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Tree Healing Guide (IN PROGRESS)


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#41 Payday

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 09:18 AM

I don't see the need for anyone to spec for CF. 856 haste rating sure sounds like a lot coming from mid 300s pre 3.3, but a smart druid would have seen this coming and started scraping up any haste gear they could get. I did just that and even with fair to good gear (Armory) I'm at 851 haste with only a few reckless gems. In fact my spec didn't change at all with the release of 3.3.

11/60 is the best overall spec, by far.

Looking through the loot lists for 264/277 gear I can't imagine not being able to hit 856 haste, even by accident, unless you are trying to work in the 4 piece bonus, which is certainly (at this point) not worthwhile. CF isn't needed now (245/251/258/264), or in the future (277) . Stop recommending these builds.

#42 MegaVolt

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 10:07 AM

unless you are trying to work in the 4 piece bonus, which is certainly (at this point) not worthwhile.


You seem to have missed the recent blue post stating that 4t10 will not consume the initial Rejuv. Depending on who it will jump to (if it can overwrite an existing Rejuv on the target) it might be a medicore bonus but it will certainly be worth getting even then. In case it won't jump to anyone who has Rejuv on him already it will be an awesome set bonus, about as strong as 4t9.
I at least am building my gear set around 4t10 and then getting to 856 haste - with Trauma of course, a weapon that has 0 haste on it - is really not that easy anymore.

#43 Payday

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 10:26 AM

No, I did see the post regarding 4T10, and have assumed the now-proven correct behavior all this time. I believe it is a decent bonus, and not something you build through, but add on at the end. You should build your set for haste cap then if you have room tack on your 2 extra pieces of T10 to get your bonus.

#44 Fallenangel

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 12:19 PM

Most smart druids are juggling around the cap because they've kept 4T9, so they use 2 crit pieces which makes it harder to reach the cap. And most will transition to 4T10 which has the same problem - granted somewhat lessened due to higher ilvl gear and some missing itemization holes filled.
Can't say I really see the appeal of 11/0/60 over 14/0/57. It gains you 3% crit and 5% spirit, both of which are pretty meager benefits. If you have only 1 resto spec, then it will be 14/0/57 or 18/0/53 depending on gear. To preempt : NG enables regrowth spam. 3% crit don't enable anything.

#45 Ogbar

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 02:38 PM

I'd suggest adding 5x1 to your terminology, its a very popular term around here and also one of our most basic healing rotations, which suggests perhaps a larger devotion than just a sentence in the terminology section but it'd be a good start.

Also, there's no mention in the gem section of using to reach hate cap. Pre-cap the value of 1 haste isn't much different from 1 spellpower so its a viable strategy while trying to fill in the non-badge pieces with sometimes hard to win random drops.

The comment about the badge idol seems very misplaced for an EJ guide. If it's an opinion, which is readily debatable, it probably can be left out of an authoritative guide.

All in all its a a good primer but I'm not sure it captures the depth of some of the debates on the forums such as the LS vs. Revitalize debate or really explaining that you shouldn't break 4t9 until 4t10. This will only lead to a rehashing of past discussions. If this is intended as a interim guide until Arawethion gets one up, I'd suggest including links to the posts you copied material from so that if you don't intend to include the supporting math it can be easily found.

Otherwise its a nice compilation, and its nice to see one of these guides up for resto druids, especially given the shake up of 3.3.

#46 Playered

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 03:53 PM

Even when you assume 1 haste = 1 SP it is still 20 points vs 22 points when using a hybrid gem so unless you are actually valuing haste above SP it still is illogical to do a 20 haste gem.

#47 Payday

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 03:59 PM

Most smart druids are juggling around the cap because they've kept 4T9, so they use 2 crit pieces which makes it harder to reach the cap. And most will transition to 4T10 which has the same problem - granted somewhat lessened due to higher ilvl gear and some missing itemization holes filled.
Can't say I really see the appeal of 11/0/60 over 14/0/57. It gains you 3% crit and 5% spirit, both of which are pretty meager benefits. If you have only 1 resto spec, then it will be 14/0/57 or 18/0/53 depending on gear. To preempt : NG enables regrowth spam. 3% crit don't enable anything.

Why are people so hung up about 4T9? Many times people have posted 5% gains on our best fight, Twins. If our best fight is only 5% gain, it's not worthy of dominating your loot decisions for the next month or so, and certainly not worthy of keeping you from haste capping, forcing you into a 18/53 build that compromises your healing ability.

Who spams regrowth, ever? I don't and can't see when that would be beneficial to have. At haste cap, my regrowth is already 1.4 seconds, anyways. The difference in spec merely provides the best passive, consistent buffs rather than hoping you proc NG.

