Jump to content


Photo

Are we all Elitist Jerks?


  • Please log in to reply
134 replies to this topic

#21 Praetorian

Praetorian

    Mike Tyson

  • ♦ Administrators
  • 27,761 posts

Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:15 PM

If someone is the most skilled player you've ever seen but is a complete prick you're not going to recruit them
If someone is the nicest person you've ever met but is absolutely terrible and won't help your guild at all you're not going to recruit them (except maybe as a mascot).

So you have to weigh skill vs personality, how is this *not* a balancing act? Yes, there are skilled players who are nice people, but that isn't the case with all your applicants.

Well, you can teach skill, to an extent. You can't teach attitude. If someone is a raging asshole, you're not going to change them over the internet. If someone has a great attitude but is not the best of players, that can be improved. Obviously yeah, some people are just hopeless, but those are a slim minority.

#22 Siddown

Siddown

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 408 posts

Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:15 PM

I've noticed the ego complex seems to run much deeper with alliance on our server, and notably a few of the top worldwide alliance guilds - but aside from that its quite possible to have a guild that does well that isn't full of assholes.

I think you probably have to cut the "top worldwide alliance guilds" a bit of slack. The time you see them is on the WoW forums, like the R&D forums where they constantly get critized about any and everything they do. People troll their DKP sites and post what loot went to who, eventhough they have gone farther than 99.999% of the population in the game. They get their backs up a bit, but that's because the massive amount of Abuse they take.

True, some of them kind of ask for it a bit, but overall they're probably good people (at least to each other), and when you read between the lines, you can see that most of them will do anything that is asked of them for their guild. Overall, I've found Horde to be a little bit more "jerk free" than Alliance, but that could also be population imbalance. Who knows.

#23 Proeliata

Proeliata

    Soda Popinski

  • Guild Members
  • 3,275 posts

Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:17 PM

I first came across the term maskirovka in a Clancy novel (Red Storm Rising maybe?) so who knows. It's a cool word/concept, however.

Ah, I had no idea it was mentioned in English novels. (I hadn't thought of it as particularly cool though--it just means camouflage/costume (costuming? Not sure what the gerund of costume would be) to me. How did Clancy explain it?)

Another thing that I've noticed, often in the past in my guild we would stand some asshat simply because "Well, we need another rogue/druid/priest here." That's also a pretty terrible way to build up a raid... A player who makes the raid feel bad or lowers morale is worse than no player at all. No drama queens. No assholes. No people who think they know everything. Beyond that, you're good, if the people you have also have a desire to improve.

#24 Quigon

Quigon

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 2,175 posts

Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:17 PM

If figuring out what went wrong after a wipe degenerates into bickering and a blame game (because, of course, Elitist Jerks never do anything wrong and it's always someone else's fault) things will get derailed in a hurry.

Requoting because at the top end this is the best nugget of advice in the entire thread. Rambo looks like a badass in that bandana, and he can kill shit good, but he isn't going to turn the tide by himself. This game is about teamwork, in the raid, and outside of it.

Mature and dependable players will always win out over the rogue who considers himself god's gift to skill/pvp (you know the type).

#25 Ghostz

Ghostz

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 457 posts

Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:17 PM

It depends on what you consider being an elitist jerk and what you want from the game.

Even the nicest people get fed up sometimes. If someone consistently misses the jump on Thaddius then runs in and zaps half your raid on 80% of your tries, you can't expect people that haven't made a mistake all night to keep saying "its alright, we'll go at it again" wipe after wipe. It just gets frustrating after a certain point and someone's bound to call them out. Does that make them elitist jerks? Depends on your point of view.

#26 Pontiac

Pontiac

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 95 posts

Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:18 PM

This actually happened in my guild. We had a new player come in from a different raiding guild who had the best work ethic and highest level of skill and knowledge of his class by a fair margin, but was such a raging jackass that within a few weeks he was basically given an ultimatum by the officers to either play well with others or find a new home. Happily, he did take the comment to heart and things worked out and now he's a valuble part of our raid force.

To be fair tho, we've had other people who came in with the same attitude and less skill, who got the same ultimatum and couldn't work it out. They didn't last long.

#27 Maskirovka

Maskirovka

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 105 posts

Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:19 PM

and being on loatheb/gothik you're not exactly "progressing slowly." You describe a mature guild situation that also is doing extremely well.

Thanks, I just meant to point out that we might be able to progress a bit faster if we were more cutthroat and replaced some of the people who tend to cause problems, but then we wouldn't be who we are.


Maskirovka--are you Russian?

