Jump to content


Photo

Druid Itemisation: Druid Gear Design


  • Please log in to reply
20 replies to this topic

#1 Vascariz

Vascariz

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 11 posts

Posted 01 October 2006 - 10:57 PM

The hardest thing about druid itemisation is the ability to cater for Balance, Feral and Restoration specs but at the same time making gear viable for shapeshifts BUT without over-powering the item.
The idea here is to present a system to ponder and then have suggestions to IMPROVE the system. One should not offer critcisms unless you offer an alternative, a balance or an improvement. Thank you.

This is my FIRST time posting here so please be gentle!

The current system:

Gear has a huge list of +stats which are in total greater than the average gear but being spread out is worse than the average gear.
Gear is split into the three forms and druids have to compete with other classes who gain priority as the best gear accessible is prioritised to another class usually. Leather - rogues; Cloth dps - mages/warlocks.
Furthermore, collecting 3 complete sets of gear is not viable in a normal guild situation.
Shapeshifting is a penalty for the ability to change forms so let's make the penalty JUSTIFIED.

The new system:

Change 1:

Allow different forms to gain bonuses from irrelevant stats but with a 25% penalty

Example - a +15str, +15int, +15sta and +15 spi item in bear form provides that +int is treated as +str and +spi is treated as +sta. Thus in feral bear it is a + (15 + (0.75*15) str and + (15 + (0.75*15) sta item thus +26.25.

Moonkin: +str/agi is treated as +int and +sta is treated as +spi
Bear form: +int is treated as +str and +spi is treated as +sta
Cat form: +int is treated as + agi and +spi is treated as +sta

But all with a 25% penalty

Rationale: this allows blizzard to make use of their multi-stat items more effectively to ensure druids do have itemisation while the 25% penalty ensures that there is no abuse of the system (stacking +int gear in cat form e.g.).

Change 2:

Allow different forms to gain bonuses from +crit and +dam but at a 50% penalty to the latter

Example1: You have an item which provides +2% spell crit and + 60 healing
Thus in moonkin form it would prove +2% spell crit and +30 damage
In Feral form it would provide +2% crit and +15 damage
In restoration it would remain +2% spell crit and +60 healing

Example2: You have an item which provides +2% spell hit, +30 spell dam and + 30 healing
In moonkin it would remain +2% spell hit but become +45 spell damage
In Feral form it would provide +2% hit and +30 damage (as both spell dam and healing get a 50% penalty)
In restoration it would provide +2% spell hit and +45 healing

Example3: You have an item which provides +2% melee crit, +50AP (I NEED INPUT HERE - I do not have the data for this)

ASSUMPTION - +AP on items is generally equivalent to +spell damage/healing. On armor pieces I believe this to be the case but the +AP maces give a huge bonus not totally in line with +spell damage or healing on staffs etc. But let's assume in general and on balance it is equivalent - so adjustments will be made with more data.

In moonkin form it would provide +2% spell crit and +25 spell damage
In feral form it would remain +2% melee crit and +50AP
In restoration form it would provide +2% spell crit and +25 to healing

Conclusion:

This is my solution to druid itemisation AND shapeshifting.
The solution cannot merely be designing a distinct set for each form as one cannot change gear during shapeshift and it is not viable for 1 druid to compete and get 3 different sets in a guild. That is the nature of gear distribution in most guilds esp under DKP.
The penalties mean one form is still preferred but shapeshifting to another form allows you to be still viable in that form so shifting from healing to bear form is actually now viable without totally gimping one of those roles.

Possible issues:

One requires moonkin form to get the +spell damage conversions. This is to ensure that moonkin remains a viable form. It would be too overpowered to allow the balance tree to gain the conversions without having to change forms. I decided to keep human form as restoration form as one can have a very viable healing build without tree form which is a 41 pt talent verse moonkin which is merely a 31 pt talent

[

b]Blizzard has been kind of abandoning the multi-stat system but this system works well without a multi-stat system. It would be more innovative and effective if there were more multi-stat items reintroduced.[/b]

Oh and a proviso what it does not solve is druid itemisation compared to other classes.
Example: The total bonuses from a feral piece may still be less than a rogue but this is something entirely up to Blizzard.

