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#601 Delsin

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 12:37 AM

People should start trying to figure out exactly how Flametongue is scaling. On the beta it seemed to be getting normal spellpower scaling and then something like an additional 2-4% coefficient off attack power. Also need to confirm whether or not it's scaling correctly with mastery now.


I did a couple of preliminary tests and so far it would seem that you are correct about the way Flametongue is working. In my tests it appears that Flametongue is in fact scaling properly with Mastery, and it seems to gain another ~4% of my attack power. Also, the attack power scaling seems to only occur if you are spec'd as Enhancement, which isn't a surprise, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

The attack power bonus doesn't seem to be linear, but that might just be a problem with my formula. I just tacked on the bonus to the end, but it seems like attack power is providing a larger bonus the more of it you have. I'll try and work on this some more in the next few days.

Test 1: 5216 ATP, 3041 SP, 15.97 Mastery, 2.5 Weapon Speed, Enhancement

Predicted: ((274 + (3041 * 0.15244)) * 2.5/4) * (1+15.97*0.025) + (5216 * 0.04) = 853.66
Tested: 859-860

Test 2: 432 ATP, 629 SP, 8 Mastery, 2.5 Weapon Speed, Enhancement

Predicted: ((274 + (629 * 0.15244)) * 2.5/4) * (1+8*0.025) + (432 * 0.04) = 294.69
Tested: 293-294

Test 3: 4542 ATP, 349 SP, 0 Mastery, 2.5 Weapon Speed, No Spec

Predicted with ATP Bonus: ((274 + (349 * 0.15244)) * 2.5/4) * (1+0*0.025) + (4542 * 0.04) = 386.18
Predicted without ATP Bonus: ((274 + (349 * 0.15244)) * 2.5/4) * (1+0*0.025) = 204.5
Tested: 204-205


#602 Rouncer

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 04:06 AM

The attack power bonus doesn't seem to be linear, but that might just be a problem with my formula. I just tacked on the bonus to the end, but it seems like attack power is providing a larger bonus the more of it you have. I'll try and work on this some more in the next few days.


That's what I noticed with it as well. Seems to give you more of a percentage boost the more AP that you have. Definitely was scaling properly with mastery though, I checked that first on the beta and it looks like your results are confirming that made it through to the live servers.

Next thing is to work our a formula for the AP coefficient and get it all incorporated into the Sim.

EDIT - this post has some of the testing data I collected from the Beta servers.

Caster MHs Return, Ehnc needs tweaking - Forums - World of Warcraft

Agility Gear - Caster Mainhand
5600 AP
5780 Spellpower
8 Mastery -> 1003 damage
8 mastery + Landslide proc (6600 AP + 6280 SP) -> 1088
11.32 mastery -> 1072.5 damage
11.32 mastery + landslide -> 1163.5 damage

Elemental Gear - Caster Mainhand
440 AP
5775 Spellpower
12.03 Mastery -> 908.5 damage
12.03 Mastery + Landslide (1440 AP + 6275 SP) -> 1000 damage

Seems to be getting a small percentage of our AP as additional damage. But I haven't yet worked out a formula that fits all the data points. Formula seems to be

((305 + (SP * 0.15244) + (AP * X)) * (base weapon speed / 4.0)) * mastery = damage

X seems to have a value between 0.026 and 0.048

I did just check and the armor specialization does not seem to be involved. The AP values are without a helm so the mail specialization was not active.


The landslide data might help with sorting out the curve since it's a 1000 AP proc

#603 Delsin

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Posted 27 November 2010 - 01:52 AM

I'm not sure if I missed it somewhere, but was the weapon speed for those tests 2.2?

#604 Rouncer

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Posted 27 November 2010 - 02:02 AM

I'm not sure if I missed it somewhere, but was the weapon speed for those tests 2.2?


2.3 speed - it was the Twilight's Hammer except it had 53.1 dps instead of the 231.2 shown on wowhead.

I had similar findings for flametongue with the agility mainhand, just not sure where I wrote them down since my daughter has a tendency to throw all the papers on my desk every which way.

#605 Rouncer

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 04:12 AM

Posted this ticket over at EnhSim. SimulationCraft developers were nice enough to let me know how they are coding flametongue and I just tested their formula over multiple values and it correlated very nicely so hopefully we can get it incorporated into the sim ASAP.

EnhSim - EnhSim - View Issue #7613: Flametongue Weapon

Formula for the curious who don't want to click the link
((274 + (spellpower * 0.1539) + (attackpower * 0.04611)) * (base weapon speed / 4)) * (1 + (mastery * 0.025))

#606 ziff

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 11:35 AM

Posted this ticket over at EnhSim. SimulationCraft developers were nice enough to let me know how they are coding flametongue and I just tested their formula over multiple values and it correlated very nicely so hopefully we can get it incorporated into the sim ASAP.

EnhSim - EnhSim - View Issue #7613: Flametongue Weapon

Formula for the curious who don't want to click the link
((274 + (spellpower * 0.1539) + (attackpower * 0.04611)) * (base weapon speed / 4)) * (1 + (mastery * 0.025))


This seems like a bug to me that'll get fixed. Let me re-order the formula and see if you can see what I mean.

