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Shadowpriest Theorycraft 3.3 Edition - I get by with a little help from my friends


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#21 Dezzimal

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 07:15 PM

You might want to include a PvE/Utility spec that takes Imp Scream/Silence/Psychic Horror on your OP. Though ToC is slowly fading into obscurity I found something like http://www.wowhead.c...Z0xfiRfkrfqfkAo to be absolute dynamite for Faction Champions. In my testing with simcraft, imp spirit tap showed to be around a 15-20 dps increase which is not much when you consider that you could be saving someone from death with an interrupt or disarm. Maybe having those extra backup crowd controls will prove to be useful deeper in ICC.

#22 Nurru

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 07:24 PM

The runspeed argument does not belong in this thread. It has been discussed to death in all the generic Priest threads already. Please stop cluttering this one up,

#23 Graf

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 07:24 PM

Let's see, in ToC (especially ToGC):
* Fires from bombs on Gormok.
* Poison clouds on snakes.
* Knockback/charge on Icehowl.
* Volcanoes on Jaraxxus.
* Faction Champs is a lot of running.
* Avoiding balls on Twins.
* Running to an ice patch on Anub (not a DPS gain, but is still nice)

In ICC:
* Avoiding Marrowgar's spin attack and frost flame stuff.
* Death and Decay on Lady Deathwhisper
* Avoiding rockets on the Gunship Battle.
* Avoiding Blood Beasts on Saurfang.

So.. which fights *don't* you have to move in, exactly? You can't plan to have an AoE dropped on you while you happen to be refreshing DP to hide the run with a GCD, you know. Chances are it is going to be while you are mind flaying, refreshing VT, or casting MB. None of those spells afford you the luxury of a GCD with which to move.

Most of them are "1-key-hit" moves (1 step moves), speed doesn't matter.

#24 Snowy

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 07:29 PM

Just delete the line, its personal.


It's not personal. We've had this discussion many, many times in the past and I encourage you to go look for it. Maybe it's a personal choice for YOU, but for the rest of us, it's a DPS choice. Fine, on a Patchwerk fight Icewalker is superior, but it's really rare to have a fight where you don't move.

We're also not even counting the intangible survivability benefits, such as getting out of an AOE 8% faster, etc.

If you want to challenge this long-held tenet, you need to provide numbers to back up your assertation. The burden of proof isn't on us.

#25 Pasch

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 08:24 PM

I agree with Graf here. I can't back it up with numbers but I can back it up with craploads of experience. How often do you move without doing either SWDeath, PWShield, DP, SWPain, Shadowfiend or Dispersion? I could probably count those situations on one hand from a typical raid. When ICC Heroic is released most of us will probably go back to Tuskarr's when moving and surviving becomes more critical to succes, but for the time being I simply don't see a reason for running Tuskarr's. Your math is assuming you can't cast spells while moving which is bullocks in real raids. And you're gonna have to mention which situations 8% extra movement speed will save your life in when you bring it up, because I can't find any.

#26 alinna

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 08:42 PM

There's no mention of clipping DoTs and their effect on DPS in the first post. Prior to 3.3 it was agreed that clipping DoTs was a DPS loss. Now with VT and DP benefiting from haste, would it ever be a DPS increase to clip them to take advantage of temporary haste buffs before they expire? For example if you have heroism/bloodlust, a trinket, or engineering gloves wearing off before it is time to recast VT/DP. Not sure what's the best way to calculate this as there are many variables such as how much haste you currently have, how many ticks you are clipping, whether your spellpower or crit changed for the initial cast compared with the clipping cast, DPS loss from taking time to clip the DoTs rather than using MB/MF, etc.

#27 Sinusoid

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 08:47 PM

Something in the 3.2 thread that's worth re-mentioning is the possibility of recasting VT/DP as heroism/bloodlust fades if there is only a tick or two left on the dot. Obviously it's not worth recasting either if you just refreshed VT/DP, but if the dots will fade a second after the heroism/bloodlust expires, it's probably better to refresh them a second before, even if you get one less tick of the original dot. The result is having a full 11s VT after the heroism/bloodlust expires. If you get a timer that tracks when the next dot tick will occur, you reduce the risk of clipping when you recast.