I first came across the term maskirovka in a Clancy novel (Red Storm Rising maybe?) so who knows. It's a cool word/concept, however.

Yep...got it from the Tom Clancy book Red Storm Rising ...it was the word the Russian general used to describe his uber plan to deceive the West. I think the word literally translates as 'camoflage'. I've used that nick forever (cs, forums, email, etc), but it didn't exactly fit into a WoW character name, hence my profile being different =p

#28 Kasi

Kasi

    Soda Popinski

  • Members
  • 3,454 posts

Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:19 PM

Quigon, I think there is quite a range of attitudes. The talk here has tailed into that of the assholes. Yes loot whores and assholes who try to ruin the guild/atmosphere are one thing. And for sure those people aren't ones I want around. But what I'm talking about is a guild atmosphere of elitism and arrogance that you're better than other people/guilds out there. So not much eltitism on an individual level, but on a guild level. You can see this to an extent on how pugs are looked upon by most people here and on FOH. Some people would rather cut off a finger than run with a pug, because of the perception of what the average pug is. Although the catch 22 there is that pugs are often the best way to find new people. But each horrible experience with a pug reinforces the divide between your guild/friends and the rest of the people on the server.

#29 Praetorian

Praetorian

    Mike Tyson

  • ♦ Administrators
  • 27,761 posts

Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:21 PM

I first came across the term maskirovka in a Clancy novel (Red Storm Rising maybe?) so who knows. It's a cool word/concept, however.

Ah, I had no idea it was mentioned in English novels. (I hadn't thought of it as particularly cool though--it just means camouflage/costume (costuming? Not sure what the gerund of costume would be) to me. How did Clancy explain it?)

Google says:

The Soviet Military Encyclopaedia defines maskirovka thus: "The means of securing combat operations and the daily activities of forces; a complexity of measures, directed to mislead the enemy regarding the presence and disposition of forces, various military objectives, their condition, combat readiness and operations, and also the plans of the commander... maskirovka contributes to the achievement of surprise for the actions of forces, the preservation of combat readiness and the increased survivability of objectives." It permeates down to the lowest tactical level and includes all measures, active and passive, designed to deceive the enemy. Although the word is sometimes translated as 'camouflage', this belies its much broader meaning which includes: concealment (skrytie), imitation using decoys and dummies (imitasiia), manoeuvres intended to deceive (demonstratinvnye manevry) and disinformation (dezinformatsiia). - source: Jon Latimer, Deception in War, The Overlook Press, Woodstock & New York 2001

Sorry for the derail.

#30 Quigon

Quigon

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 2,175 posts

Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:23 PM

Man this is a great thread - amazing how these just pop up and take off.


Pontiac, I'd be careful... the ultimatums generally don't work out. When its attitude, that generally will be there for a lifetime. As praetorian already mentioned, its hard to teach attitude.

I used ot just kick straight up when people were drama whores or assholes... I gave a few people "chances" or ultimatums and it always bit me in the ass. I've gone back to being a tyrant about drama, but our members seem to enjoy the atmosphere it creates in the end... One person can ruin the game for everyone else; you might be shocked how many people quit this game cause of 1 interaction... and 60 members in a handshake problem is a metric fuckton of interactions to deal with.

Ghostz: I agree, but we're also qualifying things. Everyone will blow up; the best leader will have his bad nights and get more upset here or there... but when we're talking about assholes and whatnot, its the type that is like that nonstop, or just gets on people's nerves... or has no concept of fitting in or diplomacy.


Part of the problem here was already mentioned - the anonymity of the internet grossly inflates some people's personalities or egos... and it can turn an otherwise nice guy into a flaming jackass. As long as people mutually respect each other, are mature, and DO NOT DEHUMANIZE the other players, anyone can make it happen.

#31 Praetorian

Praetorian

    Mike Tyson

  • ♦ Administrators
  • 27,761 posts

Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:25 PM

It depends on what you consider being an elitist jerk and what you want from the game.

Even the nicest people get fed up sometimes. If someone consistently misses the jump on Thaddius then runs in and zaps half your raid on 80% of your tries, you can't expect people that haven't made a mistake all night to keep saying "its alright, we'll go at it again" wipe after wipe. It just gets frustrating after a certain point and someone's bound to call them out. Does that make them elitist jerks? Depends on your point of view.

Obviously. Few things are black and white. I'm sure if you think of your guild -- any guild pretty much -- you can name some people who are more patient and conciliatory in their approach to the game and to interacting with others, and you can name some people who are more prone to get defensive or hostile in the face of adversity. No group is going to be perfectly homogenous, nor would you really want that, but if you're looking to build a cohesive unit (as well as a group that's fun to play with) I think most people in the thread here are in agreement that you need to draw the line on attitude somewhere, "skill" be damned.

