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Are we all Elitist Jerks?


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#121 Proeliata

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Posted 23 September 2006 - 08:48 AM

You can't compare the ASMB to the Arcanist Gloves and say that it's an upgrade over them, they're not even in the same slot. :P Besides which, a good DKP system will also have an upgrade payments system in place. For example, if the T1 gloves cost 75 DKP and the T2 gloves cost 100, then picking up T2 gloves after T1 gloves should not cost you the full price of the T2 gloves, so while picking up the T1 gloves may set you back a little now, it'll be beneficial in BWL.

Besides that, Arcanist Gloves have +7 to FR on them, so really any mage thinking ahead should pick them up.

#122 Praetorian

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Posted 23 September 2006 - 02:18 PM

I mean, yeah, it's a what if scenario, but that's how the person is probably viewing it. They're going for the largest upgrade possible.

This is more than a little bit of a derail, but what the hell. We forced Arcanist on everyone. We forced ACLG on rogues when rogues thought they were worthless ("Devilsaur are better!") and oh boy, do I love to remind them of that one today. Anyway, our rule is and was that any upgrade will be looted, even if it's situational and even if it's not a gigantic upgrade. Not everyone can have the "largest upgrade possible" right away. If everyone behaves that way then you end up with a bunch of disenchanted gear, or one or two people who hate seeing things rot and will speak up regardless and thus end up without the DKP for any really good items solely because they don't want to see items wasted. If it's applied evenhandedly then it isn't unfair. If all mages are forced to take something, then hey, guess what, it doesn't affect the relative standings at all. Obviously this all assumes that the item is actually an upgrade, however small.

#123 Taikero

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Posted 23 September 2006 - 05:16 PM

I mean, yeah, it's a what if scenario, but that's how the person is probably viewing it. They're going for the largest upgrade possible.

This is more than a little bit of a derail, but what the hell. We forced Arcanist on everyone. We forced ACLG on rogues when rogues thought they were worthless ("Devilsaur are better!") and oh boy, do I love to remind them of that one today. Anyway, our rule is and was that any upgrade will be looted, even if it's situational and even if it's not a gigantic upgrade. Not everyone can have the "largest upgrade possible" right away. If everyone behaves that way then you end up with a bunch of disenchanted gear, or one or two people who hate seeing things rot and will speak up regardless and thus end up without the DKP for any really good items solely because they don't want to see items wasted. If it's applied evenhandedly then it isn't unfair. If all mages are forced to take something, then hey, guess what, it doesn't affect the relative standings at all. Obviously this all assumes that the item is actually an upgrade, however small.

True, not everyone can have the largest upgrade possible. That's why usually when the person snags their "precious", they revert back into normal loot gathering mode and pick up all the things they were forgoing in order to maintain the DKP necessary to obtain the item.

Of course, if the person in question is constantly doing this, then there's a problem, and it must be remedied. I don't see anything wrong with a person (especially one with high dedication to raiding and the guild) maintaining that top DKP stance so they can obtain an item. Of course, sometimes with items of such value, it's better that the guild leaders make a decision on it (e.g. Atiesh/first Armaments and Regalia/first Rogue/Warrior pieces in Naxx/etc.) rather than have such issues arise anyway.

Love the ACLG thing (really, not sarcastically. Those gloves are the bomb). Did you even force it on sword rogues too (after dagger rogues of course), "just in case"? I suppose you did given the way you've described the way loot is handled.

And yes, I too realized how much of a derail this was last night, but.....I guess that's why this topic was made. We all have strong opinions about how to handle our "Elite" guilds, be it loot distribution or drama resolution, and that's what I think this topic is good for. It's broad enough to allow a conversation like this, yet also allows someone to discuss why Al Gore wouldn't make a good guildie ("I created the Internet guys, bow down and give me 1337 purples!").

#124 Cmpnd

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Posted 23 September 2006 - 05:39 PM

I personally wouldn't like someone forcing a complete downgrade on me (and had no other use such as resists, etc) if I really didn't want it.

As far as being an Elitist Jerk, I think negative attitudes in raids can have a huge impact on people. Some people, like myself, always are giving 100%, even if someone makes a rude comment to me (which normally just forces me to work harder to prove them wrong). We used to have a bad attitude lingering over our raid for a bit - and then a post was brought up on our forums asking for everyone to improve their general attitude towards raids and not call anyone out in open raid chat (we don't use Vent). What we saw was a HUGE increase in not only DPS, but how much fun everyone had in the raid.

Granted, if your guild has 40 people on a raid who are going to try 100% of the time no matter what, then negative attitudes might not be a big deal like it was to mine.