On the subject of consumables:
Potion of Wild Magic seems to be the better choice in fights where pre-potting is very advantageous (ie: when you can keep up the same SW:P for the duration, Marrowgar / Deathwhisper / Saurfang all come to mind), but I'm curious what potion is more advantageous during BL / heroism?

From a PP perspective, Potion of Speed beats out Potion of Wild Magic, but with such high values of haste + BL/Hero, it seems like Potion of Speed may be a bit overkill.

#28 c4tuna

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 09:22 PM

For your Tailoring PP value, you neglect to subtract the value of 23 haste to cloak. As well, my math for Engineering is available in the 3.2 thread.

#29 Gofa

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 11:07 PM

Don't want to debate this issue over again, but currently +18 spirit on boots is a bigger dps increase than +12 crit rating if you don't need the hit.

Using these scaling factors...

Int	Spi	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste
Scale Factors	0.4472	0.9539	1.6557	2.5573	1.4785	1.5057
Normalized	0.2701	0.5761	1.0000	1.5445	0.8930	0.9094

+18 spirit: 19.6*0.5761 = 11,40678
Icealker: 12 * 0,8930 = 10,71600


So if you really don't want to use Tuskarr, use at least +18 spirit instead and not icewalker.

#30 r3d3

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 11:19 PM

Let's see, in ToC (especially ToGC):
* Fires from bombs on Gormok.
* Poison clouds on snakes.
* Knockback/charge on Icehowl.
* Volcanoes on Jaraxxus.
* Faction Champs is a lot of running.
* Avoiding balls on Twins.
* Running to an ice patch on Anub (not a DPS gain, but is still nice)

In ICC:
* Avoiding Marrowgar's spin attack and frost flame stuff.
* Death and Decay on Lady Deathwhisper
* Avoiding rockets on the Gunship Battle.
* Avoiding Blood Beasts on Saurfang.

So.. which fights *don't* you have to move in, exactly? You can't plan to have an AoE dropped on you while you happen to be refreshing DP to hide the run with a GCD, you know. Chances are it is going to be while you are mind flaying, refreshing VT, or casting MB. None of those spells afford you the luxury of a GCD with which to move.


Saying that you have to move on these fights without qualifying the type of movement is dishonest, since, as Graf says, you can usually wait to move on the GCD for most of them, or they are just 1-step moves anyways, and you aren't running around for "3 seconds every 3 minutes". Going through that list again, even without considering that these are all 1-step movements:
  • Gormok - with VE on, you can stand to eat an extra tick of the fire in order to wait for DP/SW:D
  • Snakes - you shouldn't be standing anywhere near poison to begin with
  • Icehowl - 8% move speed is not required in order to move out of his way, you can cast while moving, and if you find yourself out of range a lot of the time, you can just stack up with the biggest bunch of people to improve the odds of him charging somewhere near you (=less time running into range)
  • Jaraxxus - you can wait until a GCD to move out of infernals
  • FC - you can wait for GCDs, and chances are you can help dispel or hit fade while you're running anyways
  • Twins - all 1-step moves, unless you're gathering orbs up, in which case your run speed gets overridden by the speed bosst from orbs
  • Anub - run speed doesn't help his spikes get to an icepatch any sooner
  • Marrowgar - you can eat the ww until you get a GCD
  • Deathwhisper - wait for a GCD to move out of D&D
  • Gunship - wait for a GCD to move out of rockets, or just eat them
  • Saurfang - wait for a GCD to move away from blood beasts if they're going to get that close
The only times run speed would be of any benefit are during massive crashes on Icehowl and on Faction Champions. In the case of Icehowl, you can get back into range an extra fraction of a second sooner. That being said, you can get into range before he hits the wall even without run speed, which means all you're really going to do is start your MF 0.222 seconds earlier. Maybe. As for faction champions, yeah you can run from a melee faster in theory, but in practice, you have fade, dispersion, fear, shield, rocket boots, haste potions, body & soul from your friendly neighborhood holy priest, HoP, intervene, death grip, and possibly other ways to get away. The run speed is of negligible benefit to survivability and of almost no benefit to DPS since you either have to run past a warlock to get the melee off you or have someone else do something on their end to help (ie, the length of time it's on you is dependent on other players and whether you sacrifice their survivability for your own).

