Jump to content


Photo

Force builds/talents or not?


  • Please log in to reply
71 replies to this topic

#41 Arkhon

Arkhon

    Lord Dancealot

  • Members
  • 7 posts

Posted 26 September 2006 - 02:30 AM

My guild doesn't force specs persay, but there is a fair amount of competition between members of each class that leads to players min/maxing their PvE specs to beat their fellow class members on the DPS meters or to hit that 6k Gheal crit. I feel this is the one of the better ways around the forced spec dilemma. All our Priests are Holy, only 1 of our Druids is Feral and our Paladins are all Healbot specced because they don't want to be the one that fails their healing assignment on raid night.

Our Mages/Rogues/Hunters will spec however they have to to push the most DPS in a raid environment because of this competition between them all. We're currently in late Naxx and spec has never been an issue because the competition between classes provides that incentive that people need to accept their PvE spec.

#42 Vykromond

Vykromond

    the staleness of Max's dumps

  • Moderators
  • 7,777 posts

Posted 26 September 2006 - 03:04 AM

We have members specced whatever they want to, although there are "strongly recommended talents" for some classes, like 15% casting regen for Druids and Priests. It's as Anias said- there are far less obtrusive things you can do to your raid corps than disrupt their talent selection.

#43 Bad Luck

Bad Luck

    ffffff

  • Moderators
  • 3,009 posts

Posted 26 September 2006 - 03:34 AM

Any time there is less than 4 warriors in a raid I ask Gurg if I can respec.

He always says no. :(

....and I usually can't afford to. Stupid 50g respecs.

#44 CrazyCarl

CrazyCarl

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 101 posts

Posted 26 September 2006 - 05:00 AM

It's always so nice when you have those off-spec healers selflessly passing on healer loot to the pure healing specs... then they bitch and moan when they don't get the DPS gear they want. That's something I've seen in my experience with shadowmages, but hey, I haven't seen too many so maybe it's not always that way(I'd hope not). Passing up healer loot just gimps you even further to the point where you've found yourself at the end of BWL without a 3 piece Trans bonus, or going into Naxx with ~400+healing and being Shadow to boot. Yeah, you can heal fine in a DPS spec, but why gimp yourself and the raid doing so?

By not taking good healing gear you're gimping yourself and making things more difficult for the other 39 people. As a result though I would hope that healers that did that would be allowed shots at DPS gear (2.5 comes to mind, maybe Mish'undaire or Mantle of the Blackwing Cabal if you're feeling particularly frisky and your DPS classes aren't stuck in Tier 1). I had a shadowmage once try to pass on Trans boots even when everyone else in the raid had them, and he still refused to take them even after being told that because he thought it would adversely affect his chances at getting DPS gear.

Seriously though, if you've been raiding this long, it's highly likely you'll be doing so into the forseeable future and EVENTUALLY you'll get that DPS stuff you crave so badly (our priests were able to get Oracle as of a few weeks ago for example).

#45 delljit

delljit

    Piston Honda

  • Allied Members
  • 112 posts

Posted 26 September 2006 - 06:06 AM

There shouldnt need to be "forced" specs. If you appreciate your position in the raid and appreciate the opportunity you have to experience end game content, you should take it upon yourself to be the best you can. Either you want to be there or you dont, you may as well spec to make yourself better at the job you're meant to do.

What im saying is spec shouldnt need to be forced, it should be the personal responsibility of the player to understand a particular spec is more beneficial to the raid. Raiding isnt about playing how you want to play, join a guild for 5 mans and pvp if you want to be a useless moonkin or shadow priest. Raiding, naxx especially, requires you to fill a particular role, and until its on farm you have certain standards to adhere to. Why make everyone elses job more difficult because you arent happy with the requirements of your class in a raid setting? There are ofcourse people who are just good at their class and spec makes little differene in their ability to perform well, however there are also others who are the complete opposite. Their performance is notably lower when an offspec and they want all the dps loot as equal priority. In that case im sure there may be someone on the bench who can do their job better and can sub in for the good of the raid.

Maybe thats just me talking as a warlock where spec makes little to no impact on my ability to pvp/grind/whatever.

