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WotLK Healing Compendium v3.3: Arthas' downfall!


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#401 littlejim

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 02:49 AM

I picked up Trauma recently and had a chance to really put it to the test last Friday as our guild's 25man progression group is learning BQL World of Logs. Sadly, we wiped 18 times, but 7 of those times we made it to the enrage timer, so there is a decent amount of data on the Fountain of Light proc.


I'd like to know why on try 18 you have 63 ticks of fountain of light credited to you, whereas the shaman Mokum has 564. At first, I thought that maybe you were healing range and he was on melee and thus were not getting the full benefit of the proc, due to its range. But looking at healing by actor, it appears that you healed the melee as much, if not more than him. Your combined direct heals + ticks is about 1000 total heals that could trigger the proc; his is about 1800. But, 1.8 times the number of eligible heals surely shouldn't warrant nearly 10 times the number of ticks? Looking at buffs cast, you cast fountain of light 11 times on this try; he cast it 89 times... I don't really have the time now to review all of your data for the night, but the results in the other try I checked of similar length (try 14) demonstrated a similar disparity. I've also noticed that my own trauma is not proccing nearly as much as a resto druid that I always raid with. Any ideas on a potential bug or heals that don't proc this weapon's effect? When I have more of my own logs I'll supply them...

As for the heroic Sindragosa discussion, one thing that needs to be noted is that don't have unchained magic needs to be factored in just as much as, if not more than the value of stats when you do have the debuff. Being able to cast more spells while not debuffed, before the next potential application of the debuff, is an important factor in evaluating haste for this fight. I am not convinced that these extra casts that you gain in the 30 second "safe zone" when you can chain cast will outweigh gemming spellpower just yet, but I haven't really had enough stable tries on the fight myself to fully evaluate my own logs.
A real application that our guild received:

7. Post a screenshot of your UI in a raid environment and explain any addons which are not displayed. (Make use of http://imgur.com to upload said image.)

file:///C:/Program%20Files%20(x86)/World%20of%20Warcraft/Screenshots/WoWScrnShot_111011_203123.jpg - i think you understand what everything is :P

#402 Janya

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 06:40 AM

Yes, trauma does seem to be extremely underwhelming for priests.

My trauma procs are constantly far below our resto shamans and druids (they can constantly get 500+ procs on boss fights... especially druids who are getting close to or over 1,000 ticks on Fountain of Light on various BQL kills).

After constantly getting at most a couple hundred ticks (in the very best cases ~1% of my healing) even when favoring large clumps like melee on BQL, I decided to drop it for a standard weap. Just too lackluster for Priests (And I assume Pallies too?) imo.

#403 Nurka

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 06:53 AM

Well I played holy for H Sindragosa tonight. Since I gem for sp/crit in yellow slots I am trying to compare my results with the top WMO EHPS rating priests who gem for haste. Granted our kill was only 7 minutes, and most of the parses from haste priests had 8-9 min kills (I didn't check that many tbh), I don't see them casting that much more spells than me even with the extra time. It is actually hard to analyze, I don't know how many debuffs they had, I got a few in last phase and I got blocked too, but I assume since they got the records, they didn't get as many too. The haste priest who had almost 200 more haste than me and around 10% less crit, had less EHPS and aprox same HPS as me. I don't think the difference is very significant in real scenario situations (not a theorycraft) between haste and crit. The haste looks better on paper, but I want to see REAL examples, I don't believe those people who say they can cast non-stop like robots and not miss fractions of seconds here and there (due to lag/moving/shiny things) that they gain from haste.

WMO: WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay
EHPS WMO priest ranking: WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay

#404 meddle

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 09:12 PM

It is actually hard to analyze, I don't know how many debuffs they had, I got a few in last phase and I got blocked too, but I assume since they got the records, they didn't get as many too. The haste priest who had almost 200 more haste than me and around 10% less crit, had less EHPS and aprox same HPS as me.


How is that statistically significant at all considering your priest partner was unchained four times to your one? It's not hard to "analyze," just click on the character on the list and go to his/her buffs/debuffs page to see their frequencies.

Haste is not going to shine on a fight like Sindragosa, especially if you're the target of unchained, as it's doing nothing for you if you aren't casting (whereas spell power and crit can benefit you while not casting). Chain-casting will stack your debuff higher, faster.

#405 tasha

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 10:15 PM

Haste/crit on sindra: Just a quick note.
Unstable magic is a true example of crit being better than haste. In P3, precast PoH to land after your stacks exploded, then CoH followed by PoM. Wait with 3 stacks and repeat. Haste helps very little (because you can precast) while crit helps more than when you renew spam. Of course this is a particular example, and I find haste more valuable than crit in most cases. But I don't understand why people say haste is better on unstable magic.

We are a healer class with cooldown spells. That's why I don't go pure haste like shamans. A non-negligeable part of our healing comes from PoM and CoH, which have poor scaling with haste. And to further play the devil's advocate, CoH's low healing value reduces the chance for crits to overheal. But anyway, this life-long discussion has reached a moot point since renew rose back up in ICC.


To Grouikette:

About LK's Necrotic Plague dispell mechanisms.
Did anyone of you encountered the same surprizing "Fail to Abolish Disease" on LK P1, and could help me to understand what happened exactly ?


