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Retribution BiS Lists for 3.3


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#641 Exemplar

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 12:50 PM

I've seen at least a couple 'mastery stat is best' posts on various forums assuming the mastery stat on gear would affect all 3. How good mastery will be is hard to say. A lot will depend on how much the ilevel budget for mastery is. The few posts on the matter I've seen so far again assume that the budget will be the same as for str, but this isn't necessarily true. We might see 40Str gems and say 25mastery gems of the same quality. Still plenty of ways for blizzard to tweak the stat so it doesn't trump all the other stats we should be desiring. With blizzard having stated they don't like the 'one stat to rule them all', it would be a design mistake to now introduce a new stat that does just that.


Gems with "rating" stats match across the board. For example: 10 str/hit/crit/haste/etc are the same quality gems. Only spellpower and AP "break" this rule (with AP at double Str or Agi levels, which makes perfect sense mechanics-wise). There is no reason to break this convention.

If Mastery is considered "too powerful" they can tweak it at two other places - rating to Mastery value/% or in the talent trees themselves.

It takes 45 crit rating for 1% crit, but only 32 hit rating for 1% hit. 1 Crit Rating and 1 Hit Rating have the same "cost" on gear. Mastery can easily have some other conversion factor. Mastery too good for everyone? Require more rating per 1%. Not good enough? Reduce the rating.

If this does not fully balance every class/spec then they'll just tweak the 1% Mastery to Talent Tree bonus conversion. Say conversion is 1% Mastery for .25% Holy Damage increase (arbitrary number). Ret's too weak? Make 1% Mastery .27% Holy Damage. Too Strong? Make 1% only .22% Holy Damage.

They have 2 very good knobs to turn for very detailed changes, why would they alter gems?

Any posts you have seen have been working off of the numbers currently active in Beta testing. Which are, as we all know, subject to change. Unless/until they do change, they are valid comparisons.
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#642 Zalinda

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 03:56 PM

Any posts you have seen have been working off of the numbers currently active in Beta testing. Which are, as we all know, subject to change. Unless/until they do change, they are valid comparisons.


O.o Did I miss the "Cataclysm has gone beta post" (and miss the beta keys handouts, again) ? I thought it was only the F&F alpha so far.

#643 Grandlo

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 05:12 PM

Apparently as of version 2.3.19 of rawr they added a new trigger to support porper modeling of TIJ and Shadowmourne. Might be good to update the values. The value is definitly higher than the ops approximation as expected. As for everyone talking about this new RS trinket. It seems to be only 20-30ish dps increase from death verdict to me it seems like a waste to take over some of the other classes in the game. It's also gonna be hard to get too, lots of other classes will be burning dkp for that thing hardcore lol. i'd save the DKP for the boots/neck from RS those two upgrades together are like 300+ dps and you can swap out the hit neck with those nice boots. I know this is BIS thread so there no question it belongs here just saying probably the first upgrade to burn that dkp on is boots for sure.

#644 Zurm

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 06:00 PM

It seems to be only 20-30ish dps increase from death verdict to me it seems like a waste to take over some of the other classes in the game.


While this is a good point to keep in mind for any ret pally (since you are effectively hurting your guild by taking this over someone who makes better use of it), as Glutton pointed out the last time we had this arguement (and I was on your side that time), it's not really a valid arguement in a best-in-slot thread. If it's better by even 1 DPS, it belongs here.

Plus, come 4.0, that passive armor penetration is going to be converted into haste rating, which greatly increases the value of the trinket.
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#645 frmorrison

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 11:32 PM

The OP is modified for Ruby Sanctum by having a separate list that shows the substitutions with the new items introduced. Someone later I will combine the lists.

The current Rawr says the 271 ArP trinket is 12 dps better than 245 Death's Choice. I may list both trinkets in the Normal mode list since they are so close in power.