#125 Chimp

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Posted 23 September 2006 - 09:07 PM

I personally wouldn't like someone forcing a complete downgrade on me (and had no other use such as resists, etc) if I really didn't want it.

But if items are being 'forced' on every raider across the board, then eventually the dkp balances out (i.e. you might have been forced 2 items, but so have the other rogues... in addition when mages/healers etc get 'forced' to loot items you earn more dkp as well).

So forcing items means the balance of dkp ends up about the same (relatively speaking), but you end up with a raid that is much better equipped overall, due to fewer disenchants.

I very often 'horde' my points and try to save them for items that will be the biggest upgrade, by passing on items for others to take. But if an item is looking like it might get disenchanted ill happily take it irrespective of where it will leave me points wise.

#126 Cmpnd

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Posted 23 September 2006 - 09:28 PM

I personally wouldn't like someone forcing a complete downgrade on me (and had no other use such as resists, etc) if I really didn't want it.

But if items are being 'forced' on every raider across the board, then eventually the dkp balances out (i.e. you might have been forced 2 items, but so have the other rogues... in addition when mages/healers etc get 'forced' to loot items you earn more dkp as well).

So forcing items means the balance of dkp ends up about the same (relatively speaking), but you end up with a raid that is much better equipped overall, due to fewer disenchants.

I very often 'horde' my points and try to save them for items that will be the biggest upgrade, by passing on items for others to take. But if an item is looking like it might get disenchanted ill happily take it irrespective of where it will leave me points wise.

So assuming it was forced on you first, what if the item drops that you want, and since you were forced that item, you can't take the item you really want anymore because someone else has higher DKP?

EDIT: Unless of course the DKP is taken after everyone has the item, which I take it wouldn't be the case.

I just don't understand forcing DOWNGRADES upon people if they don't want it at all.

#127 R4zza

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Posted 23 September 2006 - 10:06 PM

I just don't understand forcing DOWNGRADES upon people if they don't want it at all.

Lucky for you that isnt whats being discussed here.

Anyway, our rule is and was that any upgrade will be looted, even if it's situational and even if it's not a gigantic upgrade.



#128 Cmpnd

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Posted 23 September 2006 - 10:19 PM

I just don't understand forcing DOWNGRADES upon people if they don't want it at all.

Lucky for you that isnt whats being discussed here.

Anyway, our rule is and was that any upgrade will be looted, even if it's situational and even if it's not a gigantic upgrade.

That was in response to Chimp, who quoted me (in which I had wrote "complete downgrade" there too, for instance, if Arcanist Robes didn't have FR they'd be a complete downgrade from the blue PvP robes - but of course, it does have FR, so that's besides the point), and I added the edit to clarify my point.

Sorry if there was any confusion about that, my first statement was probably too general to really have mattered, and should not have been included in the post. I was just thinking about my own personal experience, where I waited approximately five months to get C'Thun Mace. If I wouldn't have gotten it due to things being forced on me, I would've been slightly irritated. :)

#129 XI-

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Posted 23 September 2006 - 11:12 PM

I just don't understand forcing DOWNGRADES upon people if they don't want it at all.

Lucky for you that isnt whats being discussed here.

Anyway, our rule is and was that any upgrade will be looted, even if it's situational and even if it's not a gigantic upgrade.

Sorry if there was any confusion about that, my first statement was probably too general to really have mattered, and should not have been included in the post. I was just thinking about my own personal experience, where I waited approximately five months to get C'Thun Mace. If I wouldn't have gotten it due to things being forced on me, I would've been slightly irritated. :)

That's because your overriding concern is me, and what I want. For the greater good of the guild it doesn't really matter who the mace goes to, and by forcing loot on people the guild progresses overall.

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#130 Oaklin

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Posted 23 September 2006 - 11:47 PM

That's because your overriding concern is me, and what I want. For the greater good of the guild it doesn't really matter who the mace goes to, and by forcing loot on people the guild progresses overall.

I was never able to see past this point myself until I became an officer, so it'd be rather unfair to expect this of one's guildies. That said, more and more of them 'see the light' as the weeks go by, and we're patient with the rest.

#131 Cmpnd

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Posted 24 September 2006 - 12:34 AM

I just don't understand forcing DOWNGRADES upon people if they don't want it at all.

Lucky for you that isnt whats being discussed here.