I've had only 1 resto spec for the last 4 months and it's been 11/60 and I've never wanted to change or wish my build included something else. I have all the tools already.

#48 Kirbie44

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 04:25 PM

I'd suggest adding 5x1 to your terminology, its a very popular term around here and also one of our most basic healing rotations, which suggests perhaps a larger devotion than just a sentence in the terminology section but it'd be a good start.

Also, there's no mention in the gem section of using to reach hate cap. Pre-cap the value of 1 haste isn't much different from 1 spellpower so its a viable strategy while trying to fill in the non-badge pieces with sometimes hard to win random drops.

The comment about the badge idol seems very misplaced for an EJ guide. If it's an opinion, which is readily debatable, it probably can be left out of an authoritative guide.


At the beginning of the post, I talked about 5x1. I may add it to the terminology, but it has its own section. Also, I didn't mention 20 haste in the gems because I didn't really see it viable, and here is an easy way why. Runed + Quick = 23SP and 20 Haste. 2x Reckless = 24 SP and 20 Haste. Hybrid gems get you more SP overall. You are already gimping spellpower to socket haste. If you can't get to 700+ in your gear with a few reckless, you need to look for some haste drops, and work on them. Yes, it is an alternative, but I only recommend using reckless to pick up socket bonuses. I could go ahead and list any possible caster gem, and ways to gem in different situations, but this is about 25 man raiding as a spread tree. Haste itemization> Haste gemming. If you don't have haste on your gear, you have crit. Crit is very useless without your 4T9.

Gemming is your choice however, I know a lot of druids who don't even have a yellow or orange gem in their gear. You mention if it is an opinion, it can probably be left out. I can easily say 70% of this guide is an opinion. Stats, Spellpower coef., and Profession bonuses would be left. I understand there is 1 way to obtain the highest DPS possible for each DPS class. There is also a way to obtain the highest HPS possible. This is a good reason why nobody has made a healing post yet, because there is no absolute value on talents, stats / gems, gear, weapons, etc. To each roll / playstyle / gear level is their own. The guide itself is to be about the majority of 25 man druid healers; raid blanketing. These are reasons I suggest and push 3/3 CF, and drop LS and pick up revitalize. LS doesn't effect WG/Rejuve. Revitalize does. It makes the spell that much stronger.

This isn't directed towards you too much to say, but this is still being built and thought about. Opinions are all we have. There is math on certain mechanics of our arsenal, but what spells we like to buff with talents is based on personal preference. To come on here and post "That spec is bad, it doesn't have living seed!" is not really welcomed. Explain why not having LS is bad. Obviously, I do think dropping LS is worth it for something, and so do many others. I have thought to myself, how much action does living seed get? In my logs, it made up for less than 3% of my healing, on average. Then I dove deeper, finding out when my LS proc'd, who it healed, and if that healing was valuable. Over the course of 4 weeks worth of Ulduar raiding and progression, including the 4 keepers hard mode, I found that living seed, when it healed, typically healed it's target that was already above 65% health. ~77% of living seed heals were done on a target with Rejuvenation or Renew or PW:S on the target. Over 1/2 the time, that target was hit by a direct heal, be it Chain Heal, LHW, FH, FoL, etc, withing 1.5 seconds, causing that to over heal.

It was effective healing, and it has low over heal. The value of this healing however goes down, as I wasn't (and still am not) a tank healer. Damage was low then, and you only had to spam 1 target in ulduar and that was the Napalm Shells P1 of Mimiron. This is why I don't use Living Seed. 4T9, I decided to run with 3/3 NP over 3/3 LS. AGAIN, this is all about 25 man raid blanket healing style. My current spec as of this date is 3/3 LS, for my 10m content. Even with the CF build, the biggest loss is the 20% ET to Nourish. Even though I don't use it much, having Nourish hit that much harder is a big deal. I am really close into dropping living spirit to pick up 2/2 ET.

Again, healing strategies are personal preference in what works best for you and your guild/raid. It is your opinion on what talents/spells/itemization will work best for you. How the majority of knowledgeable resto druids treat their characters is what I am trying to convey in the guide. After healing with 4 different classes for 5 years, there is very little consistency in healing. Rotations and cooldowns and mana managment, healing assignments, talent points, spells to use, basically everything healing, changes per player, per fight, per class, per situation. Everyone knows this, and you can't quantify the best talents, or the best gem choices for every druid out there. 3/4 of this guide is my opinion based on my personal experience as a WotLK Tree. On controversial subjects, I will elaborate more on different choices. Like the Idol, or Living Seed. Thank you for all your comments about different aspects of the guide. More viewpoints is what it does need. But with those view points, please help me with sources/logs/something I can look at to help me see your argument/view. I am an open minded person, and very lenient. "Help me help you" - Tom Cruise :)
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#49 Fallenangel

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 04:35 PM

Why are people so hung up about 4T9? Many times people have posted 5% gains on our best fight, Twins. If our best fight is only 5% gain, it's not worthy of dominating your loot decisions for the next month or so, and certainly not worthy of keeping you from haste capping, forcing you into a 18/53 build that compromises your healing ability.

