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Are we all Elitist Jerks?


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#41 thebuddha

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:42 PM

Perhaps a different strategy that I describe below should be used for the "top guilds" since when competing for world firsts time plays a large factor. By which I mean, you wouldn't always have the luxury of spending a bit more time working with a player.

When I look at recruiting I choose either of the following players:

A) Naturally skilled with good attitude and mature social skills (obvious choice)

B) Not yet skilled with good attitude and mature social skills, but good potential i.e. eager to improve

I think many people underestimate the ability for someone to improve given some 1 on 1 time from a more knowledgable player. I've seen many raiders drastically improve their performance with some counsling on gear/spec/encounter optimizations. The same players that were initially labled as "terrible." And in the end, that player will be much more loyal and dedicated than the skilled "hardcore" raider that will jump ship at the first opportunity.

That is not to say, though, that there are not times when people are just beyond any help. Then, it's time to cut your losses. I guess that's more of a judgement call.

#42 Quigon

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:42 PM

Malthrin: I used ot be a raging asshole when I was 15 also - playing DooM 2 and totally raging on n00bs... but yeah, some of that is probably growing up. Between 15-18 people change a LOT in their ability to deal with others.

#43 Ghostz

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:43 PM

Just on PUGs- how is it elitist to want to run a small group instance with people you know and trust over people you don't know and don't trust? Seems like common sense to me.

Like Gurgthock has posted before - raid guilds are like sports teams, and every league has their own Yankees.

Does every league have its own Rangers?

#44 malthrin

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:43 PM

judicious use of the gkick and global mute arsenal

So you haven't really taught him anything, you're just selectively ignoring his personality?

Nah, they're effective ways of letting him know he's going too far. Negative feedback, in the psychology sense. He still can be abrasive from time to time, but rarely anymore to the point that he gets muted.
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#45 Maskirovka

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:48 PM

I was going to bring up the same thing, Malthrinn. We've had several players who started out to be total dickwads and are now productive members. Sure they still tend to have some underlying selfishness still, but I believe it's mostly due to being young. We've never recruited an older player (most of our guild is college+ age) who turned out to be an asshole that I can remember.

Though, I agree that you can't teach attitude in a serious way, but you can definitely make that person understand that their attitude is unacceptable and won't be tolerated. It can change a lot more than you think, though like I hinted...they're not going to be your #1 herb farmer, and they probably won't pass any loot.

Of course it's not foolproof, and some people are just flat-out worthless people who can't be molded at all...but that's what /gkick is for.

#46 Cedric

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:53 PM

When I look at recruiting I choose either of the following players:

A) Naturally skilled with good attitude and mature social skills (obvious choice)

B) Not yet skilled with good attitude and mature social skills, but good potential i.e. eager to improve

I think many people underestimate the ability for someone to improve given some 1 on 1 time from a more knowledgable player. I've seen many raiders drastically improve their performance with some counsling on gear/spec/encounter optimizations. The same players that were initially labled as "terrible." And in the end, that player will be much more loyal and dedicated than the skilled "hardcore" raider that will jump ship at the first opportunity.

When it comes to B...I don't know how everyone else feels about this but, to me, becoming effective and being capable of adapting quickly in the wow raiding game isn't some monumental task. If you have average intelligence almost everything in this game should come fairly quick and fairly easy to you. If someone wants to join a guild to raid and can't comprehend a fight's mechanics after a few days then there is a huge problem there. I don't care how eager someone is to improve, if they can't improve fairly quickly they just don't cut it. If wow involved having people complete transcendental math functions then it would be understandable, but almost everything besides the actual job of creating strategies seems like something akin to doing mcdonalds-level labor. I've heard and experienced a multitude of the "they're not that good but they're willing to learn!(and a girl too most likely)" and I'd rather have some immature player who is good at what they're doing and capable of being an asshole without compromising raid execution than the very eager players who can't understand how heal correctly after being told countless times.

#47 malthrin

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:54 PM

I think many people underestimate the ability for someone to improve given some 1 on 1 time from a more knowledgable player. I've seen many raiders drastically improve their performance with some counsling on gear/spec/encounter optimizations. The same players that were initially labled as "terrible." And in the end, that player will be much more loyal and dedicated than the skilled "hardcore" raider that will jump ship at the first opportunity.