And Snowy, to claim that stamina and run speed benefit DPS more than crit and hit rating or even spirit means that the burden of proof is, in fact, on you. We understand that, on paper, moving without DPSing is a DPS decrease and that moving faster can reduce this loss, but saying that "lots of people already think run speed is better since a long time ago" without actually providing a practical example of such is silly. A million people can believe something for thousands of years, but that doesn't make it true.

#31 moowalk

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 01:18 AM

It seems as if all your arguements boil down to 'I can stay in the bad AoE effect until I reach a gcd'. The only gcd used in an optimal dps rotation is devouring plague. You would cast this perhaps once every 18 seconds. Are you really expecting people to heal you for 18 seconds in a worst case scenario?

You're also ignoring various movements that are required to optimize the fight. On snakes, you might need to move away from your healer who is following a tank. On deathbringer you might need to move away from the hunter who just ran back after dropping a trap. A large number of fights involve a positioning component, and run speed to boots helps not only your own dps, but the raid as a whole.

Raids go much smoother when everyone is doing what is best for the raid, not what gets them an extra 22 personal dps.

Here are some places to start when looking for discussion about runspeed:

http://elitistjerks....12/#post1308924

http://elitistjerks....p2/#post1395807

#32 Snowy

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 02:58 AM

We understand that, on paper, moving without DPSing is a DPS decrease and that moving faster can reduce this loss, but saying that "lots of people already think run speed is better since a long time ago" without actually providing a practical example of such is silly. A million people can believe something for thousands of years, but that doesn't make it true.


The math on this is pretty elementary. If I just use Simcraft, I find that the value of 12 crit is about 19 dps -- the DPS in one of the T10 sets that I'm fiddling with increases from 10604 to 10623. Figuring out the value of the +hit is more tricky, but if I can take full advantage of it, running Simcraft with Icewalker and without it at 277 hit rating from gear yields an increase of 65 dps.

We can solve how much we have to move for to make this worth it by the following logic:

Let X = the amount of damage you lose over the entire encounter by not using Icewalker.
Let Y = your DPS
Let Z = the time you need to spend DPS'ing to make up the lost time from moving = X/Y

So, for example, lets assume a 5 minute fight, you do 10604 damage.

X = 65*300 = 19500
Y = 10604
Z = 19500/10604 = 1.84 seconds

Finally, let T = the amount of time you have to travel for Z to be 8% of your travel time. T/100*8=1.84, so T=23 seconds. Now if every single time you have to move it's for less than 1.3 seconds (or whatever your GCD is) and you can use SWD, then obviously you've lost less DPS -- but you've still lost *some* DPS. I'm unsure how to model this, as sometimes you'll be able to SWD while moving when the only thing you could cast next would have been mind flay, and sometimes you'll have to move right when VT is about to fall off and MB is coming off cooldown next, and sometimes it'll line up perfectly with reapplying DP. 23 seconds seems like a lot of travel time, but it's only 4.5 seconds per minute. I certainly run more than that on Faction Champs, Twins and Anub -- and maybe on Beasts depending on if I get Snobolled and other RNG in p2/p3.

Note also that if we do that same math if we only benefit from the crit:

X=19*300=5700
Y=10604
Z=5700/10604=0.54 seconds.
T=6.75 seconds, or only 1.35 seconds of movement each minute required to break even.

Finally, maybe your guild doesn't give a crap, but most (good) guilds take a pretty dim view of people who stand extra time in the fire just to boost their own personal dps by a fairly small amount. When I'm in some kind of AOE or whatever situation you want to present, I'm not "waiting for a GCD." The benefits from run speed outweigh anywhere from a 19 to 65 DPS increase, and that 19-65 DPS increase is if you never, ever have to move, which is an unrealistic assumption for most fights.

And Snowy, to claim that stamina and run speed benefit DPS more than crit and hit rating or even spirit means that the burden of proof is, in fact, on you.


I'd like to close that you're extremely confused as to how this works. When you're trying to disprove the points made in the guide, the burden of proof is on you to prove that it's wrong. You can't just wave your hands and say it's wrong. The math has been done in the past, and I just had to waste time redoing it because you were too lazy to bother searching. If you want to talk numbers, you're more than welcome to do so, but otherwise we're not going to shit this thread up further with this topic.

#33 Dieselam

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 08:07 AM

Can anyone tell me the cap for haste?

#34 Bowchikabow

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 08:53 AM

Can anyone tell me the cap for haste?


