows blizz's intentions but I doubt they'd completely remove the tank aggro generation aspect of a boss.

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#38 roq

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 06:02 PM

I am quite consistant. Main hands > offhands. A tank main hand is always better than a rogue or fury warrior offhand for total raid benefit. Both are better uses than a hunter main or offhand.

Celandro you had this same exact discussion here a few weeks ago. We read all of your points in that post and we don't need to read them here again. You want the weapon, you think it is better for tanks and you should have priority. Everything you said during the Ibis discussion, can we end this now?

#39 Celandro

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 06:02 PM

I am quite consistant. Main hands > offhands. A tank main hand is always better than a rogue or fury warrior offhand for total raid benefit.....

You do realize that the +skill will affect BOTH MH and OH sword damage in the hands of a Rogue or Dual Wielding Warrior right? I'm not saying it should absolutely go towards a dps class, but it being "less beneficial" in their hands is hardly the case.

Of course I do. And Im very well aware how good +skill is for both rogue and fury warrior offhand (rage gen makes +skill better for warriors though).

Main attributes: high dps, very fast speed, tanking stats, +skill
Main hand benefits: Big boost to raw white dps, excellent for constant damage next swing abilities (heroic strike/poisons), raw dps helps compensate for mediocre weapon based next swing abilities (windfury) and instant attacks (sunder armor/whirlwind), excellent rage generation and rage generation consistancy.
Offhand benefits: excellent for constant damage next swing abilities, +skill will affect main hand, excellent for causing MH extra attack abilities (sword spec/windfury/hoj).

Candidates:
MT - Likely upgrading(?) from a Thunderfury. Assuming this weapon out agros thunderfury in high rage use environments, a big boost to raid dps in many fights
OT - See Main Tank but main benefit is far more consistant agro on adds than any other weapons (including thunderfury since its not proc based) so dps can go all out on adds with less lead time.
Fury warrior (alliance) - Good MH weapon, although agro may be an issue
Fury warrior (horde) - Excellent OH weapon, MH during execute phase. Extra windfury procs may cause an agro issue here too
Sword Rogue - Excellent OH weapon
Everyone else - Sad Panda time

Assumptions: Other weapon drop is similar dps but more crit/hit/ap oriented and slower which makes it a good candidate for Fury MH and Rogue MH, other weapon has equal drop rate

Goal: Fair distribution of both weapons that increases raid dps and hopefully lowers chance of not clearing Naxx each week.

I would give the tank weapon to the tanks (including fury warriors who situationally tank) and the dps weapon to the rogues. This is absolutely no different than giving Widow's Remorse to tanks and Maexxna's Fang to rogues.

#40 Kalman

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 06:03 PM

It's the same discussion we had a few weeks back on Iblis. Anyone interested in the lengthy discussion should just go read that one instead.

It's the same discussion we had a few weeks back on Iblis. Anyone interested in the lengthy discussion should just go read that one instead.

It's the same discussion we had a few weeks back on Iblis. Anyone interested in the lengthy discussion should just go read that one instead.

It's the same discussion we had a few weeks back on Iblis. Anyone interested in the lengthy discussion should just go read that one instead.

It's the same discussion we had a few weeks back on Iblis. Anyone interested in the lengthy discussion should just go read that one instead.

OK?
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.




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