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WotLK Healing Compendium v3.3: Arthas' downfall!


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#41 Kashir

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 11:04 PM

How are you using your serendipity stack? The only boss I've found a use for Prayer of Healing is Lady Deathwhisper P2, covering frostbolt volleys and the occasional melee fail at spirits. Otherwise the damage patterns just didn't support 3 or more people missing 5k+ hp in the same group at the same time. Especially while 2 healing 10 man as Holy with a Holy Paladin, I found myself dropping Serendipity stacks into Greater Heals on the tanks. The incoming damage is less spiky than it was (at least in the current easy mode), and I found I could consistently land hasted Greater Heals with little to no over-healing to help healing would get a little behind (Paladin impaled, Mark of the Fallen Champion, missed frostbolt interrupt, etc.)

The problem I have with this general approach is that in cases where there is a need to be a flexible healer (10 man raids are a great example), why would I be Holy? Holy excels when there's huge amounts of AOE damage flying around, in which case chances are good that I won't be able to help much with the tanks.

On any fight which calls for flexible healing, I simply swap to Disc; Penance and PWS are far superior for reactive healing than Serendipity + GH could ever hope to be.

The best case for a flexible Holy spec is if you're running with multiple Priests in a 10 man group; if you do, then speccing for Divine Fury and Empowered Healing is quite a reasonable decision.

#42 Furinaux

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 05:39 AM

The definition of efficiency, to me, is HPM, and by that measure Greater Heal is as efficient as Flash Heal (actually GH is slightly more efficient, and will scale better as we get ICC gear). Now we can argue about whether or not Greater Heal leads to more overheal than Flash Heal, but it's pretty difficult to prove either side of that argument. In the end though, the vast majority of posters here have expressed the same sentiment that they never have mana problems, so even if Greater Heal does overheal more and therefore is slightly less efficient, does it really matter?

I do still like to mix in the occasional Flash Heal when I'm tank healing, and with the T10 2-piece bonus I am sure I will continue to do so as it is a nice little bonus, but I certainly wouldn't consider it the kind of bonus that changes the way one plays (or the 4-piece for that matter).


Yes, I agree. Efficiency is HPM to me as well and GHeal actually is slightly more efficient even against a talented+glyphed FHeal. I suppose the word I should've used was "effectively" healing, AKA doing your part.

I don't have any anecdotal evidence, though, towards the overhealing argument, and just as you said, it's probably too difficult to prove regardless. I'd like to try the GHeal approach maybe someday and see how it works. FHeal just seems natural and has worked perfectly for me so far. Makes sense to use GHeal to overheal with if you aren't running out of mana, though.

#43 Lambi

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 09:31 AM

I almost never play as Holy so my views are merely what I see written by posters here whose opinions I respect. If ICC is changing how Holy priests use Greater Heal then I am out of the loop. My interest in the debate is how Disc priests utilize Greater Heal.


I gear solely for holy, but sometimes have to go disc. This means that with my holy playstyle I have a serious amount of haste (1020 currently). As disc with 1020 haste greater heal is just fast enough and packs so much more of a punch than flash heal does, so for me it just feels weird using flash heals on tanks in most situations.

This gearing is great for tank healing, but not optimal for raid shielding (not so much SP). With a little more crit I'd feel fine tank healing however and I think I can push out more throughput than most priests do here with their flash healing and intellect gemming and none of us go oom ;)
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#44 gakutomagnum

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 06:37 PM

Did they hotfix the Snowflake trinket yet? They announced they were putting a short internal cooldown on the trinket.

#45 Sinndir

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 09:53 PM

[quote name='gakutomagnum']Did they hotfix the Snowflake trinket yet? They announced they were putting a short internal cooldown on the trinket.[/QUOTE]

Yes it has been hotfixed already. CoH gave Xynthos (my guildmate) only 22 mana instead of 66.

[quote name='tedv']A comment on Test of Faith. This talent is not remotely mandatory. Even if you look at it purely from a probabilities stand point, each point has a 50% chance of giving 4% healing. That works out to 2% healing per point, making it better than Spiritual Healing, another mandatory talent. In practice though, someone most needs extra healing when they are below 50%, making this talent even better than Spiritual Healing.

I agree that Blessed Resilience is a situational talent that you may or may not want though. I personally take it by skipping some longevity talents like Healing Prayers. But I don't think it's fair to pose the question as "Should I take blessed resilience or test of faith?"
[/quote]

3% all the time is stronger than 12% 'some of the time'. Probability does not give Test of Faith a 50% chance to increase healing, it is really difficult to model the amount of time your healing target will be at or below 50% but it definitely is not half the time. I agree wholeheartedly that those who need the healing (sub 50%) get more healing, but at the same time the rate at which you're healing someone <50% health could be not as much as we may think.