((274 + ((base spellpower + (attack power * 0.50) + (attack power * 0.30)) * 0.1539) * (base weapon speed / 4.0) * (1 + (mastery * 0.025))

For those following along, the base spell power value is our current spell power not including spell power from Mental Quickness and the (attack power * 0.50) line is from our current Mental Quickness primary talent. I say current because the (attack power * 0.30) line sure as heck seems to be the old Mental Quickness talent we had before 4.0.1 dropped. So my guess is that the old talent is still attached to us somehow. It would be nice to see this on the PTR with a premade character, but the PTR isn't up right now.

#607 Althor

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 11:57 AM

I'm not sure how (attackpower * 0.041611) is the same as ((attack_power * 0.5) + (attack_power *0.3)) * 0.1539.

Or:

(attackpower * 0.041611) == (attack_power * 0.8) * 0.1539
(attackpower * 0.041611) == (attack_power * 0.12312)

That doesn't appear correct.
I do get the general idea of course of what you're suggesting. There's been a few talents and abilities that have kept their old effects in addition to their new ones.

#608 Nidhoggr

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 12:52 PM

I'm not sure how (attackpower * 0.041611) is the same as ((attack_power * 0.5) + (attack_power *0.3)) * 0.1539.


This isn't quite what he's saying. Let me put it this way;

274 + (spellpower * 0.1539) + (attackpower * 0.04611)
Spellpower = Base Spellpower + (attack power * 0.5)
274 + ((Base Spellpower + (attack power * 0.5)) * 0.1539) + (attackpower * 0.04611)
Becomes:
274 + (Base Spellpower + (attack power * 0.5) + (attackpower * 0.04611/0.1539)) * 0.1539
274 + (Base Spellpower + (attack power * 0.5) + (attackpower * 0.3)) * 0.1539

#609 Rouncer

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 12:57 PM

Ziff, doesn't matter if it seems like a bug or not. All that matters is that is the behavior that flametongue is currently exhibiting. We're attempting to simulate with as much accuracy as possible the live game and it's conditions. SimulationCraft's formula does that.

Bug report the findings since they do seem to fit the conditions you are laying out but it is something that has now survived several beta builds and made it onto the live servers so EnhSim needs to incorporate it until they change things to work differently.

EDIT - I admit that I am probably looking too hard at Flametongue and hoping to see something the developers are intentionally doing instead of just something that occurred without their input. The progression of how flametongue changed over the course of the Beta fits both models of thinking. Still, it is what is on the live servers now. So if they fix it by treating it as a bug and removing that extra 30% of AP that might represent the old mental quickness or if they fix it by treating it as an interim step and remove the base spellpower scaling altogether all we can really do is just update the sim to match.

I see you added the changes already. I haven't tested it specifically yet but I am getting reports that searing flames is now scaling properly with our spell crit. A cursory look at WoL parses made since the patch confirms that finding so if you wouldn't mind changing that as well and then pushing out a new build it would be appreciated. Thanks.

#610 ziff

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 06:47 AM

Ziff, doesn't matter if it seems like a bug or not. All that matters is that is the behavior that flametongue is currently exhibiting. We're attempting to simulate with as much accuracy as possible the live game and it's conditions. SimulationCraft's formula does that.

Bug report the findings since they do seem to fit the conditions you are laying out but it is something that has now survived several beta builds and made it onto the live servers so EnhSim needs to incorporate it until they change things to work differently.

EDIT - I admit that I am probably looking too hard at Flametongue and hoping to see something the developers are intentionally doing instead of just something that occurred without their input. The progression of how flametongue changed over the course of the Beta fits both models of thinking. Still, it is what is on the live servers now. So if they fix it by treating it as a bug and removing that extra 30% of AP that might represent the old mental quickness or if they fix it by treating it as an interim step and remove the base spellpower scaling altogether all we can really do is just update the sim to match.

I see you added the changes already. I haven't tested it specifically yet but I am getting reports that searing flames is now scaling properly with our spell crit. A cursory look at WoL parses made since the patch confirms that finding so if you wouldn't mind changing that as well and then pushing out a new build it would be appreciated. Thanks.


I definitely agree with keeping the sim reflecting on how live works as opposed to how with think Blizzard wants the class to work. I was just trying to call out what I think was happening with the extra Flametongue effect. I highly doubt this is Blizzards attempt at buffing our class. They have other means to buff us if they want to, without resorting to such a strange interaction. If they truly wanted to buff us, they could have just boosted Mental Quickness from 50% to 55% or increased the rate of Maelstrom Weapon procs. Blizzard has plenty of knobs to turn now that will only effect us without effecting Elemental. I'm assuming right now Blizzard thinks we are fine and are waiting until a good portion of the user base gets to 85 before they start looking at class balance issues again.