#32 Quigon

Quigon

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 2,175 posts

Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:25 PM

Quigon, I think there is quite a range of attitudes. The talk here has tailed into that of the assholes. Yes loot whores and assholes who try to ruin the guild/atmosphere are one thing. And for sure those people aren't ones I want around. But what I'm talking about is a guild atmosphere of elitism and arrogance that you're better than other people/guilds out there. So not much eltitism on an individual level, but on a guild level. You can see this to an extent on how pugs are looked upon by most people here and on FOH. Some people would rather cut off a finger than run with a pug, because of the perception of what the average pug is. Although the catch 22 there is that pugs are often the best way to find new people. But each horrible experience with a pug reinforces the divide between your guild/friends and the rest of the people on the server.

Its elitist to not roll with a pug?

Thats just statistics, PUGs generally take much longer to complete. I value my time, thats not elitist.

I know i'm nitpicking your one example, but I don't think "staying in the guild" is elitist.

Most people don't interact with those outside of their guild REGARDLESS of their guilds progress. Niche isn't elitism imo... although it may appear that way as the guild improves. The cool kids club is just business as normal right?

#33 Proeliata

Proeliata

    Soda Popinski

  • Guild Members
  • 3,275 posts

Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:25 PM

Yep...got it from the Tom Clancy book Red Storm Rising ...it was the word the Russian general used to describe his uber plan to deceive the West. I think the word literally translates as 'camoflage'. I've used that nick forever (cs, forums, email, etc), but it didn't exactly fit into a WoW character name, hence my profile being different =p

Oh, snap. Too bad, I've found surprisingly few Russian people in this game (the only one that I know of was kind of a royal asshole, too). Perhaps they're all on the EU servers.

Quigon, I think there is quite a range of attitudes. The talk here has tailed into that of the assholes. Yes loot whores and assholes who try to ruin the guild/atmosphere are one thing. And for sure those people aren't ones I want around. But what I'm talking about is a guild atmosphere of elitism and arrogance that you're better than other people/guilds out there. So not much eltitism on an individual level, but on a guild level. You can see this to an extent on how pugs are looked upon by most people here and on FOH. Some people would rather cut off a finger than run with a pug, because of the perception of what the average pug is. Although the catch 22 there is that pugs are often the best way to find new people. But each horrible experience with a pug reinforces the divide between your guild/friends and the rest of the people on the server.

I think most people who are guilded look on PUGs with somewhat of a holy terror though; it's not just a matter of guild level elitism. With your guildies, at least there's a bit of quality control. With an "u goin 2 ubrs?" pug... there really isn't. I don't even view that as elitism, if it's just a "Man, I hate PUGs" kind of attitude. If your guild members are completely unwilling to do a run if it's not a guild run, though, it may be a problem. Sometimes you have to PUG stuff, and being completely isolated from the rest of your server might not serve you well in the long run if you recruit. :)

Gurgthock: Obviously I need to brush up on my military Russian.

#34 Quigon

Quigon

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 2,175 posts

Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:33 PM

I hate to make stereotypes nezralix, but it just seems to me there are a lot more retards on alliance than horde... and this isn't due to the population imbalance, I mean a disproportionate amount. Back in the day this was particularly obvious with open world matchups...

Maybe i'm way off base here, i'm also talking about generality - at the top end alliance guilds are exceptional and obviously as good or better than horde. This isn't an attack on raid guilds or OMG BLESSINGS... just general alliance populace. RACISM!

#35 Siddown

Siddown

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 408 posts

Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:33 PM

I'm echo the "Not wanting to go in a PUG doesn't mean you're elitest" view. We've all done that 3 hours UBRS run where things item's get ninja'd, people leave after getting to Rend because they didn't get their Dal'Rend, etc., etc.

Although, I think prior to your final gear up to MC or ZG that everyone should be forced to PUG a few times. You might meet some good, skilled players who are just in a small guild and like you, are being forced to PUG. Those friendships can develop, and before you know, you've got some new guild mates.

#36 Maskirovka

Maskirovka

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 105 posts

Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:34 PM

The derail was a pro one, but yes...we should keep a great thread like this on track.

and 60 members in a handshake problem is a metric fuckton of interactions to deal with.

Excellent way of putting it. I've seen exactly what you mean by people quitting the game because of one interaction WAY too many times, and it's always the assholes who make the nice, good, players leave......and this usually means you resent the asshole even more, possibly losing 2 players in the process.