#2 mynciboi

mynciboi

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 01 October 2006 - 11:52 PM

Personally I was hoping for some int->ap mechanic to give some "caster-gear"->"feral-performance" synergy, which would provide better scaling as well as maybe stopping rogues and ferals fighting over the same gear. Instead they gave a str->+heal talent for "feral-gear"->"caster-performance" synergy. Which is something I guess, but it suggests to me that they might depart from the idea weaksauce hybrid sets and give more pure feral gear. If I could run DPS and situational-offtank in the same gear I'd be pretty happy.

#3 Vascariz

Vascariz

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 11 posts

Posted 02 October 2006 - 12:05 AM

Well the problem with providing a set for each build is that it is no longer a hybrid. The druid is merely a sub-class which lingers beneath other classes.
Yes druid bears are good but no you will not see (on average) a guild with 3 druid bears and no prot speccd warriors or 4 feral droods instead of 4 rogues.
I think its something we have to live with and hence I suggest something which will improve the overall situation of druids as hybrids and making them more raid viable.

Furthermore, the problem is less druid bears which are starting to be established in raids but examining the more hybrid situations of:
Cat/resto, Balance/resto etc etc. Atm balance/resto is resto in raid balance in grinding. Moonkin druids being rare.

Oh btw yes I'm a warrior but my gf is a druid in our guild doing Naxx (not very far in I admit) and this is from discussing with and observinng druids in raids and the problems they face attempting to be a hybrid.

#4 Vascariz

Vascariz

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 11 posts

Posted 02 October 2006 - 05:14 AM

Just wondering if this is workable as a concept and if anyone could help with numbers based on current data sets... e.g. current T2/3 Druid gear verse nontiered leather gear verse current T2/3 mage gear. Thanks!

#5 Maynard

Maynard

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 263 posts

Posted 02 October 2006 - 06:23 AM

I think that it's difficult to say whether or not itemisation will be appropriate for druids in the expansion. ap/agil/stam leather may become redundant even for feral druids if encounter design forces them to say, stop tanking when their add is dead - or stop DPS and throw a few heals during a heavy environmental damage pulse.

I also heard a rumour a while ago (sorry I can't provide a better source :P) that 'meta sockets' will alleviate some itemisation problems. Say you have a weapon with a metasocket that says "all red sockets now provide +3 healing", you can switch that in when healing, and switch to a weapon with "all red sockets now provide +3 feral AP" when going DPS or you need threat for tanking.

There's also the new stat modifier on the priest atiesh which fixes a few more problems too - basically it makes dmg/heal in favour of the +heal. It'll be interesting to see if this stat is just reserved for some items or used more widespread, however.

Finally, meleekin may make "hybrid leather" the ideal choice for PvPers of all specs, feral druids, and balance druids. It may even end up being the case that the only types of leather are "hybrid leather" and "healing leather".

Lastly - one thing I've always found a little frustrating, having played both a druid and a hunter to 60, is the presumption that only druids have bagspace problems. On my hunter I carry a PvP set and a PvE set, and an entire quiver full of arrows (in addition to potentially resist gear). Bag space is a general problem facing a good number of players, not just druids.

#6 mynciboi

mynciboi

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 02 October 2006 - 08:44 AM

Bag space is a problem for a lot of people, but particular classes (druid/hunter/warlock?) professions (enchanter/engineer/alchemist?) and roles (main tank/healer/pvper?) can make it much worse. A druid MT might have high a high armour set, a high sta set, a couple of resist sets, a grinding set, a healing set, a pvp set... Ouch! In any case it’s not just bag space, it’s the DKP to buy the stuff in the first place. It’s not nice to be a class that’s intrinsically lewtwhoring.

As for the OP, I don't think it's workable to have gear that would be good for all forms. For one thing not many druids would use all five forms, for another blizz'd probably have to do the same for other role-changing classes (and preists and warriors).