[QUOTE=tedv;1485244
Surge of Light is a highly misunderstood talent. It doesn't give you a 25%/50% chance for each crit that occurs. Rather, the server checks if your spell generated any crits at all. If it did, you have a 25%/50% chance of proccing a surge of light.

For example, suppose you cast a Circle of Healing and gets 3 crits. With 1 point in surge of light, you have a 25% proc chance. With 2, your proc chance is 50%. With only 1 point, your odds are not (1 - .75^3) = 57%, and with 2 points they aren't 87%.

This makes the second point exactly as good as the first point, so I would be quite amazed to see a spec for which the first point was worth taking and the second wasn't. On the other hand, I'm sure you can kill bosses even if your talent spec has only 1/2 Surge of Light, or even 0/3 Test of Faith. That doesn't make it optimal though.[/QUOTE]

Do you have proof of this?

#46 Imua

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 10:05 PM

Can anyone show a parse from TOGC or ICC where GHeal is used more than like... 10% of the time?

If not, then I would think that alot of this argument about buffing GHeal, its efficiency, etc. is rather pointless. If you don't use the spell, why would you buff it?

I think that's the major point that alot of people are making - GHeal is currently rarely cast. Holy paladins simply have way too much throughput and efficiency in that regard. So landing a nuke like GHeal isn't needed right now.

(Of course, if someone shows me a parse where GHeal makes up a good portion of their healing, then we can actually analyze how much is overhealing, etc.)

#47 Senres

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 02:10 AM

Do you have proof of this?

I'd be very interested in knowing the answer to this. Anecdotally I seem to get Surge of Light procs after casting CoH or PoH way more often than I'd expect to if it were a coin flip.

#48 Seraphone

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 04:22 AM

So following the hotfix to the are we back to thinking that for pure regen remains the best trinket? In 25s I've experienced extremely few mana issues since Ulduar but in 10s they are a lot more common and I'm undecided which trinket to go for on longer fights.

Any thoughts on also? Works out at a minimum of 67mp5 and could increase beyond that depending on fight length. Plus it comes with a nice load of Spell Power too. It's naturally far inferior to both normal and heroic but is probably more accesible than both.

Can anyone show a parse from TOGC or ICC where GHeal is used more than like... 10% of the time?

If not, then I would think that alot of this argument about buffing GHeal, its efficiency, etc. is rather pointless. If you don't use the spell, why would you buff it?

I think that's the major point that alot of people are making - GHeal is currently rarely cast. Holy paladins simply have way too much throughput and efficiency in that regard. So landing a nuke like GHeal isn't needed right now.

(Of course, if someone shows me a parse where GHeal makes up a good portion of their healing, then we can actually analyze how much is overhealing, etc.)


Well in it's current state GHeal is rarely, if ever, worth casting. If it were to receive a buff however, such as reduced cast time or mana cast (whether talented or otherwise) then perhaps it would be more worth casting.

That said, GHeal is about where it should be in my eyes. It would be very overpowered to allow a Priest to spam a big heal like GHeal and while it's great we have access to it if we need it, it's not the main purpose of bringing a Priest to a raid to spam large single target heals.

#49 Furinaux

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 05:19 AM

(Of course, if someone shows me a parse where GHeal makes up a good portion of their healing, then we can actually analyze how much is overhealing, etc.)


I use FHeal and I spam it regardless of whether the tank is full health or not pretty frequently. I'd use GHeal in the same respect. As a result, the amount of overheal would largely be thrown towards your tank's clemency to avoidance on rainy days, in my situation.

Edit: Not to sound like it would be of no benefit to have no parses, lol.

#50 Kimina1

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 11:05 PM

I use FHeal and I spam it regardless of whether the tank is full health or not pretty frequently. I'd use GHeal in the same respect.


If you were to have the spare time/mana to spam a tank with GHeal, it sounds like you would have too many healers for the content. I personally do not see the point in even using a GHeal in a raid situation. I don't even have it on my bar. FH with DA procs are almost equal to what my GHeal would heal.

As a Disc raider, I typically assist tank healing with PW:S, Renew and PoM only. Tank healing is handled by the Paladins since that's what they are designed to do.

GHeal is now just another useless healing spell-- like Lesser Heal and Heal-- with the throughput of FH and Penance.

