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#21 Rhy

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 06:37 AM

Probably the one thing I am most interested in is how do you handle haste in Rawr? As far as I know, neither the spreadsheet, nor the online version (femaledwarf) can handle static haste and haste procs well, due to technical limitations (correct me if I am wrong here). Because of that, gear with haste will usually be valued higher than a similar piece of gear that doesn't have haste on it, or it will simply be valued higher than it should (the Saurfang 10hc ring vs other rings or the Sindragosa 25hc neck vs Sindragosa 10hc neck).

#22 Jothay

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 06:57 AM

I run the Gear optimizers on both RAWR and the Spreadsheet, each give completely different gear suggestions.

RAWR is telling me to go with the 4pc T10 (T10.5 on Head, Legs and Chest. While T10 on shoulders) gemming Agility and Hit on yellow sockets to make hit cap.

Spreadsheet is telling me 2pc T10 (T10.5 Head, T10 Shoulder) going with Carapace chest and Northern lights legs. Carapace Chest makes Hit cap and the Northern Lights legs are higher DPS overall then the T10.5 legs.

Just wondering if there is a setting I am missing on RAWR. I am using the 3.3.22 beta.

Seems RAWR is either giving too much weight to the 4pc bonus, or the Spreadsheet is not giving it enough.

FYI- It would be nice to have a drop down selection box to just one click 25 or 10 man raid buffs. Then we could just look over the checked boxes to customize it if needed.


1) It's Rawr not RAWR, common mistake
2) Are you certain that you matched all of the settings between the two sheets? There are a couple of things you can't physically match between them but you can still get pretty close. The biggest differences comes to the Rotation and Buffs sections, and any proc effects are handled differently than the sheet.
3) In Rawr3, you can set up a group of Buffs how you want for a 25 man and save that group (see the button and combobox at the top). Then you can go and set up the Buffs for a 10 man and save that group. Then all you have to do to switch between the two is use the combo box to select them. I will not be creating default sets other than UnBuffed and Fully Buffed because there is too wide a variance in group makeups, the second I make one I'll start getting requests to change this or that.

If you would like to send me a copy of the spreadsheet as you are seeing it and your character files (before and after optimize) I would gladly take a look and see if there's something I can improve or point out that would directly affect your situation.
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#23 Jothay

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 07:05 AM

Probably the one thing I am most interested in is how do you handle haste in Rawr? As far as I know, neither the spreadsheet, nor the online version (femaledwarf) can handle static haste and haste procs well, due to technical limitations (correct me if I am wrong here). Because of that, gear with haste will usually be valued higher than a similar piece of gear that doesn't have haste on it, or it will simply be valued higher than it should (the Saurfang 10hc ring vs other rings or the Sindragosa 25hc neck vs Sindragosa 10hc neck).


I'm not sure exactly how you want me to answer this. Haste Rating (unprocced) changes your shot speed as well as affecting your shots with cast bars. As far as I know, this is handled as it should be with the current Rotation code. Procs are handled by averaging the haste and turning that into static Haste, while considering the Haste caps at the same time (so if the proc would be putting you over the soft cap, it would be providing less benefit). I know this isn't perfect, but it shouldn't be wholly inaccurate in most situations.

Now you mention these rings but you didn't state that you are seeing these rings as being overvalued in Rawr, just that they are rumored to be overvalued. Are you actually seeing this?

One thing that a lot of people will remember from a short while back is that Haste would 'appear' to be out of control way overvalued for toons loaded into Rawr. This was due to the fact that just loading the character in wasn't enough, you had to actually set up the rotation, buffs, pet, pet buffs, everything. These days however, I've made parts of this automatic so that new users are less likely to fall into this little trap. There is still a thread on the Rawr discussions page about setting up your Hunter file and if memory serves, that links back to the Hunter Documentation on the Rawr site.
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#24 iJax

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 05:26 PM

Correct. I did have a Spreadsheet setting off somewhere. Rawr 3.3.22 was correctly gearing the 4pc T10 set.

Well here's what I did. I was worried I messed up a setting in one or both of the programs, so I deleted both off my computer. I then did a fresh install from the Spreadsheet thread and this Rawr thread.

Hunter SpreadSheet
I loaded my toon from armory, cleared ALL buffs, entered my shot priority, loaded my SV spec. = 5901 DPS.