#46 Lank

Lank

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 64 posts

Posted 26 September 2006 - 08:24 AM

I
So far the feedback has been good and people like it, personally I went from an MS/Enrage specc with ash to 5/31/15 OT specc with ash and it works really well.

How do they survive without TM :o
(I'm 7/31/13)

#47 Bubba

Bubba

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 344 posts

Posted 26 September 2006 - 10:49 AM

We've never forced specs on any of our players, we simply give priority spots to players with essentially PvE specs. Works a charm.

That Premeditation/Throwing Weapons rogue might be the coolest guy ever, but you're never going to give him a spot over a combat spec rogue, and if he never comes on raids, why exactly is he in your guild?

#48 Kegsta

Kegsta

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 208 posts

Posted 26 September 2006 - 11:21 AM

We don't enforce any specs, but there is certainly peer pressure there, mages it doesn't really matter, aslong as someone has the improved scorch or winters chill anyone of that spec is fine, warriors can do everything including twin emps as fury, we never had a warrior with a single point in prot until maexna.
Id agree with the above posters saying the best proforming/specced people should be given raid spots first, which may work fine for a while.
the main thing is if your going to do it, it must be universal, why are the priests and druids forced into healing while the rogues get to be prep or seal fate, or the palys get to be ret while the mages have to be frost. Try posting a reccomended spec for raiding on your guild forums, with reasons why it is the best.

as for the original post, you've finished BWL, Fire is better, even a lot of stuff in BWL isn't immune or even resistant to fire, the extra minute on the ebonroc/flamegore kills arn't going to hurt you

#49 Rogar

Rogar

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 152 posts

Posted 26 September 2006 - 03:45 PM

Forcing talent specs masks a fundamental problem in a guild's attitude and goals. Peer pressure and raid slot pressure are less direct, yet highly effective tools to get people to choose effective talent specs for the objectives at hand compared to resentful heavy-handed ultimatums.

#50 Seeten

Seeten

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 81 posts

Posted 26 September 2006 - 04:27 PM

On the mage "spec force" to Frost, my guild does 5 bosses in Naxx and kills C'Thun, and we dont have 1 single frost mage, mainly because frost is gimp. Fire is far higher raid dps than frost, and only the artificial penalties of MC Fire immune mobs make it less than perfect in MC, and in some parts of BWL.

Broodlord, Chrommag both favor the fire mage as well. The fire immune bosses clearly favor the frost mage, but honestly, MC is easy and can be done in greens.(I know, we did it in greens and bad blues before DM ever came out, let alone rank 10 pvp gear) You don't need specs, all you need is 25 people paying attention and 15 warm bodies to do MC.

#51 Brage

Brage

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 26 September 2006 - 05:51 PM

For now I have removed the rule and given all mages the right to build their talents any way they like. I’ll continue to monitor the situation. One of the things we do not wish is for us to suddenly spend more and more time in Blackwing Lair then we currently are due to lost DPS if all mages go fire.

But for now we’ll see how it goes.

#52 Vinsent

Vinsent

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 335 posts

Posted 26 September 2006 - 06:11 PM

I personally am against forcing specs.

Gear and player skill generally are much higher factors than any particular spec.

Really I think the best way to do things is fostering a sense of competition on your raid.

If bob off spec is number 3 on the DM for his class and Joe off spec is number 4. You pressure Joe to improve, if the only way Joe can beat bob is by specing x way and he does it, suddenly he’s number 3 and bob is number 4. Now its on Bob to elevate his play.

Elevating his play is maybe brining more consumables, or getting better gear, or what have you. Whatever he does he improves and now is number 3 again, and so on and so forth.

The gain you get to the raid by making the bottom of the chart players better is going to be much larger than you get from making the top end people 0.001% better.

Focus where you can get the largest gains, and I think the way to do that is to force the people to compete, but don’t focus on your top guys. The guys at spot 1 and 2 are doing their job, regardless of spec, its the guys at the bottom that you worry about.

My guild has never forced specs, and whenever our healers or dpsers or what have you change to an off spec they usually miss their power then had on their "on spec" and switch back.

Trust your guild members that if they are in a progress oriented guild they will spec for progress. And if they don’t know how best to do that they will turn to a skilled leadership of class leads and officers who can suggest things to help them.