Look to the first page (if not in the original post) to find the answer for this.

I had wondered about that previously, as I had believed the value of haste after a certain percent/rating would lead to a decrease. I agree with the response post I received, which was "there is no cap".

As for the response, one small question. is there a way to create a numeric value for potential dps loss from spell collision? I admit that this is what I worry about most when increasing, or considering increasing my haste.
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#35 Mearis

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 10:47 AM

Look to the first page (if not in the original post) to find the answer for this.

I had wondered about that previously, as I had believed the value of haste after a certain percent/rating would lead to a decrease. I agree with the response post I received, which was "there is no cap".

As for the response, one small question. is there a way to create a numeric value for potential dps loss from spell collision? I admit that this is what I worry about most when increasing, or considering increasing my haste.


An exact analitical solution is possible in theory, but in practice it is completely horrible (you have to use markov chains for dependent events every time you have a fork). The easiest way is to just run simcraft at different levels and see what the value of haste is at different gear rating.

#36 Demgar

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 12:04 PM

An exact analitical solution is possible in theory, but in practice it is completely horrible (you have to use markov chains for dependent events every time you have a fork). The easiest way is to just run simcraft at different levels and see what the value of haste is at different gear rating.


You could probably model it using a Monte Carlo simulation. Simulating an exact stand up fight as many times as you have the processing for, and introducing interruptions randomly, then examining the DPS loss incurred. You would want to look pretty closely at actual fight data to get accurate bounds on movement frequency and duration, as well as a good assumption on the distribution.

Edit: Since there are a reasonably finite number of events that can occur, were someone extremely motivated to get that extra 22 DPS they could build a stochiastic table they could drive with the simulation and run it as an overall or even individually per fight.

#37 mosebro

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 12:31 PM

There is a remarkable post done by Muqq over on spriest.com where he went into great detail about haste at different levels.

Here is a link to it: shadowpriest.com • View topic - Shadow Priest haste cap

#38 Elimbras

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 02:58 PM

The absolute value of haste doesn't decrease. However, it shall be said that the value of other stats (ie spellpower and crit) grows as haste increases. That's the case for most stats (they increases the value of other stats), and that's the point of balancing stats.

Now, I wouldn't really bother about spell collision for shadow priest. The cycle is not a fluid one, and it's not very likely that a very specific amount of haste leads to a huge (or low) number of collision. That could be the case with a more spammy cycle (one nuke on cd, one filler spell : you want to fill your cd with an integer amount of filler spells if possible). But for sp, there is lots of different filling duration.
On top of that, haste tends to fluid limit of spells, ie. to reduce the granularity of spells. Not much, but a little, and that will decreases the collision effect of cd-based spells (but not that of dots, now that they scale with haste).

#39 Endahl

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 03:01 PM

A few points: Potent Ametrine are not a choice because Reckless Ameterine are always better. There might be some really really wierd gear scenario where crit overtakes haste, but realistically speaking, you are almost always better off gemming for haste.

I've been observing that if you stack haste and temp haste effects you will rather quickly have SimCraft pooping out higher crit scale factors. For me it's really close, three Potent and the rest Reckless turns up a higher dps than all Reckless, but all Potent is lowest, mucking about with an 850ish haste, 550ish crit, engineering + Scale of Fates profile and optimal raid. I suspect this has more to do with the crit relative value becoming higher at very high haste values (while haste's absolute value is still higher than crit) rather than any "weird gear scenario". Even if it comes down to a specific gear point giving unexpected scale factors, that still doesn't rule out Potent as a choice.

#40 Mearis

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 03:27 PM

I've been observing that if you stack haste and temp haste effects you will rather quickly have SimCraft pooping out higher crit scale factors. For me it's really close, three Potent and the rest Reckless turns up a higher dps than all Reckless, but all Potent is lowest, mucking about with an 850ish haste, 550ish crit, engineering + Scale of Fates profile and optimal raid. I suspect this has more to do with the crit relative value becoming higher at very high haste values (while haste's absolute value is still higher than crit) rather than any "weird gear scenario". Even if it comes down to a specific gear point giving unexpected scale factors, that still doesn't rule out Potent as a choice.


I agree, and was surprised to find this out. Assuming equal DPS increase, crit is also better than haste since it does not increases DPS and efficiency.




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