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Tree Healing Guide (IN PROGRESS)


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#21 Kirbie44

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 03:40 PM

I think the best solution, if you want to keep this thread going and have a class guide megathread of your own, is to add a substantial amount of your own content very soon. Otherwise I might ask you to leave the task of compiling a compendium of my posts to me (which I'd do sooner rather than later, despite above reservation, if people think it's really important to have a thread like this soon).


And this is the big thing I was worried about. But what you say in a lot of you posts and threads are worded better than what I could. I can change a lot of it, or even let you post yours, and make mine inactive/delete. People were just asking, and I figured I would throw this out there for now. A lot of changes will come in this thread shortly, as it was just put up. I'll send you a PM.
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#22 Hamlet

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 04:07 PM

And this is the big thing I was worried about. But what you say in a lot of you posts and threads are worded better than what I could. I can change a lot of it, or even let you post yours, and make mine inactive/delete. People were just asking, and I figured I would throw this out there for now. A lot of changes will come in this thread shortly, as it was just put up. I'll send you a PM.


If you are just keeping a compendium of my posts until I (or you or anyone) actually write a full guide, that's fine. I don't want to make too big a deal about it, I just don't want it to remain in this state indefinitely.

#23 Kirbie44

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 04:24 PM

The whole idea of dropping Nourish simply because we "have to" spec NG and Regrowth happens to be the only spell that benefits from it strikes me as stranger. Either I commit to something or I don't.


This spec isn't about to buff Regrowth. It is about full powered Wild Growth/Rejuvenation. Leaving us with Nourish/Regrowth (same as pre 3.3) for direct heals. Nourish will still hit harder, but Regrowth leaves a long HoT buffer. The difference is, Haste (which we not have plenty of) has more benifit to Regrowth, especially past the soft cap.

Maybe I should change that wording quite a bit, because this is a Rejuve/WG build, not a Nourish or Regrowth or anything else build.
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#24 Titanstrider

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 05:46 PM

I had started to compile a resto druid guide for the Think Tank just prior to 3.3 coming out, but honestly having seen the amount of effort Arawethion has put into the forums on the subject, I've not tried to reinvent that wheel until everything has settled as I would pretty much be copying and pasting much of his work which didn't feel right. It's reaching that point now where we know the effective mechanics of 3.3, and I think it would be fair to let Hamlet compile his work into a definitive guide, but it's great that you made an effort to get things going Kirbie.

Some of the beaten to death horses like revitalize versus LS shouldn't be brought up yet again here. Just because recount doesn't pad the druid's effective healing meter, revitalize is considered sub-par. It is in fact one of the best raids buffs in the game, as many parses posted in these forums have shown. Hamlet's aware of these issues, and I think would be best suited for explaining the common pros-cons of the options we have.

#25 MegaVolt

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 12:16 AM

Some of the beaten to death horses like revitalize versus LS shouldn't be brought up yet again here. Just because recount doesn't pad the druid's effective healing meter, revitalize is considered sub-par. It is in fact one of the best raids buffs in the game, as many parses posted in these forums have shown. Hamlet's aware of these issues, and I think would be best suited for explaining the common pros-cons of the options we have.


I know about the Revitalize issue and I know of a lot of theorycrafting behind it (which I don't find really convincing since in the end only Rogues, feral Druids and to a limited extend DKs have an actual benefit from it, mana and rage users don't tend to care at all) but I am not aware of an analysis of combat parses that shows Revitalize to be a major raid dps contribution. Could you please point me in the right direction there?
Having such a link in a resto guide would also be very beneficial imo.

Generally I feel the most important part in a finished 3.3 tree guide will probably be the talent discussion. As Arawethion pointed out there still is much unclear and as I see it now there won't be any clear cookie cutter spec, no real "must have" build and a lot of room for personal preference. Having detailed information about all those optional talents (like Revitalize) and their impact on the raid is vital.

Oh and a minor thing: Isn't the haste cap with CF 735 instead of 736?

Another thing I'd improve is the badge section. The problem we face right now is that we won't upgrade from 4t9 until at least 4t10 (if it turns out to be good ... and if it doesn't turn out to be good enough then blizz will either buff it or nerf t9 jus like they did when we didn't want to upgrade from 4t8 to 4t9). Buying the emblem or a trinket or anything will delay your 4t10 purchase, there is just no way around it. There should be a line in there somewhere mentioning the very solid option to just sit on your emblems, collect trophies if possible and get the ilvl 264 4t10 instantly once enough emblems have been collected. That's what I'm planning to do at least, I don't want to delay the t10 purchase for a week or two just to get an insignificant idol upgrade that's irrelevant right now anyway since there are no challening hard modes available yet. Generally with the way content is released and the lack of any kind of challenging encounters (no hard modes) I think "sit back, relax and wait" is the best advice in terms of gear right now.