#51 Jessamy

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 03:01 PM

Q: But my Discipline spec is different from yours!?
A: There are very very few "optional" talent points in the Discipline spec. First, you are primarily a tank healer, so you have to go deep enough in Holy to pick up Inspiration. Secondly, you should love the bottom half of your tree, and take basically every talent in there. The only real "options" are to swap around the Spell Warding talents for 5/5 Divine Fury (though GHeal is not nearly as good as FH). If you wish, you can move the Focused Will points over to Holy and end up gaining 2 points in Improved Healing, saving a bit of mana on your Penance spell. It's not really worth it, but you can do it.

I read the thread and it seems that spell warding vs. divine fury is a discussion everyone is tired of. But I checked the disc specs of everyone posting in this thread on the armory, and I observed many different combinations of points in spell warding, divine fury, healing focus, and improved renew.

Is there a reason improved renew and healing focus aren't included in the cookie cutter spec?

#52 Expert47

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 03:21 PM

Ever since I made the transition from Holy to Discipline a couple months back I've been a huge fan of stacking Intellect. I gem Brilliant King's Amber and my trinkets are Talisman of Resurgence (128 Int) and Tears of the Vanquished (84 Int). This strategy has been working great for me in regards to my never ending supply of mana as I sit at just under 31k unbuffed and nearly break 36k in my 10M raiding guild's raids.

However, when we stepped into ICC the other night it seemed as though my infinite mana had finally met its match when my throughput was not enough to keep the tanks alive during the first boss! So, I've considered making the complete switch to geming and trinketing for SP, but after doing some quick math I wasn't too thrilled about what I saw...

If I went all Runed Cardinal Rubys and two easy to get SP trinkets (Lets say 111s) I would gain 475 SP and lose 432 Intellect!

While the trade off doesn't seem quite balanced to me, I was hoping to gain some insight from some more number savvy Priests out there. My regen is great; I never run out of mana, but as a tank healer I feel like I should get some more throughput.

Thanks for the input!

#53 tsigo

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 03:25 PM

It's pretty simple. You only need enough mana to not run out of it over a full fight, given things like shadowfiend, potion, Hymn of Hope, Mana Tide, and possibly Innervate. Anything beyond that is wasted and should be throughput.

Personally when I go Disc I don't even notice my mana bar, it's such a non-issue. I'd never gem for mana as Disc.

#54 Expert47

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 03:32 PM

Right Right. I've been considering making the change for a while now. I suppose one of the main things that has held back my transition from Intellect to SP is that I haven't had a very reliable 2nd healer in quite some time, so I've commonly had to pick up some slack in the healing department so I always liked the extra mana as a buffer.

But alas it may be time to both re-gem and recruit some new blood!

#55 Broshious

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 03:38 PM

It's pretty simple. You only need enough mana to not run out of it over a full fight, given things like shadowfiend, potion, Hymn of Hope, Mana Tide, and possibly Innervate. Anything beyond that is wasted and should be throughput.

Personally when I go Disc I don't even notice my mana bar, it's such a non-issue. I'd never gem for mana as Disc.


I find people saying this same thing over and over, and it seems to get accepted as just being true. I have to say that I don't quite agree, particularly as disc(because of shield spamming). You can ALWAYS cast more heals, and a fight can always take longer or people take more damage than usual because of mistakes.

I actually like to compare the idea that you don't need more mana to the idea that if you down a boss before the enrage timer you don't need more dps. Yes, technically you don't, but more dps means a shorter, safer fight with a larger margin of error. More mana means you can cast more heals for a safer fight, and last through a longer one.

#56 tsigo

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 03:46 PM

You can ALWAYS cast more heals, and a fight can always take longer or people take more damage than usual because of mistakes.


You can? During an ideal fight are you often standing around with nothing to cast? I'm not. There's always shields to cast even if no one's taking damage. So no, you can't just "cast more heals." And even with real, actual, non-stop casting, I don't run out of mana as Disc. Not even as Holy these days with all of the regeneration options.

#57 Senres

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 03:48 PM

I agree with you, Broshious, but stacking Intellect is completely unnecessary as Discipline. I don't gem for intellect and yet in my experience I have never run out of mana as Disc even though I rarely need to use my Shadowfiend/Hymn of Hope.

If you find you need to gem for intellect as a Discipline priest so that you have a comfortable amount of mana taking in to account just your Shadowfiend and Hymn of Hope, then you're probably doing something wrong...

#58 RamonKahn

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 07:25 PM

If you find you need to gem for intellect as a Discipline priest so that you have a comfortable amount of mana taking in to account just your Shadowfiend and Hymn of Hope, then you're probably doing something wrong...