Good point. There are a lot of potentially good players that just don't know where to start. I've seen a Warrior go from the very stereotype of the "PUG dps warrior" to the main tank for a BWL+ group. He realized why it was that myself and the other Priest in the guild didn't want to 5-man with him, did his research on tanking mechanics and abilities, and got better.

Here's another question: is there a distinction, skillwise, between those motivated enough to test mechanics and crunch numbers, and the other group who learns well and plays according to the conclusions of the first group? Put another way, is there much of a difference between those who l2p, and those who are self-taught?
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#48 Fres

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:55 PM

I've played with a fair share of completely reprehensible older players, in previous guilds and games. It's not limited to youth, not by a mile.

If anything, it's worse- age provides time and experience at camouflaging personality!
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#49 Bibdy

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:55 PM

Anyone noticed that no other threads have moved an inch in the last 40 minutes? ;)

There's a lot to be said about general player interactions on vent and in-game outside of raiding. I hop onto our Ventrilo at any time of the day and I'll hear people blabbing away, talking about this or that, comfortable chatting and joking around with each other and in the past, I've gone onto other guild's vent and it felt like walking into a giant freezer with almost no communication going on at all.

I absolutely adore my guild for the cozy atmosphere they create. We have to drop the hammer on boss-fights and such on occasion to stop the chatter going on (which, often includes myself), but I'd much rather be amongst a well meshed unit of friends with people of below average to excellent skill than a member a zombified army of content-destroying WoW heroes.
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#50 Seeten

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:56 PM

My guild is universally considered, it seems, to be elitest jerks, and a variety of more colorful names, on our server. We have been first, or second, to every boss kill/instance finish including MC, and though we're pretty far behind real world first guilds, we're currently pretty far ahead of the server.

That said, while we value progression, we raid 3 hours a night, 5 on fridays, because most of us work 40+ hours a week, there is almost no cursing on vent, we try very hard to prevent blaming, and singling out, we try hard to treat each other, and OOG's with respect, and we have a lot of favorable relationships with other guilds.

All that said, the forums/many other guilds still hate and revile us as elitest jerks. When we pitched the idea of selling our unneeded drops in MC, we were cursed and ridiculed. When we offered the server the chance to watch the gate opening, we were vilified, etc. Not to say we never made any mistakes, but we have tried fairly hard to be as positive a force as we can be for the server, and yet, regardless, we're considered to be Elitests who are just the meanest, nastiest people ever.

I'm a 34 year old father of 3, married, and half of our guild shares my profile. We have some younger kids who are entertaining, and amusing, and like to trash talk, and we have a few guys very impressed with their own epeen, but I try and keep everyone on an even keel, and I think on the whole, we are.

Moral of the story, even if you are nice people, for the most part, everyone will assume you are elitest jerks based on your progression/any bad apples, and you'll be vilified as elitest jerks regardless of the truth.

#51 probiscus

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 08:02 PM

Moral of the story, even if you are nice people, for the most part, everyone will assume you are elitest jerks based on your progression/any bad apples, and you'll be vilified as elitest jerks regardless of the truth.

And then there are some entire guilds of griefers. Literally, there are guilds who get props from guildies for getting threads made about them (on the realm boards) for griefing or other douchebaggery.

So, yeah, while there are people who are going to mis-interpret/characterize any guild they come across for no other reason than that guild being "better at the game", there are also an extreme number of assholes that play the game. Sometimes those assholes form guilds.

#52 Kasi

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 08:15 PM

So if a guild is thought of by the rest of the server or by other guilds as being a bunch of EJ, how in turn does that guild view them?

#53 Kypreos

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 08:19 PM

I'd like to chime on on the subject of PuGs, and the attitude of the common player towards endgame raiders.

When I was a little noob, way back in north freeport I saw a level 50+ paladin with a sword that was ON FIRE!! I asked him about it, and it was obvious to him that it was my first day playing the game. he was unbelievably nice, helpful to a fault, even to the point of taking me aside and explaining how to make a few simple macros. Since then, I always viewed the "Uber" with respect, and understood that behind all the leet pixels is a normal person who may be nice or may be a prick.