This spec isn't about to buff Regrowth. It is about full powered Wild Growth/Rejuvenation. Leaving us with Nourish/Regrowth (same as pre 3.3) for direct heals. Nourish will still hit harder, but Regrowth leaves a long HoT buffer. The difference is, Haste (which we not have plenty of) has more benifit to Regrowth, especially past the soft cap.


I don't think using a Rejuv/WG healing style and just replacing Nourish with RG for spot healing is really all that viable.
The problem is that RG will only be a good replacement for Nourish if the NG proc is active. Without NG it casts way too slow so that even an untalented Nourish would be better. So for RG to be a good replacement for Nourish we have to make sure NG is active most of the time - which means we have to use RG quite often. It has to become our new main spell or at least one of our main spells, cast about as often as Rejuv to get an acceptable NG uptime. This is fine since RG and Rejuv have quite similar base HPS (if you take Living Seed into account which can't be skipped for that reason).
If you just use RG occasionally you end up completely wasting those 3 points in NG. It will just never be up, never do anything. So in the end getting CF costs you 7 talent points without any other beneficial effects, sacrificing your awesome 1s spot heal in order to gain a weaker 1.4s spot heal with a small HoT on it and that uneasy tension between Revitalize and Living Seed.
If you start using RG a lot you gain a front loaded heal (which actually is pretty awesome and very useful in ICC for me so far) but lose out on Revitalize (RG doesn't proc it) and you get serious mana issues.

One thing to think about when chosing a RG centered build is that it will benefit from haste far over the cap, meaning that it would be possible to ignore 4t10 and take 3 off pieces with haste on them (and ofc the 2 haste set pieces). Disregarding the mana issues for a moment it might just be that the better RG scaling with haste past the gcd cap makes up for the loss of the Rejuv set bonus (e.g. if it happens to consume the initial Rejuv on the jump).

Without really going all out RG I don't thing that spell is a valid replacement for Nourish. 1s or 1.4s cast time is a huge difference and the harder hitting Nourish might just make the difference in spot healing. The CF build is a good one if you never ever cast any spell besides Rejuv and WG but let's be honest ... do you really do that? Do you never have to help out on the tank for a few seconds during guild progression or pick that dude up that was standing in the fire a bit too long? 7 talent points only to get 121 haste seems a bit much when we have to sacrifice so much versatility for it.
Having a RG centered healing style on the other hand doesn't really have to be that bad. Losing Revitalize hurts, mana is an issue but front loaded spells are easy to handle and usually quite efficient. It might turn out to be viable in full 264 gear (so that we can go past the gcd haste cap quite a bit and get enough spirit/int to be able to sustain RG).

#26 jula

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 02:30 AM

but I am not aware of an analysis of combat parses that shows Revitalize to be a major raid dps contribution. Could you please point me in the right direction there?


I can give you a link to a WOL parse showing the gains from Revitalize over a full fight.
I think an almost ideal case (for demonstrating the potential of Revitalize's) is Twins in ToGC25, in which we had 2 resto druids simply spamming rejuv/WG none stop without moving (97% of the healing done by both druids was done by rejuv + WG).

here you can see that Replenish provided the raid with a total of 176k mana during the fight (3:59 min).
In that same fight Revitalize (by 2x trees) gave the raid 119k mana, 576 runic power,632 energy, and 84 rage combined.

How much extra damage was caused by that extra runic, energy and rage i can't say, maybe someone else wants to give a lower bound or estimation. However what is very clear is Revitalize was at least 67% as good as replenish, if you only count the mana gained. This would make each single druid's 3/3 Revitalize equal to at least 33.8% the mana regen of replenish (and remember a single player doesn't provide the entire 25man raid with replenish, you need a couple of replenish providers), assuming a rejuv/WG spamming healing style.

Another interesting thing in this log is that Revitalize gave roughly 100k mana to healers, arcane mages, and a warlock. The remaining 19k mana went to other mana users (rets, prot palas, hunters, enhac shamans etc). Now arcane mages and warlocks gaining more mana means more dps, since locks need to tap less and mages can afford to skip evocation or use higher dps rotations. Its obviously good for your healers to have more mana. So claims of the extra mana being useless are far from true, at least in my opinion.