On the other hand, if you cast Hymn of Hope, you also lose time to cast heals - If you are really casting heals through the whole fight, then you should probably not use the time to caste the Hymn. I personally dislike the Hymn because it's to stationary and the time can be used for something better (like shielding) instead of casting the Hymn since Mana has not really been any issue for my group at all.

How are you using your serendipity stack? The only boss I've found a use for Prayer of Healing is Lady Deathwhisper P2, covering frostbolt volleys and the occasional melee fail at spirits. Otherwise the damage patterns just didn't support 3 or more people missing 5k+ hp in the same group at the same time. Especially while 2 healing 10 man as Holy with a Holy Paladin, I found myself dropping Serendipity stacks into Greater Heals on the tanks.


But even if you use Serendipity and GHeal, the benefit of Divine Fury is reduced since you'll gain ~0.2s additional casttime for 5 talent points (0.5s gain multiplied by 36% faster cast = 0.18s). So using GHeal with Serendipity is an argument against Divine Fury, as far as I am concerned.

#59 Senres

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 07:37 PM

On the other hand, if you cast Hymn of Hope, you also lose time to cast heals - If you are really casting heals through the whole fight, then you should probably not use the time to caste the Hymn. I personally dislike the Hymn because it's to stationary and the time can be used for something better (like shielding) instead of casting the Hymn since Mana has not really been any issue for my group at all.

Are you honestly saying you can never find an opportune time to pop Hymn of Hope? If that's the case you are failing to manage your mana properly.

If you do get in a situation where you are dangerously low on mana but can't spare many GCDs, pop shadowfiend and channel Hymn of Hope for a single tick. That will almost certainly hit you with the +%mana buff which will greatly increase the returns from your shadowfiend. If you're really strapped and can only spare a single GCD, just pop shadowfiend. Shadowfiend alone provides tons of mana. If you really can't spare even a single GCD, pop a mana potion until you have a window of opportunity to use Shadowfiend/Hymn of Hope.

But again, I've got a stock pile of mana potions in the bank and I rarely need to pop a shadowfiend during a raid to keep my mana up. I fail to see what situations in current raiding content would require a Discipline Priest to stack intellect.

Edit: And if "Mana has not really been any issue for [your] group at all." then why would you ever stack intellect? Stack spellpower, crit, or haste depending on your playstyle and enjoy the higher throughput.

#60 Kimina1

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 08:29 PM

Ever since I made the transition from Holy to Discipline a couple months back I've been a huge fan of stacking Intellect. I gem Brilliant King's Amber and my trinkets are Talisman of Resurgence (128 Int) and Tears of the Vanquished (84 Int). This strategy has been working great for me in regards to my never ending supply of mana as I sit at just under 31k unbuffed and nearly break 36k in my 10M raiding guild's raids.

However, when we stepped into ICC the other night it seemed as though my infinite mana had finally met its match when my throughput was not enough to keep the tanks alive during the first boss! So, I've considered making the complete switch to geming and trinketing for SP, but after doing some quick math I wasn't too thrilled about what I saw...

If I went all Runed Cardinal Rubys and two easy to get SP trinkets (Lets say 111s) I would gain 475 SP and lose 432 Intellect!

While the trade off doesn't seem quite balanced to me, I was hoping to gain some insight from some more number savvy Priests out there. My regen is great; I never run out of mana, but as a tank healer I feel like I should get some more throughput.

Thanks for the input!


When you gem SP, you mainly want to be a raid Disc healer throwing shields left and right. However, since you said that you are a Disc tank healer, you might want to gem/gear the Holy Paladin way (Int/Haste/Crit/SP). If you feel like you are not getting enough throughput, just swap out 1 Int trinket for a SP trinket (Solace would be optimal). But it seems like you are on the right track with gems.

Though you don't get the SP from Intellect like a Holy Paladin, you will certainly be able to spam FHeal/GHeal to an extent before you need to use your Shadowfiend/Hymn of Hope/AT (Belf FTW)/Mana Potion.

I would definitely change your Disc spec to grab Divine Fury and Improved Healing to speed up your GHeal and reduce the mana cost. Drop Focused Will for the 3 points you will need for Improved Healing and go 1/2 Grace since you are tank healing which 50% proc will be more than sufficient. Also, I would take Revitalizing Skyflare over any other meta for the additional 3% healing crit effect which is amazing for getting extra DA procs.

Personally, I don't like Disc priests as MT healers. We do have tools that allow us to MT heal, but I feel that we are much stronger at preventing overall incoming raid damage than just sticking on 1 target. But, if I were to MT heal, that is what I would change.




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