That’s my 2 cents anyway.
Check out my board game! - www.facebook.com/TitansTactics

#53 Nork

Nork

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 1,067 posts

Posted 26 September 2006 - 07:32 PM

I've always viewed forced specs as the sign of a bad guild, although that might because the bad guilds on my server* are/were also the ones that forced specs on people.

Personally, I could care less what spec the mages in my guild have. Only two things matter to me about my mages:
1 - Are they getting the job done? If yes, then there's no reason to worry.
2 - Can they tell me why they've chosen their spec? If they have reasons for each point in their spec, then I have to trust that they know what they're doing.

In short, I was a mage who knows his stuff. If he knows what he's doing, he'll have an appropriate spec. It might not be a cookie-cutter spec, but it will be a spec that he knows he can play effectively.


*note: The most prominent guild on my server that forced specs gained their fame by releasing a video of their first Baron Geddon kill. It was a 43 minute long kill and required two repair bots. The mage who designed their forced mage spec also preferred spirit on his weapon instead of 30 spell damage. The guild is dead, but their legend lives on on Aggramar horde :).

#54 Khalim

Khalim

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 103 posts

Posted 27 September 2006 - 02:16 AM

My guild has never forced specs nor held strict class/loot priority (except recently on Dreadnought for MT's), sure its annoying when no pally has bok but we have put up with it and we have made reasonable progress without being anywhere near the bleeding edge (5/12 Naxx). Of course progress has a lot to do with other factors such as only 3 raiding nights, 60% casual guild, attendance issues, high turnover in certiain classes such as priests etc.

But a few weeks ago we ran into a real problem, 4 druids in the raid all feral or balance, no resto druids online (we have 2 in guild), thus no swiftmend for Maexena. We have killed her a number of time but this time we couldnt even get to P2. Is this the case of one boss you can't do without a resto druid or 2, or do we just need to keep practicing it?

#55 Ren

Ren

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 271 posts

Posted 27 September 2006 - 03:56 AM

sure its annoying when no pally has bok but we have put up with it and we have made reasonable progress without being anywhere near the bleeding edge (5/12 Naxx).

It's an 11 point expenditure in a relatively useless tree for raiding. A very small price to pay (imo) for 10% more survivabilty for the entire raid, extra dps to non-casters, and more mana/regen for casters.

But a few weeks ago we ran into a real problem, 4 druids in the raid all feral or balance, no resto druids online (we have 2 in guild), thus no swiftmend for Maexena. We have killed her a number of time but this time we couldnt even get to P2. Is this the case of one boss you can't do without a resto druid or 2, or do we just need to keep practicing it?

It's 50g max for a respec. Depending on how many times you wiped (one wipe is easily more than 50g in repairs, not even counting consumables), it may have been less expensive to cough up gold to respec a couple of your druids just for Maexxna.

#56 Ngita

Ngita

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 347 posts

Posted 27 September 2006 - 04:12 AM

It's an 11 point expenditure in a relatively useless tree for raiding. A very small price to pay (imo) for 10% more survivabilty for the entire raid, extra dps to non-casters, and more mana/regen for casters.

It's 50g max for a respec. Depending on how many times you wiped (one wipe is easily more than 50g in repairs, not even counting consumables), it may have been less expensive to cough up gold to respec a couple of your druids just for Maexxna.

When you have 7 raiding paladins in guild and 3 have bok, its suprising how often random odds can throw up that you only 3-4 paladins in the raid and none have bok.

On the other hand I have portaled, respecced and grabbed a summon on the realisation that we didnt have a bok paladin that night and I know a feral has done the same to resto.

#57 henaki

henaki

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 423 posts

Posted 27 September 2006 - 04:23 AM

But a few weeks ago we ran into a real problem, 4 druids in the raid all feral or balance, no resto druids online (we have 2 in guild), thus no swiftmend for Maexena. We have killed her a number of time but this time we couldnt even get to P2. Is this the case of one boss you can't do without a resto druid or 2, or do we just need to keep practicing it?