I think that most casual players automatically view endgame players either in awe or in disgust, and most probably have a similar story from early on in their careers that explains why they feel the way they do.

Since I have concentrated on raiding and have ended up in a successful endgame guild, I have experienced both treatments. tells from people complimenting me on my gear, and people who tore me a new one when I happened to suggest a particular course of action in a PuG.

i think that the people who blindly hate are the ones who got shit on by someone in shiny purplez early on, and learned to view anyone who spends the time to get that gear as an elitest prick. its kind of funny to think of a 20-30 year old man who just picked up the game as a child, but really when you are first starting out in an mmo, you are childlike in your innocence and the degree to which other people can affect your "development"

in short, they were abused as children!

#54 thebuddha

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 08:25 PM

When I look at recruiting I choose either of the following players:

A) Naturally skilled with good attitude and mature social skills (obvious choice)

B) Not yet skilled with good attitude and mature social skills, but good potential i.e. eager to improve

I think many people underestimate the ability for someone to improve given some 1 on 1 time from a more knowledgable player. I've seen many raiders drastically improve their performance with some counsling on gear/spec/encounter optimizations. The same players that were initially labled as "terrible." And in the end, that player will be much more loyal and dedicated than the skilled "hardcore" raider that will jump ship at the first opportunity.

When it comes to B...I don't know how everyone else feels about this but, to me, becoming effective and being capable of adapting quickly in the wow raiding game isn't some monumental task. If you have average intelligence almost everything in this game should come fairly quick and fairly easy to you. If someone wants to join a guild to raid and can't comprehend a fight's mechanics after a few days then there is a huge problem there. I don't care how eager someone is to improve, if they can't improve fairly quickly they just don't cut it. If wow involved having people complete transcendental math functions then it would be understandable, but almost everything besides the actual job of creating strategies seems like something akin to doing mcdonalds-level labor. I've heard and experienced a multitude of the "they're not that good but they're willing to learn!(and a girl too most likely)" and I'd rather have some immature player who is good at what they're doing and capable of being an asshole without compromising raid execution than the very eager players who can't understand how heal correctly after being told countless times.

No, it's certainly not hard, and that was sort of my point. Playing effectively requires you to understand the main mechanics; if you don't understand those then nothing is ever going to help you. The thing that makes a good raider is one who knows all the little complexities that are obvious to some and not so obvious to others. I'm not suggesting: recruiting someone who is mentally deficient and working to improve them because they are eager.

#55 Cedric

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 08:31 PM

When I look at recruiting I choose either of the following players:

A) Naturally skilled with good attitude and mature social skills (obvious choice)

B) Not yet skilled with good attitude and mature social skills, but good potential i.e. eager to improve

I think many people underestimate the ability for someone to improve given some 1 on 1 time from a more knowledgable player. I've seen many raiders drastically improve their performance with some counsling on gear/spec/encounter optimizations. The same players that were initially labled as "terrible." And in the end, that player will be much more loyal and dedicated than the skilled "hardcore" raider that will jump ship at the first opportunity.

When it comes to B...I don't know how everyone else feels about this but, to me, becoming effective and being capable of adapting quickly in the wow raiding game isn't some monumental task. If you have average intelligence almost everything in this game should come fairly quick and fairly easy to you. If someone wants to join a guild to raid and can't comprehend a fight's mechanics after a few days then there is a huge problem there. I don't care how eager someone is to improve, if they can't improve fairly quickly they just don't cut it. If wow involved having people complete transcendental math functions then it would be understandable, but almost everything besides the actual job of creating strategies seems like something akin to doing mcdonalds-level labor. I've heard and experienced a multitude of the "they're not that good but they're willing to learn!(and a girl too most likely)" and I'd rather have some immature player who is good at what they're doing and capable of being an asshole without compromising raid execution than the very eager players who can't understand how heal correctly after being told countless times.

No, it's certainly not hard, and that was sort of my point. Playing effectively requires you to understand the main mechanics; if you don't understand those then nothing is ever going to help you. The thing that makes a good raider is one who knows all the little complexities that are obvious to some and not so obvious to others. I'm not suggesting: recruiting someone who is mentally deficient and working to improve them because they are eager.