Gear Optimizer, T10.5 gear, except Gloves & Shoulders T10, T9.5 gear, all Frost Emblem gear, Carapace chest, Northern Lights legs, 271 xbow, 271 ranger-general, Bone colossus ring, Endless ring, Fanged Skull & Deaths Verdict, Rock treads. Wodin's neck.

It suggested; T10.5 head, Wodins neck, T10 shoulders, Scarlet cape, T10.5 Chest, Scourge Hunters wrist, T10 gloves, Night Raven waist, Northern Lights legs, Rock steady treads, Colossus ring, Bone ring, 271 Xbow and Ranger- General 271 2H. = 5841 DPS. So a loss of 60 DPS from how I gear and gem.

Understanding that 10 or 25 man buffed would probably make the Spreadsheets choices better then mine is acknowledged by me.

Rawr
3.3.22 off of website.

loaded my gear with forced refresh, I confirmed it loaded my re-gemming from last night. (I was playing around with Agil and Glinting gems, Focused Aim...blah blah blah.) Loaded my Shot priority (swapped BA and SrPS), Rawr did not have my pets current build from last night. I loaded the same one as I had in the spreadsheet. Rawr didn't have my pet casting Furious Howl and bite. It only let me choose Growl and Claw ?. = 6264 DPS

Gave Rawr the same choices for Optimizer. It suggested;
The same re-gemming as the Spreadsheet, (which I agree with) but it suggested the Logsplitters over the T10 gloves and the T10.5 legs over the Northern Light legs. This is a toss up in my book. To make the 4pc set bonus one of these two slots must equip the lesser dps gear. Seems Rawr and the Spreadsheet just disagree on which way to go. = 6245 DPS.

Again the loss of DPS isn't a big deal, no buffs were loaded.

I added the 10 or 25 man buffs and both called out a 10.8ish DPS. In fact I run at 11+K to 12K single ICC. So both are correct, taking the nature of playing into account.

I am not sure how to check gemming priority on Rawr. It appeared to value Agil, then Agil + Crit then Agil + stam, and making the socket bonus when "overall" was selected. It seemed to be making the correct choices in my book. It did not suggest a Haste gemming as earlier versions did.... (@ Aker)
Why the dps differance...IDK. It couldn't be the pet problem, but the pet attack needs to be looked into.

Great stuff, Thumbs-up to Rawr 3.3.22

#25 Jothay

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 05:34 PM

iJax I will take a look at the pet rotations not showing the additional attacks when configured for them. It's probably something I missed when I was setting up the Rawr3 options pane. Huge chunk of stuff to happen all at once, was bound to leave something behind :P

To see how the gems are being rated at that moment, you can look at the Gems > All Normal chart. Mind you as soon as any piece of gear changes, the chart will adjust.

With Overall selected, it's valuing in Stamina for the Survivability. If you think that it's putting too much stock in survivability, you can scale that down on the Options Pane. The default scaling is 1, I recommend 0.5 for people who are are very raid aware (meaning they know how to get out of the fire) because they don't need quite as much focus on living as the casual player.
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#26 iJax

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 05:59 PM

iJax I will take a look at the pet rotations not showing the additional attacks when configured for them. It's probably something I missed when I was setting up the Rawr3 options pane. Huge chunk of stuff to happen all at once, was bound to leave something behind :P

To see how the gems are being rated at that moment, you can look at the Gems > All Normal chart. Mind you as soon as any piece of gear changes, the chart will adjust.

With Overall selected, it's valuing in Stamina for the Survivability. If you think that it's putting too much stock in survivability, you can scale that down on the Options Pane. The default scaling is 1, I recommend 0.5 for people who are are very raid aware (meaning they know how to get out of the fire) because they don't need quite as much focus on living as the casual player.


Well No, I think your standard setting of 1 would be good. 10man ICC SV Hunters take a beating, 25 man MM Hunters, even raid aware ones need that help too.... :) If someone was in good T10.5 gear and wanted to go BM ICC 10, I dont think they would need the help.

