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#41 Shammiewow

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 02:20 PM

I have a question about rotations, particularly as they relate to Enhsim.

The default rotation puts SW (Spirit Wolves, right?) first, followed by Shamanistic Rage. But I don't actually play that way. I cast both spells situationally, which in practice means "not that often". I cast SW when think I need a boost and I cast SR when I get low on mana.

Am I making a mistake? Should I just be spamming both whenever they are off cooldown? Or should I adapt the Enhsim Priority Queue to reflect my playstyle? And if so, how?

#42 Jessamy

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 03:02 PM

In addition to its position in the priority queue, there are 2 additional triggers in enhsim for SR. There is a check box to use it on cooldown, for people who have the t10 set bonus. More generally, there is a threshold mana level to use SR. If your mana falls below this level, the sim will try to cast SR if the priority comes up.

#43 Ryethe

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 04:04 PM

I have a question about rotations, particularly as they relate to Enhsim.

The default rotation puts SW (Spirit Wolves, right?) first, followed by Shamanistic Rage. But I don't actually play that way. I cast both spells situationally, which in practice means "not that often". I cast SW when think I need a boost and I cast SR when I get low on mana.

Am I making a mistake? Should I just be spamming both whenever they are off cooldown? Or should I adapt the Enhsim Priority Queue to reflect my playstyle? And if so, how?


Others are finding that moving spirit wolves down near the bottom along with SR and producing DPS increases. To me this is irrelevant though. My first spirit wolves is always synced to hero which is not at the whims of my ability queue but instead at the whims of the raid. I currently cast SR whenever its up and I have a dead spot in my priority list. The sim is a lot more rigid. For example, if you are at 4k mana (with SR set to fire at 4k) and SR > FN, then the sim will fire SR even though in practicality I would probably hit FN and then do SR in the empty space to follow. In fact my chances of even hitting 4k mana to begin with are very slim.

#44 Shammiewow

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 04:31 PM

In addition to its position in the priority queue, there are 2 additional triggers in enhsim for SR. There is a check box to use it on cooldown, for people who have the t10 set bonus. More generally, there is a threshold mana level to use SR. If your mana falls below this level, the sim will try to cast SR if the priority comes up.


It appears that if you don't have SR in your priority queue, the sim doesn't cast it at all, even though the threshold mana option has a number. Which would suggest that the default settings do what I do: only cast SR when necessary for mana replenishment.

#45 Shammiewow

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 05:18 PM

Others are finding that moving spirit wolves down near the bottom along with SR and producing DPS increases. To me this is irrelevant though. My first spirit wolves is always synced to hero which is not at the whims of my ability queue but instead at the whims of the raid. I currently cast SR whenever its up and I have a dead spot in my priority list. The sim is a lot more rigid. For example, if you are at 4k mana (with SR set to fire at 4k) and SR > FN, then the sim will fire SR even though in practicality I would probably hit FN and then do SR in the empty space to follow. In fact my chances of even hitting 4k mana to begin with are very slim.


Yes, you're right. Dropping it in my Rotation Order actually resulted in a DPS increase. Which leads me to wonder if it should just be part of my standard rotation, and not just cast on special occasions? It does seem to be somewhat valuable, but not all that valuable. It's like a 200 DPS increase over the duration of the simulation.

#46 Morelis

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 01:28 AM

Is there a reason the sim seems to show such low mana regen from JoW? I find from looking at parses that it usually returns a comparable amount of mana to imp SS and about triple what replenishment provides. When I run the sim however, JoW's MRPS is about 8 or so with replenishment in the 40s, looking at other peoples sim results this seems to be the norm. I'm just wondering if I'm misinterpreting something in there.

#47 Levva

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 03:01 AM

Is there a reason the sim seems to show such low mana regen from JoW? I find from looking at parses that it usually returns a comparable amount of mana to imp SS and about triple what replenishment provides. When I run the sim however, JoW's MRPS is about 8 or so with replenishment in the 40s, looking at other peoples sim results this seems to be the norm. I'm just wondering if I'm misinterpreting something in there.