Who spams regrowth, ever? I don't and can't see when that would be beneficial to have. At haste cap, my regrowth is already 1.4 seconds, anyways. The difference in spec merely provides the best passive, consistent buffs rather than hoping you proc NG.

I've had only 1 resto spec for the last 4 months and it's been 11/60 and I've never wanted to change or wish my build included something else. I have all the tools already.


4T9 is equivalent to hundreds of SP in 5x1 situations. Comparing theoretical gains (from SP) to actual gains (4T9 on parses) isn't the best course of action. A 5% bonus is quite substantial, in any case.
It's funny you say that 11/60 provides consistent buffs when what you actually gain is 3% crit - hardly a consistent buff - and 5% spirit. Granted ~10SP is a consistent buff, but it's also a laughable one.
Whenever you chain nourish on someone that isn't a target, you should regrowth instead.

#50 Hamlet

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 04:49 PM

Let's not turn this into the next disassociated thread where we talk about random Resto topics with no organization or particular purpose. This is all why I was hesitant to post a "guide" myself. Most of the actual hard facts and straightforward conclusions can be summarized very briefly--in a rather short post--and the rest is still all open discussion. Even if I described all of my own conclusion on the right way to go about everything (gems/talents/spell choice), most people would just see it as a reflection of my own particular "healing style." And whatever you try to include, the last thing you want is to fall into some kind of all-encompassing discussion of healing in general--but it's hard to reach any firm conclusions on what exactly the Tree should be doing without getting into that.

Maybe I'll see what the other healing classes have to get a better sense of what works. But so far, this thread is bearing out exactly my thoughts on why it wasn't really a good idea in the first place.

#51 Kirbie44

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 04:58 PM

If you look at the priest forums, there is a lot of hot debate in every thread about certain talent points. Divine Fury vs Spell Warding has always been a hot topic for them. The choice to spec into and use GH is another. They don't die, and each healer has their own opinions.

I think the best alternative is to (for talents) make the base outline, and then elaborate the benefits of each Revitalize, Empowered Touch, Living Seed, and Natural Perfection - or any more talents that come up often. I should also add bonuses with Nature's Grace and Celestial Focus.
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#52 Guest_Aethillan_*

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 05:05 PM

In order to get to 735 or 856 haste, most druids probably chose to give up crit pieces for haste ones. Each piece that was swapped lowered the value of 4T9. A 5% bonus from 4T9 was most likely reflected in parses where our crit percentages were at their highest levels. Between the stat and sp gains of T10 level gear, and the reduction of our crit rate, the actual net loss of breaking 4T9 will be significantly less than 5%. Add in the gains from 2T10, the flexibility afforded by an 11/0/60 build and the removal of the RNG associated with 4T9, and breaking 4T9 early doesn't seem to be that difficult of a choice.

#53 Fallenangel

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 05:51 PM

Would be nice if the advocates of 11/60 can actually explain its benefits or flexibility. All it gives you is 2% crit on spells with high crit% anyway - I think the comparison to Nature's Bounty speaks for itself - and about 50 spirit which is translates to a few SP.
I just think a lot of people automatically read 14/57 as a build without ET = without nourish. This is simply not the case.

Edit: actually 2% crit.

#54 Carebare

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 06:18 PM

I think people are just frustrated that we must consider 18 deep in balance as more viable than spending 7 more points in the restoration tree when trying to spec for restoration. No one would agree with me, but I wouldn't mind if the balance talent was deeper and not even on the table for consideration.

That said in 264 set pieces and 277 offset pieces you can reasonably hit 853 haste with only 6 reckless gems. That's not a terrible trade considering the recoup of socket bonuses. Dropping CF prior to that would be too crippling or you'd be sacrificing too much spell power by using less than optimal pieces. At the end of the day it will come down to how lucky you are at drops and what you can lay hands on.

The argument that 4t9 bonus is RNG is flawed, at least in my opinion. There is nothing RNG about having a crit chance on a spell that even in moderate terms will account for at least 50% of your healing done.

To say there is RNG to the actual effectiveness of the heal would be accurate. If you crit earlier ticks you're less likely to be sniped. In fairness how much of the 4t9 crit actually prevents a death in your raid is probably quite low and nearly non-existent.

