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Shadowpriest Theorycraft 3.3 Edition - I get by with a little help from my friends


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#41 The Not So Evil

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 03:39 PM

The absolute value of haste doesn't decrease. However, it shall be said that the value of other stats (ie spellpower and crit) grows as haste increases. That's the case for most stats (they increases the value of other stats), and that's the point of balancing stats.


I just have to quote this, as its the new ShadowPriest reality. We're not playing 2.x (TBC) nor pre-3.x ShadowPriests anymore. We actually scale decently with more than just 1 stat. The only really cappable stat (given values within existing ilvl gear), is Hit Rating. We are no longer stacking just Spell Power like in TBC.

When it comes to the part about Haste Plateus, they are virtually gone, thanks to hasted Devouring Plague and Vampiric Touch. The Plateus were never that huge anyway. Reason for these Plateus were mostly spell collisions.

Just make sure you cap that Hit.
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#42 Taradenha

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 02:24 PM

Arcane mages also bring the damage buff. It's called Arcane Empowerment.

Another benefit of opening with MF3-MF2 is that it gives enough time for the rogue using tricks on you to open on the boss, so all 3 dots will have 15% dmg buff.

#43 Guest_Aeshun_*

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 04:05 PM

Arcane mages also bring the damage buff. It's called Arcane Empowerment.

Another benefit of opening with MF3-MF2 is that it gives enough time for the rogue using tricks on you to open on the boss, so all 3 dots will have 15% dmg buff.


Does using Tricks of the Trade on your Shadow Word: Pain allow you to keep 15% damage on SW:P the entire fight with Mind Flay? Or will it refresh to normal when your Tricks falls off?

#44 Mearis

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 05:05 PM

Does using Tricks of the Trade on your Shadow Word: Pain allow you to keep 15% damage on SW:P the entire fight with Mind Flay? Or will it refresh to normal when your Tricks falls off?


Prior to the patch, it would stay the entire time, I am not sure about now and that's an excellent question worth empirically testing.

#45 c4tuna

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 11:05 PM

I tested shadow weaving after the Corruption hotfix went through and there was no change, so I would expect there to be no change in ToTT as well. It's worth testing though if someone has the time.

#46 Taradenha

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 12:46 AM

Just tested it. The mechanics are the same, a dot casted under the effects of tricks will keep the buff for the entire duration, SW:P will keep the buff for the entire fight.

I can't run simulations right now, but i'd like to see at what levels of crit and haste they have the same PP value.
If we can trade crit for haste on a 1:1 ratio the maximum dps point would occur where 1 crit rating gives the same dps as 1 haste rating.
Just use some fixed amount of SP and fixed sums of crit and haste. For example 3000 SP and 1400 crit + haste, then calculate the PP value of crit and haste for different splits between the two stats, this might give us an idea of when to start gemming crit again.

Edit: Actually, when you trade crit for haste you end up changing the scale factor of the other stats, thus its not true that the maximum dps for that amount of crit + haste is achieved when crit PP = haste PP, but its very close to it.
I'll do some simulations when i get back home.

#47 c4tuna

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 11:29 PM

The tailoring is too low--I think you used my old math with the inflated pre-SWP nerf values of haste for it; since Haste is at almost no point better than SP, it should still be >50 PP.

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 02:52 AM

Out of curiosity, is Inner Focus still bugged to the point where it won't affect a dot's chance to crit? I've seen some shadow priests recently speccing into it and am wondering if they are using it with Shadow Word: Pain at the start or just saving it for emergency Divine Hymns or something along the lines of that.

#49 c4tuna

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 04:27 AM

Many Spriests are removing points from Focused Mind (used in H Anub to make mind searing less mana-hungry) and putting 2 back in Imp VE, and another in Inner Focus. Inner Focus's best use, in the opinion of many good shadow priests, is to macro it to Divine Hymn as a clutch raid-saver. The extra crit and 0 mana cost is very useful there.

#50 Nurru

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 05:43 AM

Taking points out of Focused Mind or Vampiric Embrace is silly. You have plenty of spare points if you don't go with the Spirit Tap line (which has been proven to be awful at best).

#51 Icecx

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 07:05 AM

Taking points out of Focused Mind or Vampiric Embrace is silly. You have plenty of spare points if you don't go with the Spirit Tap line (which has been proven to be awful at best).


It's better than losing a few spellpower.

#52 Nurru

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 07:13 AM

It's better than losing a few spellpower.


Imp Vampiric Embrace is better than spending 5 talent points for a tiny dps gain per point.

#53 Enreekay

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 08:00 AM

Imp Vampiric Embrace is better than spending 5 talent points for ~3-4 dps per point.


And what about Focused Mind? It's a fairly small MP5 boost, and is even less useful now that we have an open glyph slot for Glyph of Dispersion.

#54 c4tuna

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 01:49 PM

Did I say they're taking points out of Imp VE? No, I said they're turning 3/3 focused mind into 0/3 focused mind, 2/2 Imp VE, and 1/1 Inner Focus. Read my post before you make a big deal about something, please. 2/2 VE is amazing now, but it was sub-par on Anub when 1 VE + JoL was enough to keep a ranged group up and any overheal went directly into Anub's health pool.