Sorry if there was any confusion about that, my first statement was probably too general to really have mattered, and should not have been included in the post. I was just thinking about my own personal experience, where I waited approximately five months to get C'Thun Mace. If I wouldn't have gotten it due to things being forced on me, I would've been slightly irritated. :)

That's because your overriding concern is me, and what I want. For the greater good of the guild it doesn't really matter who the mace goes to, and by forcing loot on people the guild progresses overall.

Sure it does. We are not one of those guilds with 40 strong people who all contribute equal to the guild.

#132 Boevis

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Posted 24 September 2006 - 02:03 AM

crap

Did someone hijack your account? How did you possibly last long enough to make over 100 posts on these boards posting like this? Why are you Capitalizing random Words? Do you realize that you just sat down and typed out a post featuring the words "carebear" and "butthurt"?

You have a valid point beneath all of that, but when you post like a ranting stereotypical hardc0re internet kid, that obscures anything you might be trying to communicate. Stop.

Sorry, I thought that with posts calling people assholes, jerks, and stating "I hate stupid people" the term 'carebear' was within my limits. I don't want to dilute my ability to convey my message by having people label me wrong just because they think I'm a jerk.

I was being patronizing when I should have been direct with my message: This thread is filled with posts that seem to seperate 'elite/skilled' and 'attitude' and implied the requirement for a balance of the two. I don't believe that there is any coralation between skill and attitude, I'll kiss ass and cite EJ as an example. Their skill and knowledge of the game is without question, and enough of them are perfectly decent folks to disprove any argument of (1-skill)= Attitude.

For every story on here about some asshole screaming over vent every time someone messes up and ruining the raid, I could tell you about someone who ruined a raid because they flat out refused to perform out of spite after being upset. The people who take offense to jerks and let them get to them, are as much responsible for the drama and wipes as the jerks themselves. Letting someone's attitude get to you will only serve to either fuel their anger toward you, or give them satisfaction that 'they pwned you'

Going back to Proeliata's example; I don't believe that leaving the raid, going afk, or purposely wiping the raid again would serve any good purpose, even if it makes you feel better and that you've proved your point, most people aren't going to be seeing things through your eyes and may consider you to be the asshole. You don't have to be like me and return the insults, it's probably better that you don't, I don't claim to be a very good person. The sayings "two wrongs don't make a right" and "be the bigger (better?) man" both apply nicely to this situation. Ignore the outburst, mute the guy on vent, and quietly allow the raid to continue for the sake of the other 38 people that just want to move on to the next boss. Place a complaint against the guy with one of the officers (or whoever handles that sort of thing in your guild). If his behavior is deemed unnecessary and unwelcome, he'll be asked to change his ways or face other punishment. If his behavior is deemed perfectly acceptable, that should serve as an indication that this guild may not be the right one for you.

As far as the subject of forcing loot, I would like to think that everyone would take items that will benefit the guild in some way, I would also like to think that everyone will pass on an item if they know someone else will benefit far more from it. We all know that's not always how it is. A priest with The Widow's Embrace certainly won't be 'benefitting the guild the best' by taking the Scepter of The False Prophet over a Druid using Jin'do's Hexxer, but if he desires it and has enough DKP, he can win it. I can certainly see how forcing loot would help prevent people from becoming "weapon collectors" and cause their character to continually improve (gearwise anyway)

Of course, this brings into question how you determine what can be 'forced'. Looking at the long term, there's very few items from AQ that are worth taking as a healer when compared to items from ZG or the potent set bonus's from T2. I'd doubt there's even a half dozen items in AQ that would benefit a healer in full T2.

For the record, my guild charges nothing for resist gear, which is assigned by the officers based on attendance and guild rank. I don't think anyone wants to pay for items that are needed for progression on 2 fights in the game.

#133 Bekah

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Posted 24 September 2006 - 04:15 AM

I will never understand the capacity for bad attitudes to affect how other people play a game. Is morale such an issue that you have people incapable of achieving the same results from a fight just because they're butthurt? If I were to call you a Noob, why would you let that effect you to the point of proving me right? Wouldn't your goal be to prove me wrong? I personaly don't want to raid with the kind of people that can't perform to (within reason) the same degree every time and actually want to succeed, the ability to not involve personal problems in your gameplay is one of the most important qualities in a raider for me.

A common male point of view from a psychological standpoint. Take a look at the coaching for Little League teams and consider before getting worked up though =P

There are many ways of leading a crowd, and what the right way is depends entirely on the group composition.

Think about these leadership styles and compare/contrast.

Kindergarten teacher.
High school physics teacher.
Boys little league coach.
Girls softball coach.
Small office manager.
Middle management in a major corp.
Sales manager.