Have the guild reimburse the person with Respec + Respec Back cost + 10g for the additional respec price they'll be gaining, unless they are already at the 50g cap. Much cheaper than raidwide repairs.
Gur - Level 64 Undead Warlock on Hellfire

#58 Khalim

Khalim

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 103 posts

Posted 27 September 2006 - 04:44 AM

Yeah I did suggest the bank pay for the druids to respec but the GM was against the idea - belives they should do it off their own back. And yeah we did wipe a few times so was a lot more than 50g. One of the druids then did hearth and respec and after a 15 min break to wait for him to get back we tried again only to wipe a few more times before the GM called the raid, so I think we either need a 2 or more resto druids - as we have had the time when we killed her.

As for palys I think we have 1-2/7 speced for bok, so you do get a few raids without bok, which really sux but what can you do?

Personally I think everyone should be raid speced because we are mainly a pve guild but with 3 raid nights people do other things

#59 Bloodterror

Bloodterror

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 20 posts

Posted 27 September 2006 - 05:57 AM

You can certainly force specs. There is a time and a place for it, and hopefully your leadership is bright enough to realize when that is.

Rebirth doesn't force specs, because there are other optimizations we could make (and choose not to) before we would be at the point where forcing specs was correct. We have a fair number of very bright people in guild, and they'd call us on it if we started forcing specs before forcing the other optimizations that would make a much larger impact. That said, there are a lot of insecure and, frankly, quite terrible players/leaders in world of warcraft. What they choose to do to their guildmates and themselves is their own business, and they might even be in a guild where noone will call them on it. If you want an honest opinion, I would say the majority of guilds that force spec do not perform encounter analysis sufficient to understand why a spec is useful in an encounter, nor do they prepare for the average fight correctly, nor do they consider the merits of changing the raid distribution. In short, most guilds that force specs do so by rote, and can't really explain the reasoning behind their decision processes.

Before I would consider forcing specs, I would be certain the following were all done:

Each player had equivalent skill - the skill-less wonders are far more detrimental to your raid than the skillful but sub-optimally specced members. This is a long, and somewhat luck-dependant, process.

Each player made good gear decisions from the point of view of the raid. This probably means community loot council in each class.

Each player has equivalent attendance - the sunny-day raiding crew hurts your progress far more than a sub-optimal but dedicated member.

Each player is prepared, they bring consumables, in great numbers, they turn on their /combatlog, they understand what the plan for the encounter is, they communicate. Having members that put in 10% of the pre-fight effort is far more detrimental to your raid's progress than the sub-optimally specced members.

The raid is correctly configured. While it's nice to say "No shadow priests here" in a 18 healer raid, I'd certainly hope some of those healers are dpsing. If they aren't, why did you fill slots 15-18 with pure healbots who will spend the majority of their time doing nothing.

The raid's configuration is dynamicly updated during the raid to configure it for the next boss/trash. Ouro isn't rogue heaven, c'thun isn't 19 mellee guy, emps likes healers, huhuran doesn't. In naxx - noth likes mellee, heigan likes ranged, patchwerk likes healers, grob doesn't need healing. etc.

The fights are being analysed well - /combatlog and some smart people. If you are not analyzing your own fights, you don't need to force specs, you need to learn to play.

There's more, but that's the basic checklist. There are very few guilds that would gain more from forcing specs than from improving one of the above areas. If you judge your guild to be one of them, feel free to force specs. Speaking for myself, I'd find any guild-leader that told me to spec in his proscribed way without all of the above being taken care of, to be somewhat hypocritical. Your milage may vary. The core value to take away from this is - you want to play with players that are smart enough to perform this type of analysis, one of the requirements for dealing with smart people is to not make stupid decisions and try to enforce them. Forcing specs as a "holy-grail" to increasing raid performance is usually a stupid decision, and most of the smart gamers you want to game with will pick up on it.

Good luck.

I bet the rogues beg for you in their group. The things you describe are monumentally difficult to achieve and would take 10x as much effort and time as changing specs around. In some guilds' case they are actually impossible to accomplish. I've seen your own guild leader (a shadow priest if "mind blast YA RLY" is anything to go by) complain about not having enough time to raid and being unable to recruit to replace shitty members. So maybe the other optimizations aren't being made because they're bloody difficult to make and you know it. Why, then, are the easier ones not being made? Perhaps because the feral druids and shadow priests running the guild aren't setting a good example and people say if the GM won't even sacrifice for progression why the hell should I? Just a guess.