I don't know how you can give up ST/Imp ST anymore with the spirit changes. Considering how many fights in ICC have adds and spirit's new buffs, proccing a spirit tap is a jump in several hundred spellpower and lots of delicious manareg. I find it to be far more useful than focused mind (which is what, 50 MP5? maybe if it affected DoTs it'd be useful) in any practical application.

#55 Blinder

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 02:15 PM

Hello not sure if this is the right place for this but...

Since the patch i believe Haste and SP are now a level field in the way they benefit shadow priests. I have been stacking haste and currently have about 28% unbuffed with around 18% crit unbuffed and 2780 SP (with inner fire) my question is. Is that to much haste should i be dropping some getting more crit / spell power, by changing some gear around in my bags i can get more haste but at the cost of crit. what is the ideal haste rating any comments would be great.

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#56 Gelmash

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 02:57 PM

The issue I've always had with Imp VE is that most of the time when your healers are doing a good/really good job Imp VE is just a bunch of over-heals.

Here's my spec, The World of Warcraft Armory

I haven't gotten to play in a while and I plan on changing it to -3 shadow affinity, -1 focused mind, +4 Imp MB.

My spec is a good mix of mana regen, cost reduction, and gets those extra DPS points where it can.

#57 c4tuna

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 03:13 PM

Hello not sure if this is the right place for this but...

Since the patch i believe Haste and SP are now a level field in the way they benefit shadow priests. I have been stacking haste and currently have about 28% unbuffed with around 18% crit unbuffed and 2780 SP (with inner fire) my question is. Is that to much haste should i be dropping some getting more crit / spell power, by changing some gear around in my bags i can get more haste but at the cost of crit. what is the ideal haste rating any comments would be great.

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Simcraft and Rawr are your friends. Use them; it's not our job to optimize your character for you.

The issue I've always had with Imp VE is that most of the time when your healers are doing a good/really good job Imp VE is just a bunch of over-heals.

Here's my spec, The World of Warcraft Armory

I haven't gotten to play in a while and I plan on changing it to -3 shadow affinity, -1 focused mind, +4 Imp MB.

My spec is a good mix of mana regen, cost reduction, and gets those extra DPS points where it can.


Imp mind blast is mandatory 5/5 to max DPS, and focused mind and shadow affinity are trash talents. Threat should never be an issue, and focused mind gives negligible cost reduction. Imp VE is good because when it counts, it saves lives. It should not be neglected in any serious raiding shadow priest's arsenal. Don't worry about mana regen as a shadow priest because we have Shadowfiend and Dispersion. Further, you should replace your glyph of mind sear as it's nigh-useless in most encounters. The common choice is Glyph of Dispersion as it gives superior regen to Glyph of SWP and reduces the cooldown on your Oh Shit! button.

#58 Malchizedek

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 10:10 PM

The common choice is Glyph of Dispersion as it gives superior regen to Glyph of SWP and reduces the cooldown on your Oh Shit! button.


question - does anyone really need to hit dispersion more than once every 2 min as an oh shit button? if so i think they must be bad. And if we actually use it ever 1 min 15sec as mana regen it might give us more mana than glyph of swp but isnt taking 6 sec out of dps every min a dps loss? do we really need that much mana? i use shadow fiend twice every fight (once with heroism/bloodlust) and if i ever have a few extra sec or get below 50% mana i use symbol of hope + dispersion to top me off and give some random raid members a min-innervate... is this all just preference or is there something significantly better about glyph of dispersion over glyph of swp?

#59 Nurru

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 10:29 PM

Did I say they're taking points out of Imp VE? No, I said they're turning 3/3 focused mind into 0/3 focused mind, 2/2 Imp VE, and 1/1 Inner Focus. Read my post before you make a big deal about something, please. 2/2 VE is amazing now, but it was sub-par on Anub when 1 VE + JoL was enough to keep a ranged group up and any overheal went directly into Anub's health pool.


My post wasn't intended to be confrontational, but you seem to have taken it that way. Please, go back and read what you said:

Many Spriests are removing points from Focused Mind (used in H Anub to make mind searing less mana-hungry) and putting 2 back in Imp VE, and another in Inner Focus.

Your post implies they didn't have Imp VE in the first place, so having Spirit Tap would be via not having points in Imp VE. My argument was picking spirit tap line over imp ve line. I could have been more clear, but despite H Anub there is enough benefit to Imp VE that leaving it out for a very marginal dps gain was silly. It's obviously a stronger talent now than it was, but it was never anything to scoff at to begin with.

question - does anyone really need to hit dispersion more than once every 2 min as an oh shit button?


There are plenty of times where large predictable damage is coming, or where you may have a period where you can dispersion for a few ticks. Icehowl's Stomp, Jumungar burrow, Faction Champions (both for snares and survival), Twins Vortex, end of Anub p2, spikes on Marrowgar, etc. We don't even have hard modes yet, so you can imagine damage is only going to ramp up.

#60 Frmercury

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 11:30 PM

Dispersion

Again, its one of those things you need until you need it. In later ICC fights, and months from now when HMs come out, there will be a greater need for the 'oh shit' button. Especially as your guild learns the encounters.

Lets look at it from another way: do you really need any third glyph? No, MF + Shadow are the only two that you really should have. So if you had to choose between mana you don't need (SW:P), DPS loss (SW: D), range you don't need (MS), or a shorter CD 'oh shit' button (Disp) which would you pick? So what if I don't use the shorter CD every time, it's still has the opportunity for greatness.




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