Edit to add: Moving forward the 4t10 is a more tangible bonus. You are possibly putting RJ on a target that did not have it, either because you were GCD locked healing elsewhere or the person took sudden damage. This gives you the ability to mend on someone you might not have had the chance on. Even if you discount 4t9 as required, 4t10 has a greater life-saving propensity. Once you take 4t10 you end up with the same haste problem people in 4t9 have.

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#55 Ogbar

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 07:52 PM

Runed + Quick = 23SP and 20 Haste. 2x Reckless = 24 SP and 20 Haste
...

...You mention if it is an opinion, it can probably be left out. I can easily say 70% of this guide is an opinion. Stats, Spellpower coef., and Profession bonuses would be left. ...


Point on the gems. Ironically, it was a thought process of red=23 spell power that had me thinking that way.

Agreed, the bit about the emblem spends just stuck out because of the caveats you put around it. The guide as a whole does a good job of remaining neutral and just trying to educate the reader rather than saying "do this", that spot felt out of place.

I'm sorry I missed 5x1 in the top section, it eluded me.

#56 Feya

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 09:14 PM

I had a theory discussion last night on the benefits of Trauma (heroic or otherwise) last night for a raid. It seems to be of little value to anyone but druids (our constant raid-blanketing would yield the greatest number of procs). Yet at the same time to maximize effective healing from it, you'd likely need a paladin spamming it on the melee for it to be of any significant benefit to our healing. The proc itself is what, 1500 health over 6 seconds? Is it worth taking an inferior stat'd weapon for a proc that will likely yield little actual effective healing?

Wouldn't you be better off, not gemming for sp/haste and using pure spellpower gems tied with a weapon that actually helps us get to our haste cap? I'm a big fan of procs, they add some minor "woohoo" value to a fight that would otherwise be identical to the last time we raided it. At the same time, I can't help but think Blizzard is merely playing with procs because in Cataclysm they won't have all the same stats (haste/spellpower/etc) to put on weapons (instead relying on purely int/stam/str/spir/etc). The same could be said for Abacus, which someone mentioned was a BiS for us; I don't see how an addtional proc heal makes it BiS when mana regen would be far more useful (from a Solace or what not).

#57 Hamlet

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 09:22 PM

See 1261 and 1265 here: http://elitistjerks....temization/p51/

#58 Kirbie44

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 03:40 PM

  • Currently re-writing the talent section to include a base/core build - then detailing the talents to choose. I will try to keep this as unbiased as I can, as I am a huge Revitalize advocate. 11/0/50 Taking out the point in Empowered Touch for your basic 50 restoration points. Elaborating on Natural Perfection, Living Seed, Revitalize, Empowered Touch, Nature's Grace, and Celestial Focus.

  • Looked at the Idols, and it was too "opinionated" or whatever you would call it. Changed it... and most likely should add the Duck for mid fight mana swapping.

I am currently looking for some UI suggestions. I use Grid + GridStatusHots + GridRaidIcons. I can go in briefly on these, but no other mod I use is Restoration Druid specific. AKA Dominos/AGU/etc. I understand a balance and organized UI is important to healing, so it deserves a good look at. Thinking inside the box is a good article that I will link in this section for sure.

Also for useful macros. I have basic mouse overs. I can show how to make one, but are their other macro's that would prove useful? NS/HT obviously too. Shadowmeld+Flightform :D

And again, looking for maybe a parse from a druid with Trauma, on say Twins + 1 other fight like NRB. Prefer Heroic versions. Along the lines with the legendary and a parse where you are the only one with it. No big deal, as it is outdated and most likely not being sought out by many anymore.

Last note: Trauma discussion should stick to the other threads. As well as most others. Room for LS/Revitalize/talents etc will be reviewed in other threads now as well. I said I was changing the talents to try to make it less controversial. Try to keep replies from straying too far away from suggestions/errors/details about the guide. Nobody has gone far off at all, and again, I thank everyone for their time and suggestions, you are all doing a good job helping me so far, in this thread and in tells.
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#59 Ogbar

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 04:03 PM

I will edit the macro into this post when I am home and have it in front of me but the macro to resolve wildgrowth targeting issues for mousover is worth including.

#60 Fallenangel

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 04:23 PM

  • Currently re-writing the talent section to include a base/core build - then detailing the talents to choose. I will try to keep this as unbiased as I can, as I am a huge Revitalize advocate. 11/0/50 Taking out the point in Empowered Touch for your basic 50 restoration points. Elaborating on Natural Perfection, Living Seed, Revitalize, Empowered Touch, Nature's Grace, and Celestial Focus.


Note that 14/0/57 (which isn't even in the OP) is very likely to have 2/2 ET and 2/3 LS. Similarly, a 18/05/53 doesn't have ET at all. So even this bare-bones spec is not truly a baseline for all resto specs.




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