Seeing these logs, I consider Revitalize a must have talent for a raiding resto druid.

#27 bdx

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 12:24 PM

Can you tell me why did you choose crit head and shoulders enchat instead of mana regen?


e: Oh nevermind, I did not see a small note above. Delete post, please.

#28 MegaVolt

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 11:16 AM

Thanks jula. I payed a little more attention to my own raid logs (actually I wasn't aware that WoL lists Revitalize like that, thanks!) and it seems yours is more favorable towards Revitalize than mine. We also run with 2 resto Druids and being one of them I usually gain 20% (e.g. our last Jaraxxus HC kill) to 30% (our last Iron Council HC kill, 5x1 style fight) of Replenishment mana from Revitalize. That puts each Druids Revitalize at about 15% of Replenishment as opposed to your 30%.
The difference can be explained by the fact that you only had 2 sources of Replenishment in the raid so I guess you hardly had 100% uptime on everyone. We had 5, giving it basically a 100% uptime.

Still, 15% worth of Replenishment (for mana users alone - plus the effect on RP, rage and energy) is pretty awesome. I, too, consider it a mandatory talent now ;)

#29 Kirbie44

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 02:53 PM

Still, 15% worth of Replenishment (for mana users alone - plus the effect on RP, rage and energy) is pretty awesome. I, too, consider it a mandatory talent now ;)


If only the rest of the community were as "open" as you :)

For standard talents, I think I am going to keep what I have, maybe open up the area for more discussion/opinions. I'll make a link to Jula's post with the combat parse in the talent section.

735/736 Haste with CF, I recall 736, but I'll have to search and redo the math to see if it is 735.
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#30 Hamlet

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 02:56 PM

If only the rest of the community were as "open" as you :)

For standard talents, I think I am going to keep what I have, maybe open up the area for more discussion/opinions. I'll make a link to Jula's post with the combat parse in the talent section.

735/736 Haste with CF, I recall 735, but I'll have to search and redo the math to see if it is 736.


It's 734.99. TreeCalcs will spit out your exact cap in any combination of buffs as well.

#31 Kirbie44

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 03:21 PM

I don't know how much itemization I want to use in this thread, but I feel proc's off and have their right to be put into this. My guild does not have the trinket yet, nor a druid with the Legendary, and Trauma was just made available today. I was looking for possibly a few different logs with these items, as well as the confirmation of whether the Abacus is a smart heal or not. I am positive it is, but I have not seen it live myself.
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#32 MegaVolt

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 03:32 PM

The other Druid in my guild won the single Althor's Abacus that dropped for us so far. The proc usually makes up about 1.5% to 3% of his overall healing done which I find quite impressive. It certainly is our new BiS trinket I'd say.

#33 Kirbie44

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 03:37 PM

The other Druid in my guild won the single Althor's Abacus that dropped for us so far. The proc usually makes up about 1.5% to 3% of his overall healing done which I find quite impressive. It certainly is our new BiS trinket I'd say.


One thing to keep in mind is they don't stack (heroic and non) like the Solace's did. The heroic version is 201 SP and clearly better than IDS. Can the proc crit that you know of?
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#34 MegaVolt

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 03:41 PM

One thing to keep in mind is they don't stack (heroic and non) like the Solace's did. The heroic version is 201 SP and clearly better than IDS. Can the proc crit that you know of?


I just checked the logs, yes it can crit.
In our Iron Council HC kill it just did 1.5% of his healing done. Since it's a 5x1 fight there was plenty of healing an the trinket couldn't really shine.
On our last Jaraxxus HC kill on the other hand it did 4.3% of his healing output. The smart heal really shines there I guess.

#35 Playered

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 03:44 PM

The proc "Echoes of Light" from the Abacus can indeed crit and seems to roughly make up around 2-3% of my healing (tending to the upper end) but I'm still uncertain if it is a smart heal or not as it tends to stick around the 40% overheal mark.


Regarding your opening post:

"Yellow: [Reckless Ametrine] - to haste cap [Luminous Ametrine] - after haste cap" is debatable as having the Reckless gems in might allow you to use one of the crit items with higher SP (boots and bracers right now for example) if by some chance you manage to go over the cap anytime soon and the trade off of getting more Int or more SP should be very easy to decide on. This also assumes the socket bonus is worth doing so over just putting a Runed gem in the first place but I haven't personally gone over my final gear list with a comb yet to decide on those minor details at the moment.