As long as people mutually respect each other, are mature, and DO NOT DEHUMANIZE the other players, anyone can make it happen.

Completely agree here as well. When I recruit new players (at least recently...we all learn as we go) I always tell them not to disappear into obscurity. I tell them that if they want to be successful, they have to interact with their new guildmates as much as possible. It's way too easy for new people to hole up and never talk. If they never interact, they're just "that guy". They become too easily dehumanized by others, including possibly myself if I'm not constantly careful to try and give people the benefit of the doubt....at least at first.

edit: added the "at least at first" =p

#37 Brick

Brick

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:34 PM

Brick: Merging players like that is going to cause problems regardless of your skill level.

I won't disagree with you. It's bound to result in all sorts of issues.

Part of the issue, notably with a new server, is the recruitment pool is relatively shallow -- being Horde on a PvE server somewhat compounding the problem. We didn't have the luxury of having a dearth of folks that had well-aligned mentalities to pre-form with a reasonably sized roster.

Additionally, we weren't hesitant on following up on policies. The first 3 weeks would appear as if I was cutting bloody swathes through the roster -- axing literally dozens of people who weren't online for over a week, or were too busy in Level 19 WSG instead of meeting our level requirements. I'm aware that several of our members found it a bit unsettling, but the vast majority know why it had to occur. Things are stabilizing now, but we're still expecting attrition of 1-2 folks a week for the next month.

-----

How do you handle the wee ones amongst the titans? Yeah, not simple. We're hitting ZG this upcoming weekend, and MC/Onyxia in two weeks (with the intention of full clears that week and getting FR prepped for Vael). Currently I've been taking advantage of 5-man instances and UBRS to gauge player skill and to at the very least make notes. Folks however have been approached with constructive suggestions, and many seem to ask on their own -- whether officers or their peers.

Again, there's that shallow recruitment pool, which is quickly absorbed by several other guilds with similar intentions sponging up talent. Momentum is everthing we've learned -- and we're hoping that quick success in the MC will again result in talent from other guilds looking to come on board. Realistically, I'll have some dead-weight and folks who can't do par for the course for some time -- I'm just looking to address those issues as quickly as I can (which will include removal from the guild) until I can get more quality folks on baord. Until then, yes, I do anticipate the skilled folks calling out the greenies at times. They just need to be constructive about it, and we need to be on the ball in swapping more skilled players into the raid, and at least giving an attempt to get the novices up to speed.

-----

Is my plan guaranteed? Hell no. If anything, I'm still more likely to fail than not. However it won't stop me from trying my damnedest.

#38 malthrin

malthrin

    stalemate associate

  • Moderators
  • 9,107 posts

Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:35 PM

Well, you can teach skill, to an extent. You can't teach attitude. If someone is a raging asshole, you're not going to change them over the internet. If someone has a great attitude but is not the best of players, that can be improved. Obviously yeah, some people are just hopeless, but those are a slim minority.

That's not 100% true. In my guild we have a 15-year old Mage who is possibly the most annoying person you could ever have on vent - he has (or had, rather) the tendency to make a suggestion, usually bad, and assert it loudly and repetitively. He's also got one of those voices that just gets under your skin. He was actually kicked from my roommate's guild a few months back just for being obnoxious and whiny, despite that guild being pinched by a low-attendance period.

I didn't think he'd last long as a trial, but with some advice and warnings from our GM (I'm assuming), and judicious use of the gkick and global mute arsenal, he's actually improving. He's always been a pretty solid Mage and he's slowly becoming a solid member of the team. It's heartwarming in a way, just think how bitter he'd grow up if he was always shunned because of his personality ;) While I'm sure his youth has quite a bit to do with it, you CAN teach attitude.
Lampkin in EJBSG 28 | Anders in EJBSG 24 | Cavil in EJBSG 20
Boomer in EJBSG 19 | Roslin in EJBSG 17 | Roslin in EJBSG 13 | Roslin in EJBSG 8
MTG Online draft viewer

#39 Zagzil

Zagzil

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 445 posts

Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:38 PM

Just on PUGs- how is it elitist to want to run a small group instance with people you know and trust over people you don't know and don't trust? Seems like common sense to me.

Like Gurgthock has posted before - raid guilds are like sports teams, and every league has their own Yankees.

#40 Fres

Fres

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 219 posts

Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:41 PM

judicious use of the gkick and global mute arsenal

So you haven't really taught him anything, you're just selectively ignoring his personality?
Posted Image




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users