#611 ziff

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 06:48 AM

EnhSim 2.1.1

Download from EnhSim 2.1.1

This release adds in the changes for 4.0.3a.
To use this release, you must have the Microsoft Visual C 2010 Redistributable Package installed. This can be downloaded from Download details: Microsoft Visual C++ 2010 Redistributable Package (x86)
To use the GUI, you must have the .NET 4.0 Frameworks installed. This can be downloaded from Microsoft .NET Framework 4 (Web Installer)


Changes
- Switched Searing Flames back to using the Shaman's spell crit
- Changed Flametongue weapon to now get the full effect from Mastery as well as the extra AP bonus seen on live.
- Bumped up the crit bonus of Glyph of Stormstrike from 8% to 10% to match live.

#612 Levva

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 12:38 PM

Can we also have a lvl 85 release. With the last ever ICC reset now over, within a day or so people will have done their last ever ICC raid where they care about their level 80 stats (for some of us that was months ago).

The reality is we are going to have people wondering what the best pre-raid gear is then the best raiding items, so having a level 85 release ready, so that we can test these ideas is a good thing.

I've had requests for a BiS list and someone posted a pre-raid BiS list on US forums however that heavily focuses on mastery over agility and I'm just not convinced of that yet. I'd love to be able to test out those claims before having to face the content and make the decisions.
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#613 Jessamy

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 01:40 PM

Can we also have a lvl 85 release. With the last ever ICC reset now over, within a day or so people will have done their last ever ICC raid where they care about their level 80 stats (for some of us that was months ago).

The reality is we are going to have people wondering what the best pre-raid gear is then the best raiding items, so having a level 85 release ready, so that we can test these ideas is a good thing.

I've had requests for a BiS list and someone posted a pre-raid BiS list on US forums however that heavily focuses on mastery over agility and I'm just not convinced of that yet. I'd love to be able to test out those claims before having to face the content and make the decisions.

Once we have a level 85 simulator, we'll have a level 85 BiS thread. It will follow a similar format to the locked 3.3 BiS thread, with similar rules.

#614 Rouncer

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 02:52 PM

What's the armor on a level 88 raid boss? What are the base stats for the feral spirits at level 85? What's the base damage range on the Fire Elemental's abilities? I'm sure there are others too.

There are still questions that need answering but no one can answer them because the Beta is closed.

I'm not against a level 85 release but it should probably be a Alpha/Beta type release with Warnings on it. Then we can have a real release version once those questions are answered.

Levva, what would be really helpful would be if you could get the Rawr enhancement module's export function working for Cataclysm.

#615 Althor

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 05:05 AM

What's the armor on a level 88 raid boss? What are the base stats for the feral spirits at level 85? What's the base damage range on the Fire Elemental's abilities? I'm sure there are others too.

There are still questions that need answering but no one can answer them because the Beta is closed.

I'm not against a level 85 release but it should probably be a Alpha/Beta type release with Warnings on it. Then we can have a real release version once those questions are answered.

Levva, what would be really helpful would be if you could get the Rawr enhancement module's export function working for Cataclysm.


As per http://elitistjerks....hanics_testing/ the level 88 boss armor is apparently 11977.

SimulationCraft has the following values set for the base stats of Feral Spirits:
    attribute_base[ ATTR_STRENGTH  ] = 331;
    attribute_base[ ATTR_AGILITY   ] = 113;
    attribute_base[ ATTR_STAMINA   ] = 361;
    attribute_base[ ATTR_INTELLECT ] = 65;
    attribute_base[ ATTR_SPIRIT    ] = 109;

I couldn't personally tell you if those are for level 80 or 85 but as SimulationCraft's main Shaman coder was doing his testing on Beta I'd assume 85.

All of the Fire Elemental numbers in SimulationCraft are based off level 85 figures.

#616 Timetodance

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 06:17 AM

    attribute_base[ ATTR_STRENGTH  ] = 331;
    attribute_base[ ATTR_AGILITY   ] = 113;
    attribute_base[ ATTR_STAMINA   ] = 361;
    attribute_base[ ATTR_INTELLECT ] = 65;
    attribute_base[ ATTR_SPIRIT    ] = 109;

I couldn't personally tell you if those are for level 80 or 85 but as SimulationCraft's main Shaman coder was doing his testing on Beta I'd assume 85.


Those values for Feral Spirits look to be the values for 80 (at least the Strength and Agility). Basing this off the values that are currently in Rawr.Enhance (which I haven't updated yet - so pre 4.01 values)

#617 Rouncer

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 06:20 AM

Althor, that armor value looks really good. Thanks for the link. I had been testing with an axe with a damage split of 7 and had the DR at 31.55 putting the armor at 12016. They used gouge which doesn't have a damage split so their results should be much more accurate. We'll know for sure when someone can use beast lore on a boss but I trust that value from looking over their testing.

EDIT - actually that value was from beast lore (thanks Beasthawker) of a boss on the Beta, can't get any more precise then that.

#618 Jessamy

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 02:46 PM

Locking this thread. All future enhsim discussion should take place in the new Cataclysm discussion thread. With the launching of the new threads, rules will be aggressively enforced as per this announcement:

http://elitistjerks....taclysm_coming/




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