Possibly a bug??? Please post detailed analysis in the issues thread at EnhSim - Issue Tracker so that we can test this.


Re: SR in priorities - it does as you'd expect only use SR if you dip below the mana threshold you set.

As to the comment from Ryethe that "my chances of even hitting 4k mana to begin with are very slim." this very very strongly suggests then that if you are sitting with a pool of mana that is over 4k when SR becomes available, then you have way too many mana regen talents and could afford to switch some for dps talents. The trick is to get to around 10%-15% mana when SR becomes available (20-25% if you are more nervous about fight movement dynamics). If you are saying you have a useless 4k mana reserve all the time that you never need to tap into then you are almost certainly getting mana back too quick and could do with less and thus more dps.
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Please use the EnhSim by Ziff & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps. You can use ShockAndAwe to export your paperdoll stats to EnhSim.

#48 Ryethe

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 06:24 AM

Yeah I for sure agree with what you're saying. However the point I was trying to raise is that people need to understand the exact situation the sim is simulating and its current limitations. It's good to know that if you're below say 5k you should hit DR at X priority, but I would think that it would be intelligent to also hit the button at 6k mana if you end up with a complete dead spot in your rotation and end up not wasting a GCD when there may be other abilities off CD later.

Perhaps we could have and option in the sim to hit SR if nothing else is available (bottom of the queue reached) but also to hit it at the priority specified if we get below a certain mana amount? Not sure this would be the worth the work at the moment since in a couple months we'll likely be hitting SR on CD with 2pc. Something to keep in mind for post-3.3 though if SR doesn't get drastic changes.

#49 Israfel

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 07:27 AM

Wrong thread, sorry, it was reguarding a new trinket.

#50 Nevets_69

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 12:30 PM

Yeah I for sure agree with what you're saying. However the point I was trying to raise is that people need to understand the exact situation the sim is simulating and its current limitations. It's good to know that if you're below say 5k you should hit DR at X priority, but I would think that it would be intelligent to also hit the button at 6k mana if you end up with a complete dead spot in your rotation and end up not wasting a GCD when there may be other abilities off CD later.

Perhaps we could have and option in the sim to hit SR if nothing else is available (bottom of the queue reached) but also to hit it at the priority specified if we get below a certain mana amount? Not sure this would be the worth the work at the moment since in a couple months we'll likely be hitting SR on CD with 2pc. Something to keep in mind for post-3.3 though if SR doesn't get drastic changes.


If this is the behavior you want the sim to demonstrate, it's already available.

Just set the mana threshold to 16000 (or whatever your total mana pool is), and then put SR at the bottom of your priority list. That way, the sim will always be looking to cast SR, but never actually do it until you get to "dead spot" in your rotation.
The only risk, is that if the sim never finds these dead spots like you do, then it will never use SR.
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Enhancement Shaman: So are you.

#51 Ryethe

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 05:06 PM

If this is the behavior you want the sim to demonstrate, it's already available.

Just set the mana threshold to 16000 (or whatever your total mana pool is), and then put SR at the bottom of your priority list. That way, the sim will always be looking to cast SR, but never actually do it until you get to "dead spot" in your rotation.
The only risk, is that if the sim never finds these dead spots like you do, then it will never use SR.


I want both. Deadspot AND casting at point in my rotation when mana is low.

#52 Shæmak

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 05:25 PM

I've done some tinkering on the enhsim and it's showing better overall dps from dual wielding mongoose chants prefered to berserking. I'm just curious to the explanation of this. From my assumptions i believe mongoose is better overall for fact of survival. 120 agi = AP + Crit added with the haste brought on by lightning speed buff from mongoose.

#53 Levva

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 01:58 AM

I've done some tinkering on the enhsim and it's showing better overall dps from dual wielding mongoose chants prefered to berserking. I'm just curious to the explanation of this. From my assumptions i believe mongoose is better overall for fact of survival. 120 agi = AP + Crit added with the haste brought on by lightning speed buff from mongoose.