#646 Zulizza

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 02:40 PM

I got 14952 as Alliance with using over and also using Haste/Str gems with Judge>DS>CS>Cons>HoW>Exo

Ret BIS Alliance.xml

#647 frmorrison

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 11:27 PM

I just noticed I didn't list the normal mode plate list for upgrades of Neck/Boot, so I added that.

I am unsure if I should combine the lists. If someone thinks I should, I could replace the ICC item with the RS item and then list the ICC item to the right.

#648 YouForgotPoland

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 07:17 AM

The ret thread disappeared and I was tinkering with (n) sharpened twilight scale (the FAQ in this thread shows h sts > h dc > h wfs > n dc > n sts but the OP of the thread clarifies in the last page that n sts is a very small upgrade over n dc, threw me off) which shows as a DPS upgrade in rawr for my gear, but I plugged it into simcraft to find out that sts isn't recognized.

A few minutes of figuring out how it worked and I got these lines for anyone who wants to be able to model them in simcraft:

trinket2=sharpened_twilight_scale,stats=163arpen,equip=onattackhit_1304ap_35%_15dur_45cd
trinket2=sharpened_twilight_scale,heroic=1,stats=184arpen,equip=onattackhit_1472ap_35%_15dur_45cd

#649 dustdog

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 07:28 AM

The ret thread still exists, it's just been inactive for awhile, you need to adjust the display options at the bottom.

Thanks for the values!

#650 dustdog

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 07:33 AM

mispost, please delete

#651 whitestrips

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 04:32 PM

I'm not sure when the change occurred, but with Shadowmourne equiped, rawr shows switching the gem in Shadowvault Slayer’s Cloak, Band of the Bone Colossus, and Ashen Band of Endless Vengeance to Inscribed to pick up the +4 agility bonus as a dps increase if you move the expertise gem elsewhere. I’ve tested this with both my toon and the “Heroic All Items Priority List” list. Is anyone else experiencing these results and believe they are accurate? Might +4 agility bonuses be worth picking up along with +4 str in single yellow sockets when using a Shadowmourne?

Edit: Bryntroll and Glorenzelg, the other str based weapons show to keep the bold in yellow sockets, not sure why shadowmourne is different.

#652 frmorrison

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 04:48 PM

Rawr shows that a 4 agility socket bonus (using Inscribed over Bold) is better if you have a Shadowmourne and TAJ, but the difference in the dps gain is less than 2 I pretty much ignore it because it is too small to notice.
In 4.0, you will need more crit rating to for the same crit as today, so using Bold will be better then.

#653 seemore

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 05:29 PM

Rawr shows that a 4 agility socket bonus (using Inscribed over Bold) is better if you have a Shadowmourne and TAJ, but the difference in the dps gain is less than 2 I pretty much ignore it because it is too small to notice.
In 4.0, you will need more crit rating to for the same crit as today, so using Bold will be better then.


Forgive me if I'm wrong, but if Inscribed is better with SM and TAJ it should be mentioned in the OP. 2 DPS isn't much but it is still better, and I think the purpose of this thread is to advise the best available.
How much crit you will need in 4.0 is a bit irrelevant, cause this is aimed at 3.3.
If you think of 4.0 now you may as well remove the AGI items cause they will be useless for a ret then.

#654 frmorrison

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 11:43 PM

If you think of 4.0 now you may as well remove the AGI items cause they will be useless for a ret
then.


I disagree with Rawr that an Inscribed with 4 agility bonus gives 1-2 dps, so I am not changing it. It is too close to call either way.
I certainly will not be removing the Agility items. This thread can stand as a testament for what was good back in good old patch 3.3. For people playing in 4.0 and beyond, it is worth downgrading a few Tiers to drop the Agility pieces for Plate so you get the 5% strength bonus.

#655 Rennadrel

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 11:39 PM

This subject has been touched in one of the earlier BiS topics. The benefit of Exp capped is less RNG. It does indeed seem that (according to Rawr), on the long run favoring str over exp is more dps, but the difference is so little that it's recommended to cap it.