I am not sure if anyone is 25man Raiding in BM yet. If I get my T10.5 shoulders, better boots and trink I am gonna try it. :D

#27 Jothay

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 05:59 PM

iJax I'm looking at the Pet Rotation tab and when I change the Pet Family it updates the rotation boxes with the new abilities. I'm guessing that when you loaded your character in it didn't update them. Can you send me your Armory link so I can duplicate it using your info and track down where the disconnect is?
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#28 iJax

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 07:08 PM

iJax I'm looking at the Pet Rotation tab and when I change the Pet Family it updates the rotation boxes with the new abilities. I'm guessing that when you loaded your character in it didn't update them. Can you send me your Armory link so I can duplicate it using your info and track down where the disconnect is?


sorry it took so long.

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Ok, just logged on to my toon and found the wolf's spec wasnt what I thought it was, so Rawr did load the correct spec from armory while the Spreadsheet loaded what it thinks it SHOULD be, not what it was... This is probably me not doing something on the spread sheet. I know I hit "load from Armory" on the Spreadsheet and choose Wolf, so I have no idea why it didnt do that.

Still a wolf shouldnt have set attacks of growl and claw. It should be FH/ charge / bite IMO.

#29 Jothay

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 07:31 PM

Right, when you select manually select Wolf in Rawr3, the Rotation auto sets to FH, bite. Charge gets inserted in the back end automatically if you have the talent.

Edit: Loading your character, I see the issue. When you manually select away from Wolf and back to it, it sets up the FH, bite. I can track it down from here. Thank you for the info.

Edit2: I added another ability populate call and that seems to have fixed the problem.
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#30 Jothay

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 08:40 PM

Here's a task for the community, I would like to make a set of cookie cutter Hunter and Pet talent specs to include with the default install (helps out with the nubs using really bad specs to show good ones).

I'd like input for the top 2 specs of each kind. Generally, a pure DPS variant and a Utility variant.

Hunter:
- BM 1:
- BM 2:
- MM 1:
- MM 2:
- SV 1:
- SV 2:

Pet:
Cunning 1:
Cunning 2:
Ferocity 1:
Ferocity 2:
Tenacity 1:
Tenacity 2:
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#31 iJax

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 11:34 PM

Here's a task for the community, I would like to make a set of cookie cutter Hunter and Pet talent specs to include with the default install (helps out with the nubs using really bad specs to show good ones).

I'd like input for the top 2 specs of each kind. Generally, a pure DPS variant and a Utility variant.

Hunter:
- BM 1:
- BM 2:
- MM 1:
- MM 2:
- SV 1:
- SV 2:

Pet:
Cunning 1:
Cunning 2:
Ferocity 1:
Ferocity 2:
Tenacity 1:
Tenacity 2:


there are a lot of variations on a common theme. The best way to list these are reading from left to right top down, as you do in Rawr.

top Raiding pet DPS Ferocity Wolf -2/1/0/0/- 0/0/3/0/- 3/0/1/- 0/3/0/- 1/0/1/- 0/1 Some people like putting one point in "Bloodthirsty" to open the 4th tier, but "Charge" has more dps value then any other open talent under it. Even if the mob resist the stun effect the pet still gains a 25% MAP boost on its next attack...or so I am told. When facing a non-raid mob outside... anywhere, most of the time they dont even get an attack in. I fire ES, pet charges, I fire BA, the mob dies.

My solo tanking spec. (SV build) Tenacity Warp Stalker 0/0/3/2/- 0/0/2/2/- 0/2/0/1/- 2/0/- 0/1/0/0/- 1/0/ The warp Stalker can blink to a mob. This is like a free dash move and has the benefit of bypassing mobs without drawing aggro from them as a charge or dash would. Very useful in Soloing when you want maximum time on a boss. You can actually get several hits in before the surrounding mobs join in to help the boss.

I think you are going to find a lot of different pet builds. I don't think I have seen a "Must" spec. Add to that BM gains more points to play with...lots of variables.

#32 Jothay

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 12:31 AM

You make an excellent point, I should add a dimension on the Pet specs for Beast Mastery having the extra 4 points. I can probably also limit the spec selector to nly show BM pet specs when the BM talent is active and vice versa. It's already limiting to the pet family tree (ferocity, etc)
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#33 R00k!3

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 06:36 AM

There seem to be issues with the gear optimizer. It just takes my gear, replaces JC gems with normal gems and claims it would be 600dps better, while switching to the stat tab shows that the stats are not.

#34 iJax

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 07:24 PM

It gave me an error when I tried to run Kerbaroth,

"The following currently equipped items are not available
Fractured Dragons Eye is not available
Nightmare Tear is not available
Nitro Boost is not available

Do you want to continue?"