Also the way the feral talents go +ap gear should probably be avoided in place of +stats gear.

#7 Vascariz

Vascariz

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 11 posts

Posted 02 October 2006 - 08:47 AM

The issue isn't about bag space. It never was and was never raised as such. It isn't the fact that you cannot hold 3 full sets of different gear. My warrior has to hold a tanking gear and resistance gears (lol I have no dps gear as of yet).
It is that with the dkp system you cannot compete to gain 2 full sets of gear let alone 3. And even if you could one cannot switch them as you switch forms.

Now before the typical: oh don't cry you can't be 3 classes in one go specialise llike other classes etc etc - I am making the assumption that we are best at none but able to do all. Hence, it is not feasible to specialise as we will always be inferior to other classes. Our viability lies in our variability and atm its our ability to heal, cast dots, innervate and brez and with the proper gear to bear tank. Furthermore, we can only do one role per shapeshift. It is not viable to assume one will be wasting their mana continually shapeshifting especially as one always has to return to the human form before attempting another shapeshift.
Also, this does not change the fact your gear will still favour one talent build type - moonkin, cat form, bear form or healing. In other forms you will suffer a 25-50% penalty so you will not be at 100% efficiency in all 3 shapeshifts.

I understand BC may alleviate some of those problems but from your information it seems barely enouogh. Mere weapon changes I believe is not sufficient even with sockets which really offer superficial bonuses in relation to the bonuses gear provides.

I think that it's difficult to say whether or not itemisation will be appropriate for druids in the expansion. ap/agil/stam leather may become redundant even for feral druids if encounter design forces them to say, stop tanking when their add is dead - or stop DPS and throw a few heals during a heavy environmental damage pulse.

Could you run this through me again? How will this make ap/agi/sta redundant? And how does this weaken my proposed changes? It seems to support my changes in that one has to change forms and perform different tasks and thus the inability to change gear during shapeshift make it almost redundant to even change forms as in your new form your gear is completely useless to your task and makes you unable to perform your task even as a backup healer or backup tank or backup dps. I may not be getting your point so if you could run it past me again it would be great!

#8 Vascariz

Vascariz

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 11 posts

Posted 02 October 2006 - 08:54 AM

As for the OP, I don't think it's workable to have gear that would be good for all forms. For one thing not many druids would use all five forms, for another blizz'd probably have to do the same for other role-changing classes (and preists and warriors).

I think there is a distinction between gear which is perfect in all forms and gear which is great in one form but provides benefits in other forms. This means that if you decide (or your guild decides) you are a healer then your gear will be essentially healing gear BUT you will be able to perform as a rudimentary off tank and additional dps when required. You will be functioning perhaps at 50-70% of other classes but I believe it is the nature of druids to be able to back up the raid in such times thus a hybrid.
Atm if an offtank is required or additional dps it is not even worth wasting your breath to call for the druid as they will be so inept in their healing gear.

If you were to get 2 full sets of different gear then you could adjust your gear according to what is best in the fight - e.g. you may only be tanking for a short time and then healing so you'd take your healing gear but with these changes you'd be able to tank to an extent.
This is similar to a DPS warrior putting on a shield as that is sufficient (if using plate dps gear) to offtank for that brief period of time.
If they need to tank for a much longer period of time they'd both elect to wear their tanking gear.

#9 Aravlis

Aravlis

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 4 posts

Posted 02 October 2006 - 08:56 AM

I always thought an appropriate solution would be the mechanic they've used for the epic priest staff. Just allow the option of changing a piece of gear from one aspect to another (healing gear can change to feral gear and/or to damage gear). Put it on a certain cooldown (anywhere from 5 minutes to 24 hours) to prevent people from getting the best of both worlds any time they want. Alternatively, make it such that you can't change the item while in combat.

I don't specifically know how "information" intensive something like that would be. The question of sockets and enchants becomes an issues as well. Perhaps allow an enchant for each version. I seriously doubt they'll do it, probably because of the aforementioned "information on the server" requirements, but it'd be interesting nonetheless.