I trust you have substantial evidence to back up that claim, we like evidence here rather than statements with no proof. Please post your config files showing this to be the case.
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Please use the EnhSim by Ziff & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps. You can use ShockAndAwe to export your paperdoll stats to EnhSim.

#54 Grumpf

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 04:21 AM

[*]need testing/confirmation of interaction between Flametongue weapon, Magma Totem and Searing Totem and Trinket procs. Will it activate trinkets that stack on damaging spell effects. Will it's crits stack Reign of the Dead and similar trinkets? What about trinkets that stack on damage spell cast? Will need.....


Spent about 3 hours testing . Stripped down naked with nothing but both weapons imbued w/ Flametongue.
Started with straight melee for 10 or so CDs. Started dropping totems for about an hours worth of CDs. Eventually started casting Nova along with it. Alternated between Magma and Searing totems on CDs but failed to use my melon and never thought to drop Elemental.

Never gained a single proc on FT, by dropping either totem, periodic from either totem, or Nova off either totem.

Will mess with Elemental; time permitting in the future.

#55 Israfel

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 01:49 PM

Spent about 3 hours testing .
Never gained a single proc on FT, by dropping either totem, periodic from either totem, or Nova off either totem.


If anything, that trinket should only proc from Fire Nova casts, but not any of the FT swings or Searing/Magma/Fire Elemental Totem drops.

#56 Pimpmuckl

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 02:51 PM

the beeing implented in Ehnsim?

Was lucky yesterday and tried to sim for Twin Valkyrs Heroic with the Answer the Trinket wasn't found :(

#57 Rouncer

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 04:23 PM

Checked and he's right that it doesn't stack from Fire Nova casts. Also checked on while I was at the dummies and it did proc from Fire Nova, so seems to be bugged in regards to Fire Nova. Not a big deal since that trinket is so bad but probably worth opening a ticket on the bug report forums.

the beeing implented in Ehnsim?

Was lucky yesterday and tried to sim for Twin Valkyrs Heroic with the Answer the Trinket wasn't found :(


I opened a ticket about that and the other trinkets that there is information on, hopefully a developer will have time to implement them soon.

EnhSim - View Issue #5574: Whispering Skull Fang

If you have an opportunity, please take some time with a dummy and confirm that the cooldown (which is what was stated in the wowhead comments) is correct.

#58 rokshan

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 05:51 PM

I was also lucky enough to get Whispering Fanged Skull and I can confirm, that the duration of the proc is 15 seconds and the internal cooldown 45 seconds.

#59 tiddly

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 06:27 PM

Spent about 3 hours testing . Stripped down naked with nothing but both weapons imbued w/ Flametongue.
Started with straight melee for 10 or so CDs. Started dropping totems for about an hours worth of CDs. Eventually started casting Nova along with it. Alternated between Magma and Searing totems on CDs but failed to use my melon and never thought to drop Elemental.

Never gained a single proc on FT, by dropping either totem, periodic from either totem, or Nova off either totem.

Will mess with Elemental; time permitting in the future.


If the mecnism is the same as the talisman of volatile power it could be bugged, as I have yet to see this proc as enhance, I mailed a GM and they said that it was a known issue and they were already aware of it.

#60 Fenris

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 08:13 PM

If you have an opportunity, please take some time with a dummy and confirm that the cooldown (which is what was stated in the wowhead comments) is correct.


I took the time this morning to do a 10 minute full DPS rotation with this trinket equipped. In 10 minutes, I received 12 procs, the first proc being on my very first SS. Unfortunately the proculus mod does not have the proc from Whispering in its database, so I had to try to time the ICD manually, while watching for the proc. I am 99.9% certain it is a 45 second ICD, and the proc rate is incredibly high. As soon as the ICD was over, it seemingly proc'd instantly. The simple math would suggest that I never went longer than 50 seconds without it proccing.

On top of the DPS rotation, I also did a test to see if magma totem would proc the trinket by placing my magma inbetween 4 test dummies for 3 minutes. As I suspected it did not, however, using fire nova did proc it.




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