The talent point section is probably better off using a base spec such as this (11/0/51) where granted there are 2 'floater' points which must be attributed to progress to the 5th and 10th tier where people could deviate on slightly. Then having the current available options from then on such as going into CF, Living Seed, Revitalize, Nature's Grace for the last 9 points with the details about each listed for players to have informed choices.

#36 Kirbie44

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 03:45 PM

I just checked the logs, yes it can crit.
In our Iron Council HC kill it just did 1.5% of his healing done. Since it's a 5x1 fight there was plenty of healing an the trinket couldn't really shine.
On our last Jaraxxus HC kill on the other hand it did 4.3% of his healing output. The smart heal really shines there I guess.


It will tend to see its glory on fights where debuff/non-aoe damage is done. Jaraxxus is a good example of this. I mean by this it's % heal will go up, as it will rarely be overheal (similar to Divine Storm) and the overall healing done during the fight will go down. 2M healing done on a 4M Jaraxxus fight compared to 10M Healing done on a 4M Heroic Twins fight. The trinket procs for total of 25k, it has more % healing on Jaraxxus than Twins.

And not that it is much, but it makes the heal utilize crit rating as well.
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#37 ttyl

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 06:06 PM

delete sorry meant to pm

#38 Kirbie44

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 06:47 PM

"Yellow: [Reckless Ametrine] - to haste cap [Luminous Ametrine] - after haste cap" is debatable as having the Reckless gems in might allow you to use one of the crit items with higher SP (boots and bracers right now for example) if by some chance you manage to go over the cap anytime soon and the trade off of getting more Int or more SP should be very easy to decide on. This also assumes the socket bonus is worth doing so over just putting a Runed gem in the first place but I haven't personally gone over my final gear list with a comb yet to decide on those minor details at the moment.

The talent point section is probably better off using a base spec such as this (11/0/51) where granted there are 2 'floater' points which must be attributed to progress to the 5th and 10th tier where people could deviate on slightly. Then having the current available options from then on such as going into CF, Living Seed, Revitalize, Nature's Grace for the last 9 points with the details about each listed for players to have informed choices.


I think I will elaborate more on the gems section. I personally fill socket bonus's because I am a little OCD about that. However, I do agree that possible throwing a few extra haste gems in for luminous in order to get higher ilvl gear that has crit may be an HPS upgrade, esp. with the 4T9 right now.

However, BiS includes Trauma, and since it is a non-heroic drop, it will be fairly easy to obtain (considering it drops and you win it), which has no haste. And the other 264 weapons have no haste on them IIRC. The 10m staff is a great alternative until we get Trauma, and easier to obtain. As well as we wouldn't have to use our awesome Hit/Haste offhand. I would assume Illidan drops a weapon of sort, so I won't go too far into this mess.

Edit: Really... I just refered to Illidan... *Lich King*.

I do understand a few topics need expanding, especially gemming in regards to pure SP and hybrids, and elaborate more on 25+2%. I however, haven't looked much into this other than 1 time glance, because I have always been 21+600 user.

I was debating on using the 11/0/51, and then elaborating on possible useful talents to put in from there, which seems like the logical choice for the OP.

Crit vs. Stat weights: I do think crit has it's value in the end. NS+HT, LS (if you pick that up), and a regular Swiftmend. It is not that useful for Nourish and Regrowth as they have amazing crit already. I will not render it useless, and it may become more useful if can crit like Abacus does. I am not saying this is our "ArP" stat, but don't throw it out the window. Proper stat weighting with Hybrid gems vs MP5/Crit head/shoulder enchant math can be done without 4PC T9. However, I feel that in 98% of the cases, MP5 is the better enchant outside of 4T9. I put the crit in the BiS enchants for now as 4T9 is mostly available, and I do not want it to be overlooked.
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#39 Dey

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 08:20 AM

Honestly, I don't understand the need for using crit enchants for Shoulders/Helmet. As you just mentioned, for nourish/regrowth, they have amazing crit already. Unless one is using 4 pieces of T9, I would recommend using the mana regen enchants despite how weak they may look, but they are much useful than crit on the long run.

And is also a good alternative to enchanting Tuskarr's Vitality and replacing that with 18 Spirit. As swapping between this gem and requires no changing of any other gems, however, you'd lose a chunk of regeneration.

#40 Deku

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 08:58 AM

Honestly, I don't understand the need for using crit enchants for Shoulders/Helmet.


Crit > mp5 enchants for me personally, I can't remember the last time I went oom. Living seed is very underrated.




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