#10 Vascariz

Vascariz

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 11 posts

Posted 02 October 2006 - 09:10 AM

My suggestion was along those lines Aravlis but without placing a timer limit or restricting changing gears in combat.
I think the inability to change gears in combat but the ability to shapeshift are in direct contradiction. I understand one does not want to overpower the ability to shapeshift so I have added the penalty system and no need to change gear unless your role dramatically changes (as in the examples in my prior post). However, one must realise there are TWO mechanisms already in place to prevent abuse. One, is the mana cost of shapeshifting and forcing people to change into the human form which is a time cost as well on some transitions. Two, is the restriction of talent points. One cannot be a dps druid on par with mages, a feral bear on par with tanks and a healer on par with priests with only 61 talent pts (in BC). Hell it is arguable one can even be on par with those classes with all 61 pts and gear dedicated to that role - and it shouldn't be IF we truly are hybrids and a system like mine is in place. Then one would be 80-90% one role and 50-60% the other and be raid viable.

The cooldown concept is interesting and may work in conjunction with my proposals to further limit any possible abuse and a ban on changing items in combat is ALREADY in place (except weapons but only weapons do not make a role) and this is a way of working around that without overpowering the class - and it just goes back to the original problem of trying to collect 3 sets of gear in a progressing guild.

#11 Boevis

Boevis

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 1,284 posts

Posted 02 October 2006 - 11:04 AM

Then one would be 80-90% one role and 50-60% the other and be raid viable.

We are currently capable of, with varied gear, doing any 2 roles 'cross form' (caster/animal) at combined 125% (ex 95% tank, 30% healer) This is fairly simple and would only take just over 1 set of gear for your desired % split. One you are done tanking, nothing else really matters, I guess prot warriors can go in an execute? I'm really not seeing us lacking at switching from one thing to something completely different when the other hybrids are just as capable, and no one else even comes close.

I'd go so far as to say that 2 'like form' roles (DPS/Tank) can be performed at a combined 150%-175%. As an example, I can do 500 DPS with my catform gear, a simple Weapon Swap brings me to 10k armor in bearform 15% dodge and over 7.5k health - good enough to off-tank. Alternatively, in my tanking gear (15.5k armor 9k health 19% Dodge) can weapon swap to get 1.5k AP and an easy 400 DPS, certainly non-trivial. The better Moonkin items have enough mana regen and high +damage/Healing to suit any necessary healing (though mana is an issue, but mana is always an issue ...)

I don't think we need a new mechanism. We just need the gear available to us so we can make the choice of what % of what role we want to do.

+Feral Skill would go a long way to help :)

#12 Vascariz

Vascariz

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 11 posts

Posted 02 October 2006 - 11:13 AM

Well you are using very specific examples of bear/cat which SHARE a talent tree and stats.
Balance/Resto helps you heal better in certain circumstances it certainly does not allow you to dps or justify you using your mana dpsing.

Plus your maths or adding 90% + 35% is flawed. You are NOT doing BOTH at the same time...
If you are 50% tanking and 50% healing you are functioning only at 62.5% (doing maths on the fly) compared to another member in your raid who is functioning at 100% all the time.

While my changes will allow you to be operating at about 80% which is more appealing for a raid. As your versatility more than makes up for your lost 20%.

#13 enshula

enshula

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 181 posts

Posted 02 October 2006 - 12:01 PM

Check out the leaked druid arena sets, they have an interisting way of making stats which can never be used together priced seperately. Think of the maces with +ap for forms but on an entire set of gear.

Blizzard seems to understand these problems for druids and seems to be fixing it. Maybe you wont be happy at the amount of 'free' stats you get, it seems to be about 70% to me but its better than nothing.