I think what is happening is this.

If you checked yes to this, the Optimizer will remove those items from your gear and THEN calculate a dps based on those not being there. It will then add gems and enchant those items. So it will show more dps, since it first calculated a dps without the JC gems and boost chant.

This is a new bug because I used the 3.3.22 the other day and did not get a warning about these gems or enchant.

Nice gear Kerbaroth...why are you even using a gear program...hahaha. Your done man. :D

#35 Whitefyst

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 11:33 PM

Here's a task for the community, I would like to make a set of cookie cutter Hunter and Pet talent specs to include with the default install (helps out with the nubs using really bad specs to show good ones).

I'd like input for the top 2 specs of each kind. Generally, a pure DPS variant and a Utility variant.

Hunter:
- BM 1:
- BM 2:
- MM 1:
- MM 2:
- SV 1:
- SV 2:

Pet:
Cunning 1:
Cunning 2:
Ferocity 1:
Ferocity 2:
Tenacity 1:
Tenacity 2:


MM 1: The third glyph choice varies from Kill Shit, Trueshot Aura (if crit rate is not too high), Chimera Shot, and Hawk. Points are taken out of Improved Steady Shot or Improved Barrage to get hit from Focused Aim (FA).

MM 2: Variation here is getting Improved Hunter's Mark (IHM). Points are taken out of Improved Steady Shot or Improved Barrage to get IHM and FA. The third glyph could also be Hunter's Mark if your raid has many hunters.

Not providing BM or SV specs since not as versed with them.

Cunning 1 (Non-BM):

Cunning 2 (Non-BM): For the mana recovery.

Cunning 1 (BM)

Cunning 2 (BM) If want the Roar of Sacrifice utility.

Ferocity 1 (Non-BM): Floater point is the one in Bloodthirsty. Prefer alive and happy pet. Charge is another option for minor DPS gain.

Ferocity 2 (Non-BM): If desire a self ressurrecting pet utility.

Ferocity 1 (BM)

Ferocity 2 (BM)

Tenacity 1 (Non-BM): For tanking survivability and threat.

Tenacity 1 (BM) For tanking survivability and threat.

#36 Jothay

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 10:12 PM

Thank you Whitefyst, that was most helpful. I am looking at implementing those into the default caches.
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#37 Kultamch

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 07:37 PM

I ran optimize last night and was provided with a custom talent spec that overall looks very promising. One point where I had a question is that it did not include a point for "Readiness" instead putting 3 points into "Wild Quiver".

since I tend to use readiness in most ICC fights to reset either my rapid fire or kill shot when it is available, I was wondering what the theory was that had a 3rd wild quiver point be more valuable than readiness.

#38 Jothay

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 07:55 PM

I ran optimize last night and was provided with a custom talent spec that overall looks very promising. One point where I had a question is that it did not include a point for "Readiness" instead putting 3 points into "Wild Quiver".

since I tend to use readiness in most ICC fights to reset either my rapid fire or kill shot when it is available, I was wondering what the theory was that had a 3rd wild quiver point be more valuable than readiness.


Don't use the Talents Optimizer... EVER. It only selects talents which it thinks has value, which does not include anything that provides raid utility or things that provide no DPS under your *exact current* settings. As an alternative, set up a couple of cookie cutter specs you want to try and use 'Talent Specs' in your optimize, which lets it select between full builds, instead of individual talents (it's also a lot faster due to many many fewer permutations to check).

Readiness only has values in certain setups, if the fight is too short or you don't have it in the rotation, etc. the Readiness talent ends up with no value. We already have a ticket open in the Issue Tracker for this and when the new rotation code gets written for Cata, this won't be a problem anymore.
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#39 glideroggan

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 08:34 AM

Will the updated Rawr handle reforging of gear?

Alot more calculations I guess.

#40 Heavenly

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 10:28 PM

Will the updated Rawr handle reforging of gear?

Alot more calculations I guess.

From Astrylian:

"The Rawr dev team is currently focusing all of our efforts on 4.0 at level 85 mechanics.
We have no plans to support or release a version of Rawr for use in 4.0 at level 80. Sorry, there just isn't time available right now; we've still got tons of work to do to get ready for Cata, which is much more important that the couple months at 80 in 4.0."

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