This makes me wonder about the following then. Looking at the BIS list and comparing it to what Rawr says in regards to rings, I am wondering which is the proper ring choice for a hard mode raider who probably won't see a 25 LK kill. Rawr says BIS is Ashen Band of Endless Vengeance and Seal of Many Mouths (heroic) in terms of pure DPS output. Looking at how much Crit you gain from Seal of Many Mouths agility stat, you may get more damage from Might of Blight, but less Crit and having a useless stat like Armor Pen seems kind of useless doesn't it? Plus you gain expertise which pretty much guarantees that with a 4 set Tier 10 you will be at cap with Seal of Many Mouths along with almost 2% crit. If my calculations are correct, you gain 1.98% crit from the Agility while you only gain 1.35% crit from the straight green stat on Might of Blight, however you only get about half the damage output.

So if what you are saying is true about Expertise having a higher value until capped, then Seal of Many Mouths is a superior item for that fact alone, plus gaining more Crit and not having a useless green stat like Armor Pen. I read back a few pages and that is what I have gathered, however some professional opinions on this would be wonderful. Is Rawr correct in this case or is Might of Blight still the BIS item of choice?

#656 Capstone

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 11:58 PM

Rawr is quite accurate for ret paladins, which is why it Rawr sims are the system of choice for determining BiS. Disagreeing with Rawr is rather pointless unless you have the math to show why you are right and Rawr is wrong.

As far as I know, the only time you might deviate from Rawr is in the case of proc items such as TAJ, Shadowmourne, Bryntroll, etc; the model for such proc items has historically been difficult to tweak properly.

#657 Rennadrel

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 12:04 AM

Yeah I have noticed that too, it's so hard to gauge how those procs are modeled in terms of pure damage. But if Seal of Many Mouths is the true BIS on Rawr, it looks like I will be gunning for that one.

#658 Zalinda

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 07:56 AM

There's nothing necessarily wrong with disagreeing with any sort of gear valuation tool, at least, if you have a good motivation as to why. Rawr is good, but it also has it's flaws.

For Hit and Exp, they're typically valued higher than Rawr seeminly indicates.
The thing you have to realise is how Rawr does it's thing. It basically just models a long uninterrupted fight, and there aren't a whole lot of those out there these days. You tend to be retargetting a lot, and in such a case, missing a SoV stack up can be a noticable hit (pun intended) on your DPS done.

Crit doesn't really shine untill you get 5 stacks of SOV up on a target. Again, since Rawr models a single nonstop patchwork type combat. Any fight with retargettign will decrease the value of crit and increase the value of str/ap/haste by a bit for each additional retargetting. In that respect, I think frmorrison is correct in saying that picking up a 4agi bonus for that extra bit crit isn't going to pay off in the fights that matter.

TAJ seems to be implemented properly. It increases dps, and it also feeds back into increasing DPS of any sort of melee hit proc because of the extra weaponswings.
Shadowmourne is off (and this is documented in the FAQ), if you want to get it closer to real valuation, change it from meleehit to meleeattack.

#659 Rennadrel

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 10:50 PM

Interesting points and I certainly agree about target swapping fights. People wonder why my DPS is so terrible on some bosses, but high on others, well it's because getting stacks up to 5 takes time and for some reason I have no problem doing it as a tank but as Ret it takes a bit longer, possibly because of slower weapon speed being a factor. But I do have a lot of melee haste, 2.88 weapon speed outside of raid. I was always under the impression that haste benefits our GCD but would it be better to stick with regular WFS over Herkuml War Token for most cases where you have to target switch and move?

#660 Aurrius

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 11:22 PM

The War Token generally loses its stacks very easily, so in most cases it's better to stick with Whispering Fanged Skull. On fights like Festergut or Saurfang, HWT might actually win out, though.

As far as I'm aware, haste does not affect melee/ranged GCD, but only spell GCD (Consecration, Exorcism, Holy Wrath).




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