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Numbercrunching Iblis Versus The Hungering Cold


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#41 probiscus

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 06:04 PM

Stop. Please?

#42 Praetorian

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 06:17 PM

I think it's a hunter weapon.

#43 Praetorian

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 06:18 PM

^^^ Does the above post seem strangely at home in this thread? There's a reason for that. Numbercrunch like the thread title says -- don't engage in Thottbotism.

#44 Chicken

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 06:19 PM

I have to agree with that, with the limited meleeing hunters do it is very important to make sure that the chance the blow actually lands and with as little mitigation as possible. Hence +swords is definitely an attribute most valuable to Hunters because it achieves this goal in a very optimized way.

#45 Kalman

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 06:21 PM

Using my rough equivalencies to get a first-order approximation of which is better as a rogue offhand:

1 skill = 1.2% hit = .75% crit = 19 AP (approximate, don't take as gospel)

Iblis: AP equiv to 15.8+25.3+26 = 67.1
THC: AP equiv to 114

Better stats vs. raid mobs, better DPS, better rogue offhand. (The faster speed for more poison procs doesn't hurt, either.)
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#46 Deril

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 06:25 PM

So it's better than Iblis, I would have thought that such a comparison would be self evident? Comparable speed, worse stats perhaps in that it lacks dps oriented bonuses (though it does have +skill) but an increase of 10 listed dps. I would be more curious to see as to whether raid dps is increased by giving it to a rogue to offhand for damage, or a warrior to mainhand for a greater threat threshold. It's incomparable concerning tanking weapons, really. I would sincerely hope that the stupid Thunderfury proc doesn't outmatch it, and the Widow's Remorse cannot really hold a candle since they're similarly built.

#47 Kalman

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 06:27 PM

So it's better than Iblis, I would have thought that such a comparison would be self evident? Comparable speed, worse stats perhaps in that it lacks dps oriented bonuses (though it does have +skill) but an increase of 10 listed dps. I would be more curious to see as to whether raid dps is increased by giving it to a rogue to offhand for damage, or a warrior to mainhand for a greater threat threshold. It's incomparable concerning tanking weapons, really. I would sincerely hope that the stupid Thunderfury proc doesn't outmatch it, and the Widow's Remorse cannot really hold a candle since they're similarly built.

It depends on whether your raid is threat-limited or not. I would have thought this would be self-evident?
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.

#48 Deril

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 06:29 PM

It depends on whether your raid is threat-limited or not. I would have thought this would be self-evident?

A good point, but it's kinda tough to gauge if a raid is threat-limited without empirical evidence; the numbers don't come through quite as mechanically as rogue dps does. So run the numbers to see what a rogue out to be able to put out with this as an offhand paired with some magical mainhand (Gressil, I suppose), and compare it to your regular threat numbers. A good tank can manage a lot, but a rogue with two 73dps weapons I could see as being a bit hard to keep ahead of comfortably.

#49 Celandro

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 07:16 PM

So it's better than Iblis, I would have thought that such a comparison would be self evident? Comparable speed, worse stats perhaps in that it lacks dps oriented bonuses (though it does have +skill) but an increase of 10 listed dps. I would be more curious to see as to whether raid dps is increased by giving it to a rogue to offhand for damage, or a warrior to mainhand for a greater threat threshold. It's incomparable concerning tanking weapons, really. I would sincerely hope that the stupid Thunderfury proc doesn't outmatch it, and the Widow's Remorse cannot really hold a candle since they're similarly built.

Proc based agro can be pretty inconsistant and if you get unlucky TF can have extremely low agro. Proc based agro is also not as good for memory wipes/etc

Some very quick threat numbers from my heroic strike excel sheet.
1200ap 15% crit 0%hit 0skill with no weapon equipped, imp hs, defensive stance + defiance + threat enchant
Hungering Cold: HS Threat: 467.71 HS Rage Cost: 17.899 ThreatPS: 311.81 ThreatPRage: 26.13
Thunderfury: HS Threat: 492.36 HS Rage Cost: 18.017 ThreatPS: 259.14 ThreatPRage: 27.33
This number is also useful:
Hungering Cold ignoring +skill: HS Threat: 488.42 HS Rage Cost: 17.394 ThreatPS: 325.61 ThreatPRage: 28.08

Unfortunately these numbers are a bit misleading since the threat from HS is reduced if you have +skill (yellow damage has no glancings), but does make a point that Heroic Strike is more threat per rage for Thunderfury than HC.

So Hungering Cold vs. Thunderfury
Raw DPS agro estimate: (73 - 53.9) = 19.1 (give or take)
white damage increase from +6skill = ~+4% (note this same increase still applies if 100% heroic strike usage)
rage increase from +6skill = +0-2%
Heroic Strike difference: between (26.13-27.33)/27.33= -4.4% and (311.91-259.14)/259.14=+8.8%
Difference from proc agro ~ -80 agro per second


So for total agro is ~60 agro per second < +4% white damage and rage gain and heroic strike? I don't know. But I guarantee that at least 25% of the time TF will be far lower agro than HC in the first 10s after engage or a memory wipe.

#50 Savos

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 10:57 PM

Fury goes for Hungering Cold and Mal'adeth or is the loss in damage too big to over come with 100% glancing damage?

Can dump the Edgemasters too and put on those gloves from C'Thun too, thats a big upgrade too.

#51 Praetorian

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 11:10 PM

Fury goes for Hungering Cold and Mal'adeth or is the loss in damage too big to over come with 100% glancing damage?

Can dump the Edgemasters too and put on those gloves from C'Thun too, thats a big upgrade too.

Not if you're a human.... Damn humans.

#52 Savos

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 11:18 PM

Well, I meant for those of us that weren't fortunate enough to roll Orc/Human :(

#53 Xard

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Posted 09 September 2006 - 01:00 AM

This sword is loot drama personified, jesus.

I hear that clearly, if you have DKP whoever bids the most should get it, am I right?

I think swapping places on the drop might be a good idea hear. First two or so could go to tanks since they've got a good bit of threat to gain here, and then the next two go to rogues or fury warriors or something. Overall the sword is simply -too- good to give entirely to one class.

#54 zepi

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Posted 09 September 2006 - 01:16 AM

Considering that once you have beaten K'thuzad, it shouldn't be so important to minmax anymore, as there are no new bosses to be faced. So let the highest bid decide, it's no point calculating 0.x dps advantages in raid-dps anymore.

You've beaten the game already, there is only one bonus level left...

Ashbringer (and maybe Atiesh)

#55 arc

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Posted 09 September 2006 - 04:18 AM

Considering that once you have beaten K'thuzad, it shouldn't be so important to minmax anymore, as there are no new bosses to be faced. So let the highest bid decide, it's no point calculating 0.x dps advantages in raid-dps anymore.

You've beaten the game already, there is only one bonus level left...

Ashbringer (and maybe Atiesh)

This isn't really a valid argument. Sure once you've gotten this sword, you've beaten everything once, but you probably intend to do it again don't you?

Wouldn't it be nice not to have to get world buffs and heavy consumables for fights like Loatheb, or presumably Kel'Thuzad? I doubt the guilds that have killed the four horsemen will automatically kill them in one shot next week.

Continued loot distribution in the spirit of progression will aid significantly in placing this content on a much cleaner, cheaper, and less stressful farm status. Once you one shot everything, every week, with the realisitic bare minimum of consumables, then you can start giving stuff to whoever for leveling to 70 though, sure.




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