The thing is that most people who can be improved by what you say don't come off as "not good but eager to improve." If you have that ability to comprehend the complexities then you seem like every other raider right off the bat.

#56 Mishabelle

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 08:33 PM

No, I think you can get places with skilled players who loathe each other. The problem is that once you get somewhere, a loot dispute will nuke the guild into oblivion.

EDIT: Please note that you can be elitist without being a jerk, and you can be a jerk without being elitist. It's one thing to generally agree that somebody sucks at the game, but it doesn't mean you have to treat them worse than you'd treat somebody who just burned your house down. A lot of people seem to get into that habit, and then they start just being incredibly judgemental towards anyone and everyone who they haven't played with for a year, like going off on a priest because there wasn't a bubble on them immediately after a mortal strike (when you assume you're better than everyone else, it doesn't take much to prove it to yourself).

Until I started reading these forums, I had no idea that guilds who were elitist but not jerks existed. Alot of people in the thread have described my dream guild. I unfortunately am on a server where all the raiding guilds are both elitist and jerks. And this attitude hasn't gotten them very far. There's not a single guild on Horde side that has gotten C'thun, and this is an original release server. The top Horde guild on the server constantly loses members, who turns around and recruits members from guilds below them, and those guilds have to recruit from lower guilds, etc. My own guild has this elitist attitude towards our own members, and we're not very good at all progression wise. I am just about ready to spend my $25 and get out of dodge.

#57 Toabo

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 08:34 PM

My general rule of thumb is to focus on what's fixable versus what isn't. If someone is a mediocre player because they just don't know the tricks of the trade, that can be fixed. However, that presumes the person is willing to learn and can take constructive criticism.

Attitude is tougher to fix. Whether it's being a skilled jerk or a crappy player who refuses to learn, making these recalictrant individuals improve isn't always possible. I've had limited success sitting some folks down (figuratively speaking) and explaining to them that the need to change. When combined with a sharp yank on their chain to grab their attention, that's occasionally enough to bring them to heel.

However, if those folks won't bend, then I try to leave them by the wayside. The jerks will end up being toxic influences in the guild. The consistently mediocre end up as an anchor on the rest of the guild. Both types generate frustration and dissatisfcation with the guildies you want to keep and that leads to dreaded Drama.

Computer issues are really beyond your ability to influence, but unfortunately they still matter. Everyone has random issues, so that's tolerable. But if a raider's connection is always unreliable, their contribution to the raid can't be counted on. And when you're stretching your raid's ability to master a new encounter, reliability takes precedence.

#58 Bloodterror

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 08:36 PM

Here it is.

If your guild is full of skilled players who loathe each other you won't get anywhere. The same can be said about having a guild of tight knit friends who absolutely suck. It's a balancing act.

I've been in both of the types of guilds mentioned here, skill first, and personality first. Maybe its just me but I felt far more at home in skill-first guilds than I did in the "family oriented" guild of which I was a part. Something about insipid "family members" who don't even raid filling g-chat with intolerable nonsense, or seeing those same people invited to raids, knowing they aren't pulling their own and that they are being babysat made it an unenjoyable experience. Then again, in skill-oriented guilds I've invited people to come raid with me, sometimes people I've known and liked for multiple years, that I KNEW were personality risks, thinking, maybe he can hold it together or maybe hes matured. They've let me down every time. A good player who isn't sustainable in a raid/guild environment for a long period of time is a loot black hole who isn't worth anything.

The best thing to do is look for people with guild dedication (people who've been in one guild for a long time). Thats one thing thats universal and that will bring people together. You can have abrasive dramatic personalities, you can have people who are subpar skill-wise, or who are raging elitist jerkoffs but if at the end of the day you know (or just think, whether its true or not is immaterial, its the perception that matters) that they care about the guild thats something you can respect. If you trust that the guy who just blew you up on Thaddius is as livid about it as you are because he honestly gives a shit, its a lot easier to not be mad at him. Similarly, when someone tells you to L2P faggot, its a lot easier to take coming from someone whose been there for the wipes with 100% attendance, who stuck around during attrition periods, whose farmed consumables, than from someone who left another top guild on the server due to drama and has just recently joined, even though the message is exactly the same.