It seems there is a small "fail" chance for dispel mechanisms (I think I read 3% somewhere, not sure). So the safest solution is to have two people doing it. I also suggest you to use Cleanses Disease instead of Abolish Disease for the LK fight. It will reduce the chance of having the plague bounce back and forth on people who are too slow, and it will prevent you from spending a GCD if someone has dispelled the plague just before you.

#406 Grouikette

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 08:41 PM

It seems there is a small "fail" chance for dispel mechanisms (I think I read 3% somewhere, not sure). So the safest solution is to have two people doing it. I also suggest you to use Cleanses Disease instead of Abolish Disease for the LK fight. It will reduce the chance of having the plague bounce back and forth on people who are too slow, and it will prevent you from spending a GCD if someone has dispelled the plague just before you.


Thanks for this interesting tip about the best way to dispell the plague on LK.
I think that the benefit will be double, because I believe I have found the reason why I sometimes obtain a "Fail to dispell". The tooltip of Abolish Disease says "Attempts to cure 1 disease effect on the target, and 1 more disease effect every 3 seconds for 12 sec.". So this is an attempt.
The tooltip of Cure Disease says "Removes 1 disease from the friendly target.". This should be more reliable !

#407 serrif

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 09:39 PM

Thanks for this interesting tip about the best way to dispell the plague on LK.
I think that the benefit will be double, because I believe I have found the reason why I sometimes obtain a "Fail to dispell". The tooltip of Abolish Disease says "Attempts to cure 1 disease effect on the target, and 1 more disease effect every 3 seconds for 12 sec.". So this is an attempt.
The tooltip of Cure Disease says "Removes 1 disease from the friendly target.". This should be more reliable !


Based on my observations (i.e. cure disease landing but not removing plague), that's not how it works. They both have a chance to fail to remove. Abolish is a buff, though, so regardless of success or failure it places the abolish buff which will make it try to remove a disease every 3 seconds. The chance to fail to remove is based on the level of the debuff (which is a function of the caster level: 83 for Lich King assuming a lvl 80 raider).

[21:24:39.446] Serrif casts Cure Disease  on  Morphian
[21:24:39.665] Serrif's Cure Disease fails to dispell Morphian's Necrotic Plague


#408 Glasswizard

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 08:56 AM

Haste/crit on sindra: Just a quick note.
Unstable magic is a true example of crit being better than haste. In P3, precast PoH to land after your stacks exploded, then CoH followed by PoM. Wait with 3 stacks and repeat. Haste helps very little (because you can precast) while crit helps more than when you renew spam. Of course this is a particular example, and I find haste more valuable than crit in most cases. But I don't understand why people say haste is better on unstable magic.


What mode of Sindragosa are you actually talking about? On hard mode 25 I don't cast at all if I get unstable magic, so I wouldn't care less if crit or haste is better. I'm only standing around anyway.

And regarding the haste vs crit discussion: I think most of the time raids have more than enough hps with the healers they bring. It's about the right heal at the right time and more haste lets you react faster to unpredictable situations. That's (for me) the main reason to play with a high haste rating.

#409 Guest_Amoenitas_*

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 01:39 PM

It's about the right heal at the right time and more haste lets you react faster to unpredictable situations. That's (for me) the main reason to play with a high haste rating.


This is exactly why I am also a big fan of haste. These unpredictable situations are the main reason for people dying (except those tries that are going to fail anyway). For constant hps we have the paladin for the tank plus the druid/discpriest/shaman for the raid. In my opinion it's the issue of us holy priests to react to spike damage.

To do this job, nothing is better than haste - even if you calculate with latency and server lags. And if there is nothing to heal, but you are getting close to the enrage timer - just burn your mana to deal the maybe crucial last 100k damage to the boss.

#410 Sinndir

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 03:30 AM

With the new link changes and my still not being able to raid due to my work schedule would anyone be interested in taking over the updating of the main page?

#411 tasha

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 06:11 PM

Thanks for this interesting tip about the best way to dispell the plague on LK.
I think that the benefit will be double, because I believe I have found the reason why I sometimes obtain a "Fail to dispell". The tooltip of Abolish Disease says "Attempts to cure 1 disease effect on the target, and 1 more disease effect every 3 seconds for 12 sec.". So this is an attempt.
The tooltip of Cure Disease says "Removes 1 disease from the friendly target.". This should be more reliable !


No. The tooltip is misleading.
Like Seriff pointed out, there is a small "fail" chance for all dispel mechanisms. The advantage of Cleanse Disease are only those I mentioned in my previous post.

About the haste topic, I'm sorry I bumped it (again). I only wanted to discuss Sindra hm. And yes I do heal if the raid is dangereously low (out of the group, and have to watch blistering cold cd). But again, I'll repeat myself, this is a minor situation where I find crit better than haste. I merely pointed that out because I don't think people should go full haste and assume crit does nothing. It's less good, but still needed in my opinion.

#412 Grouikette

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 11:49 AM

No. The tooltip is misleading.
Like Seriff pointed out, there is a small "fail" chance for all dispel mechanisms. The advantage of Cleanse Disease are only those I mentioned in my previous post.


All right, thank you (and Seriff too for the log evidence).

From my experience, I had zero failure using Cure, and several failures using Abolish on LK's Necrotic Plague (comparing more than 50 attempts for each case).
It maybe irrelevant and random, or it may reflect the existence of an additional source of failure for Abolish compared to Cure. I'm planning to test it deeply if I find a boss who cast many diseases and that can be fight easily with one healer and one tank.




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