I still get pissed off seeing first the paladin items in BWL which are horrible. In a loot system with no penalties to picking stuff up from BWL we still shard fallen crusader belts to people who are using the ZG set belt for pvp for example. I hate the aq items as well since putting +healing and +strength on the same item and pricing fully is dumb in my opinion. And as far as the naxx items go the ones with +spell damage and gimpadin stats are also screwy given the poor spellcasting coefficients the gain from ap would be higher except from the exponent in item costs.

Compared to those i love what the druids got with the arena sets.

#14 Vascariz

Vascariz

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 11 posts

Posted 02 October 2006 - 12:45 PM

Okay I havn't checked the druid arena set as of yet.
Not to keen on relying on alphas but I'll get onto it! Thanks!

#15 darthgrimm

darthgrimm

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 70 posts

Posted 02 October 2006 - 12:47 PM

The new talents help druids alot too.

The +healing when going out of bear form

The imp Leader of the Pack talent.

And with the addition of sockets you can put +healing on your feral gear and be a mediocre dps and a mediocre healer.

You HONESTLY cant expect to do competitive dps and switch out and heal just like a resto druid/shaman

#16 Vascariz

Vascariz

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 11 posts

Posted 02 October 2006 - 01:55 PM

The +healing when going out of bear form

The imp Leader of the Pack talent.

Ummm those are actually quite pathetic... very very bad examples. You can go check the druid forums for the maths of why imp leade r of the pack is quite useless and the +healing out of feral only lasts 6 seconds which with lag amounts to about 2-3 healing touch tops.
Ummm so yeah not sure where you are coming from with that.

And "You HONESTLY cant expect to do competitive dps and switch out and heal just like a resto druid/shaman" COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY misrepresents EVERYTHING I have typed. So please read it over.

#17 Kaubel

Kaubel

    Sledgehammer Emeritus

  • Guild Members
  • 24,561 posts

Posted 02 October 2006 - 08:57 PM

You can go check the druid forums for the maths of why imp leade r of the pack is quite useless.

I tried to warn you people. Penalty box, one week.

Once again, don't say something is useless when you've yet to try it out personally. (Really, damn near everything in this world has a purpose at one point or another.) And I know you haven't tried it personally because alpha testers are still bound by the NDA. Lastly, I don't give a shit what "the maths" say over in that circus of retards.

Don't.
Claim.
Untested.
Content.
Is.
Worthless.

I've been trying to concentrate on studying for my Proof Methods test tomorrow, and all I can think of is your hotness, radiating out from the pixels on my monitor, seared straight into my neurons.


#18 mynciboi

mynciboi

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 02 October 2006 - 09:20 PM

The "Maths" that dude cites so enthusiastically is from Tangedyn, *fanfare* theory-crafter extraordinaire! No really he's done some very good stuff. That's not to say he came to exactly the same conclusions as Vascariz though ;-)

IMO ILotP is a great idea, it's just in it's current incarnation the numbers seem a little lackluster. Also the way you get more healing out of the 1st point you put in than the two subsequent points put together seems... odd to me. Anyways I'll be putting 1 point into it.

</furious theorycrafting>

#19 Kruthal

Kruthal

    Information Overload

  • Members
  • 458 posts

Posted 02 October 2006 - 10:17 PM

The "Maths" that dude cites so enthusiastically is from Tangedyn, *fanfare* theory-crafter extraordinaire! No really he's done some very good stuff. That's not to say he came to exactly the same conclusions as Vascariz though ;-)

IMO ILotP is a great idea, it's just in it's current incarnation the numbers seem a little lackluster. Also the way you get more healing out of the 1st point you put in than the two subsequent points put together seems... odd to me. Anyways I'll be putting 1 point into it.

</furious theorycrafting>

Thread in question: http://forums.worldo...299106097&sid=1

I've taken the liberty of quoting Tangedyn's maths here, hoping he won't mind too much:

Everyone is saying that Improved Leader of the Pack will be providing the druid's group with 2% hp heal every 6 seconds. In truth, the number is far from that. You get the 2% hp heal every 6 seconds only if you ALWAYS crit immediately after the 6 seconds is over from the previous effect, and this cannot be guaranteed unless you have 100% crits. So with less than 100% crits, what is the average time you will have to wait between ILOTP procs? Fortunately the math is pretty simple.