So the moral is: don't go too far on either end of the spectrum. People who are unwilling to improve or don't care whether they do or not are worthless. People who are so abrasive they damage your raid chemistry are worthless.

#59 Zagzil

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 08:42 PM

Just on PUGs- how is it elitist to want to run a small group instance with people you know and trust over people you don't know and don't trust? Seems like common sense to me.

Like Gurgthock has posted before - raid guilds are like sports teams, and every league has their own Yankees.

Does every league have its own Rangers?

I don't know, but Horde is definitely the National League.

#60 Taikero

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 08:42 PM

My guild is universally considered, it seems, to be elitest jerks, and a variety of more colorful names, on our server. We have been first, or second, to every boss kill/instance finish including MC, and though we're pretty far behind real world first guilds, we're currently pretty far ahead of the server.

That said, while we value progression, we raid 3 hours a night, 5 on fridays, because most of us work 40+ hours a week, there is almost no cursing on vent, we try very hard to prevent blaming, and singling out, we try hard to treat each other, and OOG's with respect, and we have a lot of favorable relationships with other guilds.

All that said, the forums/many other guilds still hate and revile us as elitest jerks. When we pitched the idea of selling our unneeded drops in MC, we were cursed and ridiculed. When we offered the server the chance to watch the gate opening, we were vilified, etc. Not to say we never made any mistakes, but we have tried fairly hard to be as positive a force as we can be for the server, and yet, regardless, we're considered to be Elitests who are just the meanest, nastiest people ever.

I'm a 34 year old father of 3, married, and half of our guild shares my profile. We have some younger kids who are entertaining, and amusing, and like to trash talk, and we have a few guys very impressed with their own epeen, but I try and keep everyone on an even keel, and I think on the whole, we are.

Moral of the story, even if you are nice people, for the most part, everyone will assume you are elitest jerks based on your progression/any bad apples, and you'll be vilified as elitest jerks regardless of the truth.

Because of the history behind Juggernaut, you're going to have to deal with the reputation(s) Heaven and Earth and its old members had. You're considered elitist jerks because there are many of your members who are, in fact, elitist jerks. I'm not here to call people out or any of that, but I knew some members of both the old Heaven and Earth and the now Juggernaut before they joined, and I must say they were far more humble and, dare I say, human before they started picking up their "phat lewtz".

It's just the way the guild is. I can't explain it. It's just how you guys operate. It never bugged me all that much, but the rest of the server sure seemed to have it out for you. At least Juggernaut has earned the "top dog" status to go along with the hate, unlike Unwanted Prophecy, hated server-wide for the immaturity and rudeness of its members.

On the subject(s) of MC drops and the gate opening...Well...Both of those had their own problems, both in the method of approach and in the execution. Drama fueled by both jealousy and inner guild turmoil is not a good way to conduct business or events.

I hope you'll one day be able to dissociate the name Juggernaut from Heaven and Earth, but I think that day will be a long time coming, Cherise. Good luck to you though.



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Credo of an Elitist Jerk

I am a min/maxer. I crunch numbers to make my character better, and expect others to have at least a minimal understanding of basic game mechanics. I am a loot whore. I will take every item I can that is a significantly substantial upgrade from a current one, and I will feel very good about it. I am an asshole. I don't accommodate stupidity. I am a good guild member. I show up, I do my job, and I go the extra mile where possible. I am humble. I learn from my mistakes, and improve myself from them. I have a sense of humor. I will not take offense if my guildmate calls me a spinach squeezing mushroom stuffer, or some other vicious name. I am myself. I do not change who I am for others, be they my guild leader, an officer, or someone I like or despise. I am honest and straightforward. I do not beat around the bush or coddle an issue looking for the best white lie to get myself out of dealing with it, instead bringing such an issue to the table and resolving it. I am responsible. If I am unprepared or I make a mistake, I own up to it and make amends if necessary. I am loyal and determined. I am not a fair weather guild member, and will not duck out of a guild event if the going is tough.

Most of all, I am an elitist jerk. I'm better than you, and I know it.




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