If you present a group of 5 year old children to a sales manager and tell him to teach them thier colors- he's going to be totally out of his element. You can't even take the same basic motivational strategies from kindergarten to the sales office- they don't work.

Most leaders will have a very distinct style no matter who they're teaching or leading, it's how you adapt to the unique situations that determines how sucessful you are.

Our guild is about 25% female with an age range from 18-40's. Pushing our guild to suceed through talking down to them simply doens't work. The more negative we get- the worse our preformance goes and it just spirals downhill until someone in charge catches it and forces a smile on thier face and positive thinking. Keeping things upbeat and interesting with (tasteful) joking around and participation shoots our efectivness through the roof. It has nothing to do with being buttsore and everything to do with getting everyone in the right frame of mind. Degrading folks ot try to force them to preform better and prove you wrong is one way. Staying upbeat and analyzing the situation while talkign over ways to make it better (without being degrading) is another way to force the same changes. Our players are interested adults- we recruit for people who like to puzzle solve and feel comfortable with the more positive attitude we keep in raids.

One, vocal, negative attitude can make our entire raid feel like those 3-5 hours we raid are dragging by forever (and make everyone feel like they'd rather be at the dentist).... so we try to weed out the negative talk or confine it to text.

What works in kindergaten won't work in high school. What works in one guild won't work for another. Such is the way of things.
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#134 Thelyna

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Posted 24 September 2006 - 04:42 AM

I was being patronizing when I should have been direct with my message: This thread is filled with posts that seem to seperate 'elite/skilled' and 'attitude' and implied the requirement for a balance of the two. I don't believe that there is any coralation between skill and attitude, I'll kiss ass and cite EJ as an example. Their skill and knowledge of the game is without question, and enough of them are perfectly decent folks to disprove any argument of (1-skill)= Attitude.

For every story on here about some asshole screaming over vent every time someone messes up and ruining the raid, I could tell you about someone who ruined a raid because they flat out refused to perform out of spite after being upset. The people who take offense to jerks and let them get to them, are as much responsible for the drama and wipes as the jerks themselves. Letting someone's attitude get to you will only serve to either fuel their anger toward you, or give them satisfaction that 'they pwned you'.

On the first, I'd agree with you. There's very little correlation between skill and attitude. But what I think the people earlier in the thread were saying is that a little bit of attitude is more acceptable when you have skills to back it up.

On the second, there's two seperate issues you're using, one is screaming leadership (which is generally accepted as A Bad Thing, I think), and the other is jerkoff co-raiders. I agree, though, with what you're saying now, you're never going to get into a guild where absolutely everyone likes each other (there's something like, uh, 1770 distinct relationships in a 60-man guild, I think), so you have to develop a certain tolerance for people you don't care to be around. Hell, in one of my old guilds I had two of our DPS warriors and one of our rogues on vent mute because I didn't want to hear them.

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#135 Proeliata

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Posted 24 September 2006 - 07:20 AM

I was being patronizing when I should have been direct with my message: This thread is filled with posts that seem to seperate 'elite/skilled' and 'attitude' and implied the requirement for a balance of the two. I don't believe that there is any coralation between skill and attitude, I'll kiss ass and cite EJ as an example. Their skill and knowledge of the game is without question, and enough of them are perfectly decent folks to disprove any argument of (1-skill)= Attitude.

I don't think anyone was trying to make that correlation. They were merely saying that while skill is important, even a Sun Tzu wouldn't be worth keeping around if he makes the rest of his guild feel like crap.

Going back to Proeliata's example; I don't believe that leaving the raid, going afk, or purposely wiping the raid again would serve any good purpose, even if it makes you feel better and that you've proved your point, most people aren't going to be seeing things through your eyes and may consider you to be the asshole.

Of course not! I never indicated that I'd do something like that. There's no point punishing 38 people for the wrongs done by one person. What I was saying is that a guild that has players that are constantly and consistently rude and insulting is not a guild that's going to last, no matter how much of a purplez machine it is. But the point is that the attitudes of the other raiders do make an impact. In the words of my good buddy John Donne (:P)
"No man is an island, entire of itself
every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main"
Maybe it's a faux pas to quote poetry in a raid discussion thread; I don't know. But saying that you shouldn't be affected by the attitudes of other people around you is a bit unreasonable. We're all only human. It's an MMORPG, which kind of reinforces the whole "You are not independent from other people" theme. Everyone has their pride, and nobody likes to be insulted. Yes, there will be some flipping out (I did just tonight at a priest who was rezzing non-rezzers before rezzers :P) but it shouldn't be, as a general rule, done by the rank and file of the guild; that's what the raid leaders/officers are there for.




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