Ave Time Between Procs = Attack_Speed * Ave_Attacks_To_Crit + 6

Ave_Attacks_To_Crit is basically 1/Crit_Chance, using the mean of an exponential distribution with Lambda = Crit_Chance, where Crit_Chance = Crit_Percent/100%

** Ave Time Between Procs = Attack_Speed / Crit_Chance + 6

Therefore, a cat with 25% crit rate and attack speed of 1.0 will proc ILOTP once every 10 seconds.

Attack Speed can also be calculated for Dual Wielding and energy based special attacks. For multiple attack sources:

Attack_Speed = 1 / (1/Attack_Speed_1 + 1/Attack_Speed_2 + 1/...)

A feral druid (1.0) using shred (4.8) will have an attack speed of 1 / (1/1.0 + 1/4.8) = .8276
With a 25% crit rate, this druid will be procing ILOTP once every 9.3 seconds.

A rogue DWing AQR (2.8) and Iblis (1.6) with sinister strikes (4.0) will have an attack speed of 1 / (1/1.6 + 1/2.8 + 1/4) = 0.8116
With a 30% crit rate, this rogue will be procing ILOTP once every 8.7 seconds.

An arms warrior swinging Ashkandi (3.5) and mortal striking every 6 seconds (6.0), with a crit% of 25% will be procing ILOTP once every 14.8 seconds.

A hunter with Ashje'thul using the 10 second cycle (3 auto-shots, 1 multishot, 1 aimed shot in 10 seconds, average attack speed 2.0) with a crit% of 30% will be procing ILOTP once every 12.7 seconds.

It's rather more complex for a dagger rogue because the chances for crits increases when backstab is used, but we can estimate by doubling the attack speed of the backstabs. A rogue with Perdition Dagger (1.8) and Core Hound Tooth (1,6) Backstabbing (3.0) with a crit% of 30% will be procing ILOTP once every 8.2 seconds.

Let's assume the best case scenario, someone with 100% crit chance and 10k hp. We can expect him to be healed for 0.02 * 10000 / 6 = 33.3 hp per second

Now let's compare against Shadow Priests providing Improved Vampiric Embrace, which is heals for 30% of shadow damage dealt to each party member. In order to beat a Feral Druid providing 33.3hp of healing per second, the Shadow Priest needs to do 111.1 Shadow DPS. Mind Flay (Rank 5) available at level 52 is able to provide 110 Shadow DPS. A level 44 priest combining Mind Flay (Rank 4) Shadow Word: Pain (Rank 6) can provide 115 Shadow DPS.

At the same time, with Improved Shadow Weaving, Shadow Priests will also be providing 5% magic damage increase to the raid (much better than 3% crit to one party), and 20% shadow damage increase to the raid (better than 25% bleed damage increase).

It should be obvious that Improved Leader of the Pack and Mangle's debuff are seriously underpowered in providing Feral Raid viability, compared to what a Shadow Priest can give.

The shadow priest comparison is perhaps a bit over the top, but at least it puts the healing part into perspective, all other issues aside. It's of course still just theorycrafting about untested content, but still, the numbers are interesting IMO (druid alt =P).

If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire... the BB-Team.


#20 Kaubel

Kaubel

    Sledgehammer Emeritus

  • Guild Members
  • 24,561 posts

Posted 02 October 2006 - 11:03 PM

That's my point really. There's a difference between:

"Just looking at it hypothetically and how it's worded, it's hard for me to see how effective LotP will turn out, or if it'll ultimately be worth the cost. I guess we'll have to wait and see."

and...

"BLU PLZ! I want answers! Because according to these mathematical formulas I've pulled out of my ass, LotP is completely worthless and I won't be getting it EVER! <RAGE>"

I've been trying to concentrate on studying for my Proof Methods test tomorrow, and all I can think of is your hotness, radiating out from the pixels on my monitor, seared straight into my neurons.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users