I'm reminded of a (Rousseau?) quote I heard once, to wit, "If the executive should say to me 'It is expedient for the state that you should die' then I would lay down my life gladly, for it is due only to the protection of the state that I have lived." Maybe remind them who got them the shiny gear they'd like to pvp with.

Try raiding more. When you raid 5+ days a week people don't mind being raid specs as much. I don't enforce specs and we have 1 MS warrior (of 9), all fire mages, no shadow priests, all resto druids, 1 non-combat rogue. The only outliers are paladins really, but if I asked one of them to spec kings and he said anything other than "put up a port" I'd just laugh in his face on vent and it would send a chill down everyone's spine. Difference between loot council and DKP?

That said the unruly mage is right, fire is better for where you're at in content, insubordination notwithstanding, he should be your new mage class lead.

#60 Bekah

Bekah

    Soda Popinski

  •  Patrons
  • 3,747 posts

Posted 27 September 2006 - 06:34 AM

I bet the rogues beg for you in their group. The things you describe are monumentally difficult to achieve and would take 10x as much effort and time as changing specs around. In some guilds' case they are actually impossible to accomplish. I've seen your own guild leader (a shadow priest if "mind blast YA RLY" is anything to go by) complain about not having enough time to raid and being unable to recruit to replace shitty members. So maybe the other optimizations aren't being made because they're bloody difficult to make and you know it. Why, then, are the easier ones not being made? Perhaps because the feral druids and shadow priests running the guild aren't setting a good example and people say if the GM won't even sacrifice for progression why the hell should I? Just a guess.

I'm reminded of a (Rousseau?) quote I heard once, to wit, "If the executive should say to me 'It is expedient for the state that you should die' then I would lay down my life gladly, for it is due only to the protection of the state that I have lived." Maybe remind them who got them the shiny gear they'd like to pvp with.

Try raiding more. When you raid 5+ days a week people don't mind being raid specs as much. I don't enforce specs and we have 1 MS warrior (of 9), all fire mages, no shadow priests, all resto druids, 1 non-combat rogue. The only outliers are paladins really, but if I asked one of them to spec kings and he said anything other than "put up a port" I'd just laugh in his face on vent and it would send a chill down everyone's spine. Difference between loot council and DKP?

That said the unruly mage is right, fire is better for where you're at in content, insubordination notwithstanding, he should be your new mage class lead.

Pssst. You're quoting a resto druid, one of our best healers (er... and the guild leader. The other officers are a fire mage, 3 heal specced paladins, a prot warrior, and me.... who specs between shadow and holy. I'm full holy atm because the content requires it). =P He's been feral in the past and has a great tanking set but chooses to heal. Rebirth raids 6 days a week =P

It really comes down to a matter of priorities. You can prioritize recruiting people willing to spec without consideration and follow like sheep, or you can recruit for people willing to take that walk on the wildside and run thier own numbers. We prefer to keep an open mind about specs and promote healthy competition and number crunching so that folks understand what they're doing and why. We have 1 full frost mage who's still not convinced that fire is higher dps for him (given gear and the fact that he is really bad about going splat without an iceblock). I think he'll come around eventually, but if he doesn't we'll manage. I don't feel that leadership by fear creates a strong guild atmosphere- luckily my fellow officers agree.

Some mage in some guild had to have specced out of the traditional Frost and into fire to have that "Oh shit!" moment when they realized that Fire was the new hot raiding spec for guilds past the hump of BWL. Innovations don't happen on thier own and every last one of us hopping on the bandwagon is following someone who had that lighbulb go off a little faster than average. Recruiting people who innovate isn't certain, but if you can find them, they're worth thier weightx10 in gold.

I'm not much of an innovater personally, but I can look at numbers and understand them fairly well and I do a lot of research and as such manage to earn my keep.
Those of you who volunteered to be injected with praying mantis DNA, I've got some good news and some bad news.
Bad news is we're postponing those tests indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men.
Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users